JerryvonKramer

There will be no further changes to Bret's score. More ratings forthcoming.

Bret didn't have a memorable match with Michaels? Come on now. Lawler stuff was one of the few shining lights of 93. Brainbusters match is one of the highlights of late 80s WWF, and Islanders stuff has been given some new light by Kelly and Marty on tag teams back again podcast. My mistake on Fujinami, it should be Tiger Mask and is from 1982 and I reviewed it here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20932-80s-catchup-thread/?p=5697441 I recall Bret having a pretty good showing in New Japan and must have had a mental slip (NJ 82 = Fujinami). He was one of Tiger Mask's better opponents.

Hell, let's do it. See what happens.

So what you are saying is that Bret is a 9 or even a perfect 10 for "variety"? As things stand, this would make Bret top 10.

It turns out Bret's original low-seeming score was because I can't add up. MoS, I do not dislike the Attitude era, I have fond memories of it and much prefer it to both the 94-5 time frame and the Smackdown Six era. I just haven't had a strong desire to revisit that stuff for whatever reason. And I think a lot of people are like that. Austin should do pretty well. Rock might struggle but both are perfect 10s for intangibles.

Also, for some reason my maths was wrong on Bret and his real score is 40, not 35. Which currently puts him pretty high. Despite OJ's campaigning, he's not getting those matches vs. Kid, Taker and Diesel.

The DiBiase bout is the one from Odessa in 89. When I first came online it was somewhat hyped, and I'd be surprised, for example, if Will and he crew left it off the DVDR 150 set. I'm pretty sure it was on the original set. In fact, I just looked it up and it finished #17 in the voting. Steamboat match is one that could be included. Forgot about that one for sure.

Backlund is an oversight for sure. I've included him and that gives him a plus one. I don't like that match as much as other people, but taking the whole angle into account, it passes the Virgil test. Bulldog is in there as one of the Bulldogs. The others do not make my "memorable" criteria. Yokozuna might be a borderline case. The matches with Taker and Diesel do not amount to more than "he worked them" for me. Taker match is not memorable for any reason but the finish and title win. I mean it is actively boring for long stretches before that. I don't think Bret is a miracle worker in that way. Others here value the fact he changed his game plan vs. Big men, but 1) I'm not sure how true that is, still aims for sharpshooter basically from what I can see and 2) even if it is, I don't know if a tiny bit of basic common sense in strategy like that deserves any points. Most guys adjusted to face big men. Hogan did. The criteria for that category is "memorable". To me, Bret's memorable stuff down that 94-7 run is Owen, Austin, Michaels.

I watched two extremely good Hase / Sasaki tags earlier, see review thread. One features one of the best FIP sequences I've ever seen.

I'm reworking Bret, rating seems a bit off, just giving him from 85 for longevity and +1 for intangibles, 4 was too low. Bret Hart Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 3/3 +1 (for execution) = 9 Intangibles 5 Great matches 7 Length of Peak (85-97) = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Calgary, WWF, WCW) +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 5 1. Tiger Mask, 2. British Bulldogs, 3. Demolition, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Mr. Perfect, 7. Roddy Piper, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Owen Hart, 10. Shawn Michaels, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Benoit, 13. Islanders, 14. Backlund, 15. Steamboat, 16. 123 Kid, 17. Undertaker, 18. Diesel Variety = 18 opponents = 9 42

I've basically been watching Hase's greatest hits, and ideally I'd also want a sense of what a "typical album track" is like of his too. However, I think you can get a sense of what a guy is like over 10+ matches. I have a good idea of what his go-to spots are. I've seen him work face, heel, bully / favourite, plucky underdog, singles, tags, as younger guy and as grizzled vet. I can add some more meat to that with further watching, but I think the core of the case is likely those matches I've just reviewed.

Hiroshi Hase and Keiji Mutoh vs. Vader and Bam Bam Bigelow (3/1/92) If this is any good it will help flesh out that "variety" category. A lot of beef on TEAM BEEF here. I have some slight worries about Bigelow bringing this down, and ... well, what sort of mood is Mutoh going to be in? It's those two who start out and Bam Bam with some decent crowd interaction. He also dives over the top rope to splash Mutoh. Vader vs. Hase now. Massive back suplex and fourteen (!!!) headbutts from Vader now. Trademark corner offense. Lariat. Splash. Hase comes back shouting shit at Vader with slaps. He's actually shouting "son of a bitch!" at him over and over again. Ha ha! With such amazing charisma, maybe Hase could think about a career more squarely in the public eye ... Vader slam. Bam Bam comes in. Headbutt. But Hase manages to take over offense and targets the right leg. Sound strategy to keep the big man grounded. Double Indian deathlock -- Funks bros spot. But Bigelow comes back with a suplex on Mutoh and we go to a chinlock. DDT seems to impale Mutoh's head into the canvas. Double suplex on Bam Bam now. Vader back in and he's dominating Hase again. Clothesline. Powerbomb. Two only. Bigelow in and again loses the advantage. Mutoh actually gets a backdrop on him at one point which is impressive looking. I'm a little surprised by just how much Bigelow is working as "junior partner" here, he's been the weak link a lot. It's almost like watching a Russians tag where Uncle Ivan consistently loses advantage whenever he's in. Vader in and powerbombs Mutoh. Splash. A certain symmetry to the match, this was Hase ten minutes ago. Vader goes to the top rope, and lands a move. Cover gets two only. Clothesline. Bigelow goes to the top now. Flying headbutt. Cover gets two only. Inzaguri by Bigelow, two only. He's a big man to be doing those spots. Hase is very vocal on the apron. He's a real US-style worker in many ways, I think he would have gotten over in the US. He seems like he grew up watching American wrestling. Mutoh has taken a real pounding here. Vader back in delivering the blows. Mutoh comes back with some fighting spirit. Hits a back suplex on Vader. Missile dropkick. German! A German on Vader! Hase in with his rock bottom suplex thing. Cover gets ... Oooh it was close, a two only. Stereo splashes on Mutoh now. Surely that's three? No! Two only. Backslide by Mutoh! Two only. There's been a lot of false finish spam in this one. But they have been effective ones. But then Vader gets a chokeslam, on Mutoh for three. I did not much enjoy this match. Vader seemed pretty short of ideas by the second half and for the amount of punishment the two beats dished out, it didn't seem to have much lasting impact on either Hase or Mutoh. I mean the powerbomb was treated almost like a transitional move at times. Hase really faded out of this match, he never got to tag in again and was stranded on the apron for the last 15 minutes seemingly. The finishing stretch had some hot nearfalls, but a few too many of them for my tastes. 90s New Japan feels like the forerunner to modern WWE main event style in that respect. There's more of a self-conscious sense of drama to the action than what we see in All Japan. This whole match didn't make a lot of sense to me. The offense of the big men lacked lasting impact, who bumped around a bit too readily themselves at times too. I don't really know if a match featuring Vader and Bam Bam Bigelow should be going 28 minutes. **1/2 Hiroshi Hase and Keiji Mutoh vs. Vader and Bam Bam Bigelow (5/1/92) So expectations have been set low for this. Things can only get better I suppose. Hase is going into it with his head bandaged. I sense blood is coming. Bigelow is looking smug. Incidentally, I am in the camp that thinks Great Muta = cool, Keiji Mutoh = gimp. I mean even his cool elbow drops look a tiny bit lamer when he's not in the gimmick. Hase locks up with Vader, who is not wearing his mask today. Brutal short arm clothesline from him. He tries a second and Hase counters into an arm hold. Cool spot. Punches in the corner and Hase is still shouting. I love this "fuck you I'm not taking this lying down" stuff from Hase and it is more heated somehow here than the "son of a bitch" stuff in the previous match which had a more comedic feel. Two clotheslines send Vader down. Belly to belly from Hase. Cover gets two. Full arm drag and twist. Mutoh in with the springboard elbow. Bam Bam in. Takes a tumble to the outside. Hase back in. Bigelow cuts off kicks with a headbutt. DDT by Bigelow. Back and forth a bit. Mutoh nails a German. Two only. Hase back in and working on Vader's arm. Now Bigelow rips off Hase's bandage and he has a lot of blood. Man that's a deep cut. Nasty work too pressing down on it by Bigelow. Tilt-a-whirl backbreaker from him (wow). Vader in with a powerbomb. Flying headbutt from the top by Bigelow. Hase is taking a beating here. Bam Bam bites the cut now. He has Hase's blood on his face and mouth. Gross. Hase like a madman comes back with some headbutts. Pretty long finishing stretch during which Hase actually hits the Northern Lights suplex in Vader, and during which Bigelow reverses a double suplex attempt. Both cool spots. This was a dramatic improvement over the previous bout and a tremendous FIP performance from Hase who did everything he could to hold this match together. Superb selling, superb fighting spirit hope spots, just an all round great performance from him. Has the crowd eating out of the palm of his hand. I think the finishing stretch lost direction at times and could have been cut down another five minutes maybe. This is probably Bigelow's career match I'd have thought and as good as a Monsters vs. Plucky faces tag as you'll find. The blood helps too. Another great match and performance for the Hase resume. ****

He's made a big impact. Sometimes you just "know" aka the Jim Breaks effect.

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32747-hiroshi-hase/ I don't know if I'll be the highest voter on him, but I can't see how he's not going to rank above Taue for me, and given how many great matches Taue was in, I can see him finishing outside the top 30. Which means Hase is likely going to be top 20. Definition of a "super worker" who can do it all, and charismatic as hell to boot.

Hiroshi Hase and Kensuke Sasaki vs. Keiji Muto and Masa Chono (11/1/90) More Hase vs. Musketeers here. I'll be watching some of this tag run tonight. Here him and Sasaki -- who has awful hair -- are clear underdogs against the reigning champs. 1/10 on the Hase tache rating here. He needed to work on that more in 1990. I've always thought that Chono LOOKS cool. Sasaki is a bit like a Japanese Steiner brother in my mind. I think because I do love that match from the New Japan supershow which is a total spotfest slice of heaven and that's where I first saw him. This is worked a little more on the mat than that one, although it's still pretty bomb heavy and at 15 minutes, is basically an all-action sprint. Mutoh is particularly vicious in the finishing stretch, nails a nasty bulldog on Hase. But they get the upset win and a nice moment after a bridging belly-to-belly from Hase. About on par with those Steiners tags I'm such a fan of and my standard rating for them ... ****1/2 Hiroshi Hase and Kensuke Sasaki vs. Shiro Koshinaka and Takayuki Iizuka (12/13/90) Speaking of the Steiners, Iizuka is he of head getting kicked in by them fame. We just saw Hase / Sasaki as underdogs, let's see how they are as the senior team and defending champs. I am also delighted: Hase has sorted that tache out since winning the belts! Hase seems to be cocky as hell now. So much of that natural charisma I've been talking about. They soon isolate Iizuka and Hase hits his giant swing and Rick Rude neckbreaker after a double suplex. Koshinaka in now and he manages to suplex Hase to the outside, big bump. I think Hase is pretty much a "super worker", kind of like a Steamboat in terms of athletic ability and workrate. Sasaki has to bail him out a few times as the challengers focus on his leg. Some very good selling from Hase throughout all of this. He's very expressive. Kicks Iizuka clean in the face to escape. Sasaki comes in and decks Iizuka now. Man, that kid was just made to be beaten up wasn't he! Hase is all cocky and heelish again. Both he and Sasaki are real dicks during this stretch dominating the youngster. Sasaki gets him in a scorpion and Iizuka is screaming with pain. They take turns stomping on his back. Brutal and awesome work! Boston crab from Hase now on the injured back. I fucking love heels dishing out punishment like this. Iizuka manages to get the hot tag though and Koshinka comes in with his super butt attacks. Hits a power bomb, but Sasaki breaks up the pin. Double drop kicks ahoy. Fisherman suplex by Iizuka gets two, after Hase makes a nonchalant save by sweeping his leg. Have to say Iizuka as the plucky young babyface against the odds has been great here. Sasaki catches Koshinka with a superplex and Hase goes for a German, but Koshinka reverses it into a full Nelson suplex. Two only! Very very hot nearfall! I popped. Another cover gets two only. Iizuka did a massive dive over the top rope during all of that too. Eventually Sasaki hits a running powerslam on Iizuka. And a sick sick armdrag for three. Absolutely fucking phenomenal match and one of the best Southern-tag-style matches I've ever seen. I'd put it on par with Furnas and Kroffat vs. Kobashi and Kickuchi (5/25/92) and Enforcers vs. Dustin / Steamboat from Clash 17 (11/19/91). Iizuka's FIP performance is right up there with either Kikuchi's or Steamboat's and Hase and Sasaki really being the offensive goods here. They also do well in the match structure to limit Koshinka's offense so that when he does hit his butt attacks, it means something. They basically work around him like the Midnight Express or DiBiase and Borne would work around JYD. Only, obviously, Koshinka has more ability than JYD. Great match and the second Hase match that looks likely to make the next iteration of my top 100 matches. Iizuka has to go on the shortlist of "greatest FIP workers ever". I'd love to know what Loss makes of this one. Didn't seem to be on yearbook. ****3/4 Hiroshi Hase vs. Kensuke Sasake (6/26/92) "Former tag team partners Big Boss Man and Akeem now have to face each other!" I don't know why but that call by Monsoon from Wrestlemania 6 is burned deep into my memory and I think of it whenever former tag partners have to face each other. Really intense stuff on the mat to start. Shades of Robinson vs. Bock with the sense of struggle. Hase pounds on the back of Sasaki's head while applying the waist lock from behind. It's the sort of matwork I enjoy. Sasaki comes back with the Royce Gracie style rear naked choke that seemed to be popular in New Japan at this time. He works it with some vigour and Hase's selling is top notch. Strikes now and Hase hits about 7 or 8 headbutts. This is really heated work. Sasaki is actually busted open after the headbutts. He comes back with a series of throws and a powerbomb. Back to the rear naked choke. A really gritty sense of intensity in this match. It is high drama. Hase replies with a desperation suplex. Three of those gnarly rock bottom suplex things in a row now. Four. Five. Ref checks on Sasaki. Hase is looking confident. Northern lights suplex! And that's all she wrote. Post-match he gets on the mic and taunts Sasaki. Masa Saito is on commentary! Terrific and heated matchup with a lot of intensity and drama. My only criticism is that it doesn't quite go long enough to "earn" the sense of having been in a total war that they are trying to sell after 12-3 minutes. It needed longer to tell that story. It's one of my gripes with modern WWE main event style, they try to sell epic when we haven't had epic. But aside from that, this is still a great match. And another feather in Hase's cap, which at this point has a fine ... Plumage. At this point, I feel I can say without much hesitation that I think Hase is a better wrestler than Akira Taue. So it will be interesting for sure to see where he will finish for me in the GWE 100. ****1/2

Reckon he'll finish above Hansen for you Matt?

My issue is that while it is true that Tito always gives 100% and makes it seem like winning is important, he was often doing it in midcard spots in okay matches that actually didn't mean anything. Whereas, let's say Rick Martel or Kobashi, were both often doing it in very good to all-time-classic matches that did mean something. I maintain that card positioning does matter. What are the top 20 Tito Santana matches not involving Greg Valentine?

Why though?

Top five working babyfaces: 5. Morton 4. Brisco 3. Martel 2. Steamboat 1. Kobashi Top five working aces: 5. Bret Hart 4. Fujinami 3. Lawler 2. Misawa 1. Jumbo Top five charismatic babyfaces: 5. Bruno 4. Dusty 3. Rock 2. Austin 1. Hogan Five other great babyfaces to think about: Rey Savage Shawn Michaels Kerry von Erich John Cena An area someone else needs to comment on: Lucha Tito has stiff competition.

I don't think Tito is in the top 5 best babyfaces.

I typed up the raw data for the rest of the big arena matches from 84. Must dash. Analysis later. May MSG - Schultz Kiel - Orndorff June Philly - Iron Sheik Kiel - Orndorff MSG / Boston / Pittsburgh - no match (carried by Slaughter vs. sheik) Quebec - Goulet LA - Orndorff July Philly - Orndorff Chicago - Studd Boston - Orndorff Meadowlands - Andre tag vs. Studd, Adonis, Murdoch Kiel - no match Pittsburgh - Orndorff MSG - Valentine Cap Centre - Orndorff August Philly - Valentine Boston - no match Toronto - Valentine Kiel - Steele LA - no match Chicago - Studd Pittsburgh - Orndorff Omni - Schultz MSG - no match September Kiel - Steele Philly - no match Boston - no match Detroit - Ventura Toronto - no match Pittsburgh - no match MSG - Studd (sub for Ventura) Kiel - Mr. Fuji Cap Centre - Orndorff Chicago - Steele October Omni - Studd Boston - Piper (first ever match) Toronto - no match Pittsburgh - Studd (sub for Ventura) Philly - Studd (sub for Ventura) Meadowlands - no match LA - Studd Cap Centre - no match Chicago - Studd Toronto - no match MSG - Studd St. Louis - Kamala (Andre subbed for Hogan) Omni - no match November Boston - Piper Pittsburgh - Studd Philly - no match Chicago - tag with Mad Dog Vachon vs. Fuji / Steele Cap Centre - no match Omni - no match MSG - no match LA - no match December Philly - no match Detroit - no match Cap Centre - no match Boston - no match Toronto - Volkoff (Hogan subbed for Slaughter) Meadowlands - Studd Chicago - no match Omni - Orndorff Kiel - Beefcake MSG - Iron Sheik

Would make a decent thread.

Bret gets value for smart in the ring and finishes, because look at the others in the WWF at the same time who both had Vince, Patterson and the WWF office. None of them are anywhere near his level or even stand out as particularly good at it. You don't think Savage was a great finish guy? I think if you thought about this for a bit you'd find there are a lot of great finishes to WWF matches in the period that Bret was active 85-97.

People don't tend to give Flair credit for finishes but if you look at his major matches they all have pretty interesting finishes. Luger Starrcade 88 springs to mind, but for some reason few people (other than Chad or I) talk about much else but the booking for those matches. Steamer finishes are all interesting. Flair had a finisher that never ended matches, so that means you get a whole host of different ones. I raise this because seems to me that Bret's five moves of doom were a lot more rote and routine than Flair finishes, which are ALOT more organic, it seems to me, and yet Bret gets the "smart worker" tag. There's a long thread about this somewhere Just my view.

I'd be interested to know your reasons for 1) including Bret in that sort of company and 2) putting him above Flair and Jumbo. In my view, Bret doesn't have the resume to be in that top most tier. Just doesn't have the matches or the career. And if you say "well matches just don't matter to me", then fine but why does the rest of the list look the way it does? If being a smart worker is the ultimate most important thing (for example), why isn't Bock your number 1? It's all your own list and that's all cool etc. etc., but if this process is to be in any way interesting, the reasoning is where that interest lies.