JerryvonKramer

If you take a look through the others I've provided lists for so far, you can see the sort of benchmarks I'm using and whether that match would be considered equivalent. The distinction between 19 and 20 is only significant insomuch as with Flair and Funk you can get there with EASE without even thinking, whereas with Jumbo it feels like more of a struggle. Or in other words, the equivalent of Flair's Kimura would finish about 30+ deep. But I have to put the cut off somewhere, and that is currently counting for just 1 point. If everyone is held to Flair's standard on "variety" very few people would be getting many points in that category at all, so 20 is the mark.

I can see the argument. And even though I am extremely lukewarm on the match, I said I would let Kawada have Albright. This is why I have Kumura as a borderline for inclusion and why I mentioned that match on the show. I will go through the Jumbo variety picks now, for you to see. 20 is the mark for him to get to the perfect 10 ... 1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Brisco, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Race, 5. Baba, 6. Kimura, 7. Billy Robinson, 8. Bockwinkel, 9. Slater, 10. Flair, 11. Kerry von Erich, 12. Martel, 13. Choshu / Yatsu, 14. Hansen / DiBiase, 15. Hamaguchi, 16. Williams / Gordy, 17. Tenryu, 18. Kawada, 19. Misawa (+ Kobashi / Kikuchi). Kimura OR Mil would give him the 20+ he needs. Having good stuff with "lower" guys is not actually any part of my criteria and so not something I have put great stock in. It just needs to be 20 different opponents of any calibre. So you see, not only is it a "borerline" case, it could be the real difference between #1 and #2 or #2 and #3 on my final list. The threshhold for what counts as "memorable" in that variety category has been tricky. PS. What about that Hamaguchi match I've put in there from 86?

^ jdw, I did mention it on a recent podcast I did which *might* have been why OJ went to it. I like the match myself, and would cite it as a good example of him vs. "a lesser guy", but it is a borderline case for inclusion in the "variety" metric.

I am not including Kimura in his "variety" run. Jumbo's 70s case is made basically vs. both Funks in singles and tags, vs. Robinson, vs. Brisco, vs. Race, vs. Baba, vs. Bock (79, Hawaii). If someone is not as high on those matches as I am, then the case falls a bit. I think he's comfortably in top 10 70s workers WE HAVE ON TAPE. And based on my "Longevity of Peak" thing being "Top 30 in the world", I happily start him at 1973. People can set their own parameters though.

Rick Rude Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 7 Intangibles 7 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 89-92 = 3 years = 2 Ability to work different styles / roles 0 Variety 3 + 1 ability to work gimmick matches + 1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWCW, JCP / WCW, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 1. Rock n Rolls, 2. Wahoo McDaniel, 4. Jake Roberts 5. Ultimate Warrior, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Dustin Rhodes, 8. Sting, 9. Chono Variety rating = 9 opponents = 4 27 Jack Brisco Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for selling of holds) = 9 Intangibles 2 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 71-83 = 12 years = 7 Ability to work different styles / roles 2 Variety 5 + 1 ability to work heel + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work as traveling champion + 3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Baba, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Jumbo, 5. Inoki, 6. Bill Watts, 7. Harley Race, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Paul Jones, 10. Ric Flair, 11. Roddy Piper, 12. David von Erich, 13. Bob Orton Jr (w/ Valiant / Weaver), 14. Adonis / Murdoch Variety rating = 14 opponents = 7 38 Harley Race Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 3 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 73-84 = 11 years = 7 Ability to work different styles / roles 1 Variety 6 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 abiltiy to work as travelling champion + 1 ability to work tags + 3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Jack Brisco, 2. Terry Funk, 3. Giant Baba, 4. Jumbo, 5. Ric Flair, 6. Kerry von Erich, 7. Ted DiBiase, 8. Mil Mascaras, 9. Rick Martel, 10. Hulk Hogan, 11. Jerry Lawler, 12. David von Erich Variety = 12 opponents = 6 36 Giant Baba Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5 Intangibles 5 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 69-79 = 10 years = 6 Ability to work different styles / roles 1 Variety 7 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 1. Dory Funk Jr., 2. Terry Funk, 3. Jack Brisco, 4. Billy Robinson, 5. Harley Race, 6. Bruno Sammartino, 7. Mil Mascaras / Dos Caras, 8. Fritz von Erich, 9. The Sheik, 10. Stan Hansen, 11. Abdullah the Butcher, 12. The Destroyer, 13. Verne Gagne, 14. Gene Kiniski, 15. Hans Schmidt Variety = 15 opponents = 7 33 The Sheik Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 for mastery of foreign object) = 4 Intangibles 6 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 Ability to work different styles / roles 0 Variety 4 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work technical matches + 3 ability to get over in mulitple markets (every territory, Japan, ECW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Mark Lewin, 2. Dory Funk Jr., 3. Terry Funk, 4. Abdullah the Butcher, 5. Sailor Art Thomas / Dick the Bruiser, 6. Jackie Fargo, 7. Giant Baba, 8. Jumbo, 9. Duk / Oki, 10. Robinson / Hoffman, 11. Ricky Steamboat Variety = 11 opponents = 5 22 Billy Robinson Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 3 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 70-80 = 10 years = 6 Ability to work different styles / roles 1 Variety 6 + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to brawl + 2 ability to get over in multiple markets (UK, AWA, Montreal, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Inoki, 2. Baba, 3. Jumbo, 4. Dory Funk Jr, 5. Terry Funk, 6. Nick Bockwinkel, 7. Verne Gagne, 8. Ray Stevens Variety = 8 opponents = 4 35 Lex Luger Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 88-91 = 3 years = 2 Ability to work different styles / roles 4 Variety 3 + 1 ability to work heel + 1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to get over in muliple markets (Florida, JCP / WCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Ric Flair, 2. Sting, 3. Arn / Tully, 4. Barry windham, 5. Bret Hart, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Tommy Rich, 8. Great muta, 9. Pillman, 10. The Steiners, 11. Hulk Hogan Variety = 11 opponents = 5 23

Yeah, jdw, it's probably unrealistic. Some of us might wathc 5-10 late Kawada matches, but I can't see anyone doing 100 unless literally the ONLY thing they cared about was Kawada.

I guess what I'm saying is, no one is going to watch 100 Kawada matches between now and April, so we need someone to break it down.

Did he GET OVER in Mexico?

I was being ridiculously generous to see what her highest possible score could be.

Brain, on a side note, are you going to rank Bobby Heenan?

Brain: Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 0/3 1/3 +1 (for amazing ass) = 2 Intangibles 10 Great Matches 0 Length of Peak 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to carry women's division Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 If she only worked 19 different wrestlers period, you'd have to work out how many of them are actually worthy of inclusion. And then normalise it out of 10 based on the conversion scale in my thread. Based on what you've said she's on about ... Variety = 10 opponents = 5 So being super generous, she's on about 19. 34 would put her above Bret Hart, which is obviously silly.

I call this "intangibles"

If I put Trish through my BIGLAV system and completely accepted brain's arguments giving her 20 "memorable" opponents to cap out the variety score at 10, and let's say the full 10 for intangibles ... She would cap out at something like 24, which as things stand, would put her ahead of people like The Sheik, Ole Anderson, Butch Reed, Lex Luger, and Ron Garvin and on par with Wahoo McDaniel, and Rick Rude. This is in a scenario where she scores 0 for Great Matches, 0 for Longeivty of peak (on the basis of never being a top 30 worker) and very lowly in terms of the Base skills and Ability to work different roles. So, in other words, if Brain can persuade me that she's a perfect 10 in both Intangibles and Variety, she has every chance of making it in my list. The de facto rejection of Trish shows how strongly some people are leaning on the Basic skills metric and the Great Matches metric. They might not think about it in those terms, but it seems to be the case.

First foray into drilling down into the "Ability to work different styles and roles" and Variety ratings. The demand to do this for all 100 people on the list creates decent metrics I think. Again, these metrics are absolutely demanding a certain amount of engagement and knowledge of each guy. If I can't provide it, I haven't seen enough and he can't make the list. Those I can't provide ratings for become the priorities as we get towards the deadline. [original Ability to work different ... And Variety ratings included as a comparison point. First ratings were qbrought about by estimation, second by "working it through"] Flair Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 +1 (for stamina) = 8 Intangibles 10 Great Matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (78-94) Ability to work different styles / roles 9 Variety 10 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to brawl +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, WCW, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 9 1. Steamboat, 2. Race, 3. Lawler, 4. Kerry von Erich, 5. Jumbo, 6. Martel, 7. DiBiase, 8. Dusty, 9. Windham, 10. Wahoo, 11. Bockwinkel, 12. Magnum TA, 13. Garvin, 14. Morton, 15. Taylor, 16. Luger, 17. Funk, 18. Sting, 19. Savage, 20. Tenryu Variety = 20+ opponents = 10 55 Misawa Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 6 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (90-04) Ability to work different styles / roles 4 Variety 6 +1 ability to work as junior +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II) +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 4 1. Jumbo, 2. Kawada, 3. Kobashi, 4. Taue, 5. Hansen, 6. Gordy, 7. Akiyama, 8. Fuchi, 9. Steve Williams, 10. Johnny Ace, 11. Takayama, 12. Morishima Variety = 12 opponents = 6 44 Bret Hart Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 3/3 +1 (for execution) = 9 Intangibles 4 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 5 (91-97) Ability to work different styles / roles 5 Variety 4 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Calgary, WWF, WCW) +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 5 1. Fujinami, Tiger Mask 2. British Bulldogs, 3. Demolition, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Mr. Perfect, 7. Roddy Piper, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Owen Hart, 10. Shawn Michaels, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Benoit, 13. Islanders Variety = 13 opponents = 6 31 Arn Anderson Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 6 (86-96) Ability to work different styles / roles 3 Variety 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work singles matches +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 1. Rock n Rolls, 2. Road Warriors, 3. Hart Foundation, 4. Windham, 5. Eaton, 6. Steamboat, 7. Dustin Rhodes, 8. Regal, 9. Hogan, 10. Flair, 11. Pillman, 12. Rockers Variety = 12 opponents = 6 35 Ted DiBiase Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 6 (79-88) Ability to work different styles / roles 6 Variety 5 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Million Dollar Man) +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Amarillo, WWF, GCW, Mid-South, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 6 1. JYD, 2. Freebirds, 3. Magnum TA, 4. Brad Armstrong, 5. Duggan, 6. Flair, 7. Murdoch, 8. Tenryu, 9. Jumbo, 10. Choshu / Yatsu, 11. Hogan, 12. Savage, 13. Virgil, 14. Jake, 15. Dusty / Dustin Rhodes, 16. Steiners, 17. Harley Race Variety = 17 opponents = 8 35 Bobby Eaton Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 2 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 6 (83-92) Ability to work different styles / roles 3 Variety 4 +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Mid-South, WCW) +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Mantell / Cobra, 2. Rock n Rolls, 3. Wrestling 2 / Magnum TA, 4. Watts / JYD, 5. Fantastics, 6. Samoan Swat Team, 7. Original Midnight Express, 8. Flair, 9. Arn Variety = 9 opponents = 4 31 Dory Funk Jr. Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 3/3 +1 (for counter wrestling) = 7 Intangibles 0 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 6 (69-79) Ability to work different styles / roles 1 Variety 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to carry promotion / work as company ace +1 ability to work brawls +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Puerto Rico, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 6 1. Jack Brisco, 2. Jerry Brisco, 3. Jumbo, 4. Horst Hoffman, 5. Baba, 6. Sheik, 7. Abdullah the Butcher, 8. Inoki, 9. Bruiser Brody, 10. Mike Graham, 11. Lawler, 12. Hansen / Gordy, 13. Bockwinkel / Lanza, 14. Martel / Zenk, 15. Billy Robinson, 16. Hogan / JYD, 17. Sakaguchi Variety = 17 opponents = 8 35 Terry Funk Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 9 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 8 (74-89) Ability to work different styles / roles 10 Variety 10 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to carry promotion / work as company ace +1 ability to work technical matches +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work the hardcore style +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Chainsaw Charlie) +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Puerto Rico, Japan, WWF, ECW) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 10 1. Jack / Jerry Brisco, 2. Race, 3. Jumbo, 4. Giant Baba, 5. The Sheik, 6. Abdullah the Butcher, 7. Bockwinkel, 8. Lawler, 9. Hansen, 10. Brody, 11. Colon, 12. Hogan, 13. JYD, 14. Martel, 15. Steamboat, 16. Flair, 17. Eddie Gilbert, 18. Cactus Jack, 19. Sabu, 20. Onita Variety = 20+ opponents = 10 53 -------- First thought there is that working things out has helped Dory a ton. This was always my point about him, which is that even if you allow for his lack of charisma (I've given him a zero) and even if you find him boring a lot, if you look at everything he did over his career and allow any of those things to count for something beyond your own personal bias, his case is pretty strong. He's currently above Bret, Eaton, and Ted using this system, which I wouldn't have thought before implementing it. The other big beneficiary was Misawa who gained a lot of points, perception (my original rating) vs reality (working it all through) is interesting. 44 is looking good enough for top ten. But let's see where we are after the next batch.

Some sort of guide to this material would be handy.

Wrong thread?

I think that anyone who doesn't wear proper wrestling boots looks like their ankles are too skinny. Both Cena and Lesnar are victims of this. If you aren't going to wear boots, the only way to go is no footwear at all. Worst ring attire is probably someone from World of Sport. They often had like cloth rather than proper lycra. And cloth on a wrestler always looks saggy, lame and homemade. Sort of like Peter Parker's wrestling suit when he faces Randy Savage in that movie.

If people wanted to be super duper nit picky about my BIGLAV system, I don't differentiate between number of good matches worked as singles or as tags. Which means to say, that on the topic of singles vs. tags, my "great matches" factor is basically neutral. Although arguably singles guys get more chances to score points elsewhere. I have a big update coming soon. And it will be interesting to see where Bret and Eaton finish relative to each other after latest refinements. I think, going on memory, they both gained one and Eaton is 31 whereas Bret is 29, which will probably amount to a significant gap. However, once I rework the variety metric in detail, I expect Bret to shoot up to about 34, but we'll see.

Hold your horses Johnny, did he mean fresh as in recording some new shows or fresh as in different content? In other words, it could be a complaint more about no new shows being uploaded for a while rather than about either of those shows being "stale". Maybe see if he clarifies before going on attack.

That was based on research I believe Matt Farmer did. Or Meltzer. Or both.

I guess my point is that there's only really one guy who is in the conversation for top 5 worker, top 5 promo, etc. Who was also a top draw. Like Flair is in there with Dusty, Rock, Austin, etc, he's there in the worker conversation and he's there among the draws (number 2 in US for 1980s) That's what I was getting at. I do rate Terry Funk on the mic, but I don't think he's top 5 level. Same with Lawler. But I'm not all that bothered about debating it. I just think including promos, in real terms, would pretty much make Flair lock for many people. But I'm not bothered what anyone else does with their list.

Fair enough

Really not trying to pick on you but trying to fit all wrestling into your perfect vision of what wrestling should be is an unproductive way to watch IMO. I don't try to fit all wrestling to my perfect vision of it, but if a match happens to coincide with it, it doesn't hurt it. I do as a general rule think the narrative of an extended heat segment for a heel followed by a babyface comeback makes way more sense from a story and psychology stand point than a twenty minute shine sequence. And this does factor into how I rate things on occasion, like Bob Backlund matches. I like heels to get heat if the babyface is going over.

If you include promos the question of number one becomes pretty clear cut doesn't it? I've considered only in ring, criteria laid out in the BIGLAV thread.

Negro Casas vs. La Fiera (1/10/93) We appear to lose sound at the start of this. Comes back. This is a very enjoyable match that is sufficiently brutal and well worked to leave me really satisfied. Has none of the Lucha bugbears that I've criticised in the past. Strikes are all very crisp. The throws and bombs were cool. The juice job by Casas after the first fall looked *real*, as in hardway. Fiera was impressive here. Seemed impassioned, and like he wanted to inflict pain. Casas looked tremendous. I thought his bumping and selling were both really good and I dug the hell out of his kicks and offense when he was on top. Good stuff, not blowaway, or going to trouble my top 100 list, but super enjoyable. Intensity and violence. **** Negro Casas vs. Mocho Cota (9/23/94) These two are probably my favourite Lucha guys that I've seen, not saying a lot I know but this is moderately exciting. You can tell it is 1994, they are playing 2 Unlimited in the arena! Cota has big hair here and comedic music. I'm disappointed he's not as cool and sinister as he was in the 1980s, but still has obvious charisma. Stan Hansen style start to this as Cota ambushes Casas still wearing his denim jacket. Yeah it was definitely the early 90s! Ha ha. It's got a tiger on the back of it. Casas is bloodied before the match has even started. Here are some things I like in my wrestling: * great character work * sustained heat sequences in which heels run through an entire arsenal of offense * sustained focus on a body part, aka basic Andersons psychology * great selling This match has all of those things in spades and is easily one of the best Lucha matches I've seen. If you tend to not get or be alienated by Lucha, as I have been a lot. Watch this. This is a match from Mexico that fans of American or Japanese wrestling could enjoy. Cota could be Terry Funk. Casas could be Ricky Steamboat. Cota beats on Casas for something fifteen straight minutes, possibly even longer. The stomps on his ankle are brutal, intense, great work. My buddy Pete simply must watch this if he hasn't, he'd love this limbwork. I loved Cota blowing out Casas's knee on the mat. Comeback is incredibly well built to, although finish seems a bit abrupt. Will Mocho Cota ever be in a match I give less than four stars to? He's a lock for my list. Such a brilliant worker. And Casas continues to be fantastic. And this match will very very probably make my next top 100 matches. A bit like Rude vs. Steamboat, or Arn / Larry vs. Dustin / Steamer, this comes close to my perfect vision of a pro wrestling match. Only misses out on full five because the finish was a little anticlimactic. Brilliant match though. Loved it. ****3/4