JerryvonKramer

Mad Dog, Vince Sr had a whole crew of coolers, and he used intermissions. Let me dig up some MSG cards. Cooler matches in bold. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 21, 1980 (20,000+) Televised on the MSG Network - featured Vince McMahon on commentary: Davey O'Hannon pinned Angelo Gomez at 10:21 with a neckbreaker - cooler opener, people arriving etc. Kevin Von Erich pinned Johnny Rodz with a Thesz Press at 8:28 (Von Erich's only MSG appearance) - highlighting babyface Larry Zbyszko defeated Hussein Arab via disqualification at 10:29 when Arab accidentally hit an elbow drop on referee Terry Terranova when Zbyzsko moved out of the way after Arab had pushed Zbyszko onto the referee when kicking out of a pin attempt; after the bout, Zbyszko cleared Arab from the ring - star vs. star match Hulk Hogan pinned Dominic DeNucci at 7:34 with the legdrop after dropping DeNucci throat-first across the top rope; prior to the bout, Freddie Blassie escorted Hogan to the ring before returning backstage when the match began - highlighting heel The Wild Samoans defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ivan Putski & Tito Santana via count-out at 12:46 after Samoan #2 crotched Santana on the top rope, with Santana then falling out to the floor; after the bout, Santana was taken backstage on a stretcher (the Samoans' MSG debut) - featured match up Rene Goulet pinned Baron Mikel Scicluna at 4:59 with a sunset flip; during the bout, Vince McMahon interviewed Mike Weppner from Front Line Management in NYC, & Kal Rudman about their experience being here at MSG (Goulet's return to MSG after an 8-year absence) - cooler before main event WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) fought Ken Patera to a draw at 25:52 when, after Patera threw Backlund into referee Jack Lotz, referee Terry Terranova called for the bell; after the bout, Lotz was taken backstage on a stretcher; prior to the bout, the Grand Wizard escorted Patera to the ring before returning backstage when the match began; after the bout, both men continued brawling until they were eventually separated by several other wrestlers and referees - main event [want to say there was likely an intermission here, but someone else might check, might have been before main] WWF IC Champion Pat Patterson defeated Capt. Lou Albano via count-out at 6:11 in a non-title match after Patterson hit Albano with his own foreign object, causing Albano to bleed, with Albano then running backstage - semi-main Bobby Duncum pinned Mike Masters at 1:29 with a bulldog Tony Atlas pinned Swede Hanson at 2:17 with a headbutt off the top (Atlas' MSG debut) - curfew stuff. Gonna pulla out some others. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 24, 1980 (26,102 which included 4,000 in Felt Forum) Televised on the MSG Network - featured Vince McMahon on commentary Bulldog Brower pinned Frank Williams at 8:53 with an elbow drop following a running back elbow - cooler opener, people arriving etc. Kerry Von Erich pinned Jose Estrada at 10:49 with a sunset flip out of the corner (Kerry's MSG debut) - highlighting babyface Tor Kamata pinned Mike Masters at 5:46 with a jumping kick and a kneedrop - cooler Larry Zbyszko defeated Bruno Sammartino (w/ Arnold Skaaland) via disqualification at 15:31 when Sammartino failed to release a choke; Sammartino was eventually pulled away by Skaaland and referee Dick Kroll while Zbyzsko escaped - co-main event Afa pinned Dominic DeNucci at 9:42 with a jumping headbutt - cooler WWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Sika at 18:32 after throwing the challenger off the top as Sika attempted a diving headbutt - co-main event Andre the Giant & WWF IC Champion Pat Patterson defeated Bobby Duncum & Ken Patera at 11:04 when Andre pinned Duncum with a splash as Patterson had Duncum in the figure-4 - feature match Rene Goulet pinned Baron Mikel Scicluna with a sunset flip at 6:11 - cooler Hulk Hogan pinned WWF Tag Team Champion Tito Santana at 8:12 with a suplex and grabbing the tights for leverage; prior to the bout, Hogan was escorted to the ring by Freddie Blassie - highlighting heel / people go home One more. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 16, 1980 (20,000+) Johnny Rodz defeated Steve King - cooler opener Bobby Duncum defeated Rick McGraw - highlighting heel Hulk Hogan defeated Gorilla Monsoon - highlighting heel Larry Zbyszko defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund when the bout was stopped due to blood at 27:39 - main event Ivan Putski (sub. for Dusty Rhodes) defeated Tor Kamata - sort of a cooler, although names might pop crowd anyway WWF IC Champion Ken Patera defeated Pat Patterson - semi main Rene Goulet defeated Larry Sharpe via disqualification - cooler WWF Tag Team Champions the Wild Samoans defeated Dominic DeNucci & Ivan Putski - your typical curfew tag finish to a card

Uh oh ...

WWF's gimmicks were better because every character could be reduced to 2-3 USPs which could be instantly recognised by iconography. You can see this reflected in branding on SNME shows, for example, in which every single wrestler on the card had their own individual logo. Every character had something you could instantly identify with him and Vince was always borderline psycho in enforcing the non-replication of details, down to colour of tights, two people having the same name on the roster, etc. Ergo: Brutus Beefcake had his sheers. Jake had a snake in the bag. Bossman had a night stick Mr. Perfect had a towel etc. etc. Even someone like Terry Funk coming in was given distinctive iconography and even today on WWE merch he is mostly pictured as presenteed in 1985: Likewise Flair would always be in the robe in WWF, never in the suit and shades. The only exceptions I can think of to this general rule are Arn and Tully, who were just "The Brainbusters" with seemingly zero gimmicks and no iconography. Maybe Vince thought Heenan was enough. So anyway, better branding on gimmicks certainly. Re: commentary, I'd take Vince and Jesse over all.

I'd also like a Choshu vs. Yatsu comparison. Would people put Yatsu definitively second? And if so, why?

I maintain that Scicluna was employed specifically to let the crowd know that something entirely missable was on -- some people arrive, some people going to get drinks, some people going to the loo, etc. Might be known professionally as "The Cooler".

I do think the match benefits from some context, but I'm not sure how you might go around getting a sense of that through a handful of matches. Jumbo and Tenryu tagged a good bit, especially vs. Choshu and Yatsu. That is when Tenryu starts to look really good, but he's a clear #2 to Jumbo. Then after Choshu leaves in 1987, Tenryu starts "Revolution" with Hara and Footloose. Tenryu becomes a sort of heel / tweener anti-hero and his character work becomes a lot better -- or rather, much better suited to his role. Some one else could list particular matches, but I think it would be helpful to watch matches that: - Give you a sense of the Jumbo / Tenryu team dynamic (where Jumbo is plainly "the man") - Give you a sense of the anti-authority attitude of Tenryu and Revolution, and how they stick it to "the man". - Give you a sense of Jumbo's general levels of digust about the above You could just go into the match without watching anything, but seeing these things for yourself is more effective than simply being told about them.

lol

I think that is a fun one as I said on a show recently. For me, I think Yatsu sometimes comes across as the best guy in those tags, whereas that's almost never the case with Taue. Yatsu consistently outshone Choshu for me in most of the tags, partly because he was doing a lot of the heavy-duty workrate. His offense is just un-real too. Taue has a bigger body of work, especially in singles.

There is a sub-text to calling someone "Harley Race 2.0" that comes with a set of connotations. Since you are telling me now that, based on that fact that's the only time you've ever mentioned Race on the site, it was not at all clear to anyone else what you meant -- why don't you clarify it for us right now?

Pretty much. He's a go-go-go worker who did tons of cool stuff, had a formula that produced shitloads of very good to great matches. He's Harley Race 2.0, and that's pretty great for what it is. One of my favourites wrestler for sure. And he's been overanalyzed for more than 20 years now.

Of course, that post by El-P is also based on a slightly false notion of what Harley was like too. However, I doubt I'd be able to find the guests for a four-part mini series on Race. Ha ha.

Anyone who really wants to come on to debate this can on an unscheduled part 5. Pre-requisites are listening to all the arguments and engaging specific points. There really would be no point in it otherwise. I'd bring in someone as impartial moderator. Deadline for PMs: Friday, October 9th.

PTBN page: http://placetobenation.com/fair-for-flair/ Part 1: Strategy and Psychology https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-1 In the first of his four-part mini series, Parv welcomes Marty Sleaze (Tag Teams Back Again) to discuss STRATEGY. Topics include: - What is Ric Flair's basic gameplan in kayfabe terms? - How does Flair's character factor into his psychology? - Is Flair a "smart" worker? - How valid is the "stuff to do" criticism? - How does Flair's psychology compare to Nick Bockwinkel's? Part 2: The Art of the Promo https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-2 In the second part of this mini-series, Parv focuses on Ric Flair's ability to cut promos. Taking a seven-month period from his debut in the WWF in September 91 to his title loss to Randy Savage at Wrestlemania 8, he takes a detailed look at the promos he was cutting week-by-week to develop an understanding of how he built his character and his feuds through them. In the process, he puts forward an argument for why Flair is the greatest promo of all time. 9/9/91 - debut in WWF, Prime Time. 9/21/92 - Promo on Hulk Hogan, Funeral Parlour, Superstars. 9/22/91 - Promo on Hulk Hogan, Barber Shop, Challenge 10/6/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Superstars 10/13/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Challenge 10/20/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Challenge 10/26/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Superstars 1/11/92 - Promo before Royal Rumble, Funeral Parlour, Superstars 1/18/92 - Promo before Royal Rumble, Superstars 1/19/92 - Promo after winning WWF title, Royal Rumble 3/7/92 - Promo on Randy Savage, Superstars 3/28/92 - Press conference ahead of Wrestlemania 8, Superstars 4/5/92 - Promo after losing WWF title to Savage, Wrestlemania 8 Part 3: Top 20 Matches https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-3 On part 3 of this mini-series Parv welcomes Pete (Titans of Wrestling, This Week in Wrestling), who picks and analyses his Top 20 Ric Flair matches and discusses Flair's body of work in the ring. Part 4: Assessing Flair for the Greatest Wrestler Ever project https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-4 On part 4, Parv welcomes Charles (Pro Wrestling Only) to discuss Flair's case for the Greatest Wrestler Ever project and to assess how he compares with other top-tier candidates such as Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler, Stan Hansen, Jumbo Tsuruta, Genichiro Tenryu, Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, Toshiaki Kawada, Tatsumi Fujinami, Negro Casas, El Satanico, and many others. Part 5: The Thunderdome https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-5 In a special unscheduled Part 5, Parv welcomes Good Ol' Will from Texas to debate some of the claims made in parts 1-4. A good range of topics are covered including: psychology, great match theory, how to assess candidates, the importance of different styles, subjectivity, Jerry Lawler, peak vs. longevity, burnout and much more. Strap yourselves in, it's gonna be a bumpy night.

Do people like Amazing Red too?

Here's me. This is everyone else.

That was the most amazing Wales win ever I reckon. In Twickenham too. HA HA. My dad was here and we were shouting and yelling at the TV, the true joy of sport.

There are COUNTLESS stories from old-timers about being told off by bookers for having a good match on the undercard and upstaging the main event. Countless. Also, this quotation is from the SAME GUY who argued that it was Vince Sr who told Backlund to work like superman. So you can't have it both ways bub.

It is not recency bias, it is a quantity thing - which is basically that Jumbo has a really stellar 70s and Flair doesn't (that we have on tape, although he is GOOD on garbage tape stuff), and that's the margin. He also has more matches I've given 5 stars. When it comes down to such a small margin, then I'll go with measurables.

Looking at GOTNW's ratings for some of those matches and the fact he called "Flair vs. Jumbo" the most painful experience he's ever had watching wrestling, I can see that. But y'know, there are places where I'd get laughed out of the building for my views on Shawn Michaels, so hey ho. I despise relativism but also concede that there is no alternative to it. Then again, no one is going to have Ludwig Borga in their top 100, so maybe there is some sense of shared value and more than the "different strokes" thing can account for. Let's not get bogged down in it though. I look forward to your reviews in November. Try not to go in with an agenda, I found it liberating to watch Dory without "this is going to be boring / suck" predetermining my response.

The openers at MSG were always appalling, and so were the curfews (last match). So maybe they were aware of people arriving and people leaving? In modern WWE or even in later 80s WWF, I'm sure most of those openers would have been dark matches.

It's your own list, you can do what you want with it. If it is "Greatest" rather than just a list of your favourite guys, that's something for you to agonise over.

I am convinced that the match were bad "on purpose". Like Vince Sr had given strict orders to stink up the joint for 10 minutes to ensure people would get their toilet breaks, buy their donuts, etc. You could make an argument that Scicluna is one of those maestros who can play the piano badly, which apparently takes real skill. I mean, you could, I'm not saying I will.

So, Rey is a guy I don't get and have never got. See my review of Eddie vs. Rey from 97 for the sort of things I can't stand about him. I would be cool for someone to walk through what they like about him. He seems like Ricky Morton + a load of irritating fireworks to me. Sell me.

Even if I disagree with his conclusions strongly enough to the point where I can barely take them seriously, I do think it's excellent that GOTNW has put in the legwork and come to them. That's all I can ask for. If you come out of watching all that and still don't think Flair is a great or still think Bock is the better worker, there's nothing else to be said. It's just that I want detail on the specifics. Fair is fair.

Which matches don't you consider to be great and why? I want specifics, not the endless tired vagueries and generalisations that I've been seeing for the past two years.