JerryvonKramer

Okay, I've had a little look at this. This is based on what is listed at Wrestlingdata.com. Reason for this is to work out what Murdoch's matches against Inoki and Baba "mean". Worst case scenario is that he's sort of like an 70s-80 Japanese version of Kane. Best case is that he's a top top star. For comparison's sake Murdoch's record against both guys is [Murdoch's wins - draws - opponent's wins]: vs. Baba: 1-1-77 vs. Inoki: 18-13-93 Let's do Baba's record vs. various guys first [baba's wins - draws - opponent's wins]. vs. Abdullah: 179-13-47 vs. Hansen: 36-12-40 vs. Bobo Brazil: 49-7-17 vs. The Destroyer: 33-9-28 vs. Brody: 66-15-28 vs. Harley Race: 46-6-18 vs. Cyclone Negro: 52-3-8 vs. Terry Funk: 34-11-10 vs. Dick Slater: 41-4-7 vs. Killer Karl Kox: 41-2-6 vs. Mark Lewin: 35-1-8 vs. Dory Funk Jr: 23-8-14 vs. Billy Robinson: 24-4-15 vs. Terry Gordy: 24-3-12 vs. Ted DiBiase: 20-3-12 vs. Wilbur Snyder: 16-3-8 Observations: Dick Murdoch's record vs. Baba is significently worse than pretty much all of the other big-name gajins that worked in the same era. We know the Funks were big stars in AJPW and they each have over 10 wins against Baba. Hansen, Destroyer, Brody and Billy Robinson have decent win percentages. Even guys like DiBiase and Gordy have a dozen wins vs. Baba to their names. Murdoch? Just one. 77 losses, 1 draw, just 1 win. It's got to suggest *something*. Now let's look at Inoki's records: vs. Andre: 74-28-30 vs. Bad News Brown: 99-6-9 vs. The Masked Superstar: 86-6-14 vs. Brody: 29-11-7 vs. Hansen: 31-4-9 vs. Abdullah: 34-2-6 vs. Adrian Adonis: 27-7-6 vs. Bam Bam Bigelow: 32-0-5 vs. Steve Williams: 21-3-4 vs. The Destroyer: 4-4-16 vs. Hulk Hogan: 13-5-6 Observations: Inoki seemed to be generally less willing to put guys over himself than Baba. And despite that, Murdoch has 18 wins to his name against him, which is actually more than any other gajin, but he also has the second biggest number of defeats against him. The Destroyer is only one of a handful of wrestlers of any description to have a positive record vs. Inoki. Thoughts: Does this suggest that Murdoch was a significantly bigger star in New Japan than he was in All Japan? And if so, does that hurt his HoF case at all when considering him in All Japan? That's the data, I'll leave the arguments for others.

Joe - I post reviews in The Microscope section and then match highlights / thoughts / deeper analysis in the GWE section. Re: Low Ki, I still haven't done enough reviews to offer any of the above, still forming my views on him really.

I do get your point. And we're dealing with different eras -- i.e. Cena in one where there's a monthly PPV and the NWA guys in an era with a travelling champ, sometimes going to rinky-dink local venues. But, like you say, it depends on how you define "big match". Since you had the bigger towns that ran a monthly "big show" loop like MSG in New York, Spectrum in Philly, Omni in Atlanta, Greensboro in the Carolinas, Kiel in St. Louis, Houston, etc. etc. you COULD argue that every 10,000+ gate Omni show or every 20,000+ MSG card is sort of like your equivalent of a modern-day non-big-four PPV. If you do argue that, then all your Savage MSG and Spectrum shows plus SNME etc. "count". And all of your Flair defenses at the big arena shows do. If you don't, then guys from the 70s and 80s can't really compete with Cena because of the number of PPVs. But regardless of any of that, I think "big match worker" is a cop-out BS phrase that is short-hand for "modern WWE main-event style". I'm not picking on you here, I'm talking to everyone. "Big match worker", WTF is that? You're almost certainly not talking about Harley Race wrestling 60-minute broadways, you're talking about endless false-finish matches at Wrestlemania, invented by Vince for the WWF/E audience. So the first "big match" in wrestling history is something like Hogan vs. Warrior, other "big matches" include all the HBK crap from the 00s that WWE fans love so much, and anything else that makes the typical WWE history highlight reel. Tell me I'm wrong and why. I don't have a particular axe to grind here, I just want to know what people mean by "big match worker". If it's what I said, then how much is it an achievement for Cena to be the best one? What's it really saying about him? I say this as someone not particularly looking forward to spending 20+ hours of my time watching his matches for this project. Every guy is going to have to justify time at this point. Why should Cena have my time?

Re: Murdoch in Japan, does it matter that virtually all of his matches with Baba and Inoki were losses? What are the win-loss records against those two from comparable foreign stars? What's Hansen's record? What's the Destroyer's? What's DiBiase's? What's Brody's? I think the win-loss record will suggest *something* surely since Inoki and Baba weren't going to lie down for just any old guy and seemingly they never did for Murdoch.

I'll be assessing Cena and giving him the full microscope treatment in time. I'll admit though that he's not really a guy I *want* to rank highly. I've also seen performances of his I really dislike such as vs. The Rock, which was a terrible match. And I thought the Wyatt match sucked ass too. He has an uphill battle: he represents a style I dislike, I'm predisposed to dislike him and his stupid fucking spinner belt, and he has worked in an era and promotion of which I am not fond. This triple barrier puts him at severe disadvantage in the Parv rankings. And despite all that I suspect he'll still find a place on the list through volume alone. "greatest big match worker in US history" sounds like bollocks though. Better than all the NWA champions? Better than Savage? I'm strongly disinclined to believe that.

I think "incredible" is really stretching it, and it's not altogether his fault. When he was put in a position to have good matches (e.g. vs. Luger, Flair, Liger), he has good matches, and short of coming out with a sign on his forehead saying "push me", I don't know what else he could have done. But arguably no one was a bigger victim of WCW clusterfuck changes of management and booking teams than Pillman. And for me that hurts his babyface run during the period you're talking about -- and I do agree that he was very good in that role, just completely wasted by the company. It puts him a notch below someone with a comparable great "short peak run" like Rick Rude from roughly the same time frame. That said, I'm a little higher on his heel stuff than your brother and would give him a shot at finishing in the 90-100 range, but Pillman is likely going to be a victim of having to make way for some of the WoS or Lucha guys ... blame Dusty Rhodes, Ole Anderson or Jim Herd. Take your pick!

Childs, would you agree that his timing on that Scorpion Deathlock wasn't always the best? I remember his Scorpion in general being a bugbear in the singles matches.

I feel like I didn't make myself clear here. The last paragraph is the important bit, the stuff before that about the business is just context. I do think crowds and atmosphere play an important role for me though. On the one hand the high school gym feels less important than MSG, on the other the smoky Mid-South arena feels more authentic than the modern Wrestlemania stadium show. Whichever way you look at it, I massively dislike modern crowds and -- like the commentary -- it's a barrier to overcome when I watch that stuff. I'm into the presentational aspects of wrestling more than most. Never been just a bell-to-bell guy. I'm into the whole "inner-world" of it. I also have no problem saying that I do consider the opinions of others, especially those in the PWO community. If Chad drops five stars on a match and then Loss backs him up, I'm going to take notice of it. If I'm high on something and someone else is less so, the reasons can be really interesting. They might point out flaws I missed, or whatever. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree, like me and the other Titans over Bob Backlund's ridiculous lack of selling every single show.

One thing I've been thinking about Bruno recently is that his style seems unique. I'd describe it as "charging Gorilla". There's something really rugged and rough around the edges to him. Can anyone think of anyone else who worked like Bruno did?

This made me chuckle. As if you're like 25 and Johnny's 50! lol

Okay, now for some general frustrations with Dory I've been having: - He never seems to put anyone over. Seriously, I don't think I can recall seeing him pinned even once. - While not as egregious as Backlund, he also seems to work very strong and on top for the best part. There are times when I think he could do with showing more vulnerability, especially when working as a babyface in Japan. It's always Terry who seems to get injured or hurt, and usually it's Dory who is left 2 on 1 or to make the save. Sure, that makes sense since Terry could be a great sympathetic face, but there are also times when Dory could be a bit more giving to opponents. Considering the fact that he looked a bit like a Geography teacher, Dory sort of worked more like he was Superman ... if Superman did matwork. - He's not a big bumper. I don't know if this is a frustration so much as it is an observation. While Brisco, Race and Terry Funk all feel like they are pioneering a new style -- big bumps, motion and action -- Dory seems like a hold over from the previous generation. And he never seems to change or try to adapt his style, even when he's working the blood brawls. I can't decide if that's a bad thing, or actually something that is quite cool. On the one hand, you could say that when everyone else is bumping around, he should have changed it up a bit. But on the other hand, he sort of represents a bridge back to the 1950s. I feel like there was a big transition that took place over the course of the 1970s in the US, generally from a mat-based style to an all-action big-bumping style. Seems to me that Brisco, Harley, and Terry helped usher that change in and you end up with guys like Flair and Steamboat the other side. Dory, however, sticks to his guns. You can spin it either way really: one narrative is that time passed him by and he's an anachronism in the 80s. The other narrative is that he's doing something quite brave still working these really technical psychological matches in 1981 when everyone else is "resorting" to the easier pops that come with more action.

I really had guys like Steamer and Martel in mind. Not sure how to word it. Jim Brunzell would be another one. Tito. Anyone who does a lot of arm drags, drop kicks and fiery comebacks. "Working babyface"? "blowjob babyface"? "Good-looking babyface"? Just that the older generation of babyfaces like, say, Johnny Weaver didn't seem to work like that. I guess we have a gap where so little of the 60s is on tape. But seems to me that Brisco is to those faces what Ray Stevens is to the big bumping heels like Flair.

What do people make of my claim that Brisco invented the 80s NWA babyface (eg Martel, Steamboat)? Did anyone else in the 70s work like Brisco? It's not just his motion and bumping, it's the whole move set: arm drag, hip toss, fireman carry takeover, drop kick, then up into the suplexes. On top of that, his exaggerated expressions working a body part on the mat and his desperation in selling are both things you'd see someone like Martel do later. From all the 70s I've seen I've not come across anyone else like that -- have you? He feels like a guy from a decade later dropped back in time.

Jack Brisco and Paul Jones vs. Buddy Colt and Johnny Valentine (06/05/73) This is from Florida, despite the Mid-Atlantic guys. I reviewed this match here. Always cool to catch a glimpse of Johnny Valentine. Jack Brisco vs. Killer Khan (1979??) Seems to be from GCW. Brisco controls the early going with armwork and a few of his trademark fireman carry takeovers. Khan gets a little stretch on top and Brisco bumps big for him before switching focus to the leg. Figure-four for the win in this glorified squash. Jack Brisco and Jimmy Garvin vs. Mike Fever and Gerald Finley (1980) Back in Florida. Jim Garvin is pretty young here and he still looks sort of middle aged. "Mike Fever" is not a bad name at all. Mike Fever, Mike Feevvverrrr ... we know how to show it! Brisco wins with the figure-four. Not a lot to get my teeth stuck into here. Jack Brisco vs. Buzz Sawyer (1981) This is a $5k challenge. CWF. I think Solie has Jerry Graham on commentary with him. Solie says he's seen Brisco training on many mornings. There's a lot of talk of Brisco getting a shot to regain the world title by taking on Flair soon. He's in the back watching this one. This is a mainly mat-based affair. First Brisco controls the arm, then Sawyer controls it. Sawyer goes for the scoop powerslam, but Brisco blocks it with the Thesz Press for the three. What a great counter! Nice little studio match but you'd hope for a bit more from these two. ** Jack Brisco and Jimmy Garvin vs Frank Monte and Geoff Portz (1980) CWF. Brisco and Garvin are the Florida tag champs now. Monte is one of my favourite jobbers because of his beard. Garvin looks pretty smooth in his work here. Monte and Portz actually get quite a long time on offense here. This is a competitive match and Solie puts Portz over pretty strongly on commentary. The work is very solid but this is too short to rate really. Only thing to note is that Brisco keeps things moving at a decent pace. Jack Brisco vs Mike Hammer (1980?) Coach Heath is on colour with Solie on play-by-play. Heath gives things a sense of "real sports" legitimacy that is really rare. He talks about Mike Hammer's college background and how going forward amatuer credentials are going to become increasingly important in pro wrestling. He just SOUNDS like a real sports guy talking about a real sport. Hammer looks quite spritely with a chop and a knee drop, but Brisco makes short work of him with the figure-four for a quick squash. Jack Brisco vs. Geoff Portz (1980) Brisco has a knee support and is limping. Dusty Rhodes is at ringside. Portz uses some stiff punches. European uppercut. Targets the injured leg. But Brisco wins with a flash pin off an inside cradle. Jack Brisco and Charlie Cook vs The Assassins (07/18/80) Story here is that The Assassins have put Jerry Brisco out of wrestling, so Jack is teaming up with Cook. This seems to be arena footage from the Eddie Graham Sports Stadium in Orlando, but Solie is commentating. Faces really dominate the Assassins before the bell even goes. The Assassin uses powder in Brisco's face, blinding him. Cook tries to go two on one. "El Grande" tries to come to the rescue but gets isolated for a two on one while Brisco is still out of it. Match still hasn't started! Assassins beat up El Grande now. Heel beatdown on El Grande and Cook now. Assassins are pretty dastardly! And that's we, I guess there was no match. Oh well. I feel like I've seen loads of The Assassins injuring guys beore matches but can't recall actually seeing them have a match! Jack Brisco vs. Herb Calvert (1980?) Steve Keirn is on colour with Solie. After some early exchanges, Calvert gets a bearhug on, which Brisco sells will some compunction. But then he reverses a hiptoss and applies a figure-four for a quick win. Jack Brisco vs Sweet Brown Sugar (1984?) Brisco looks a bit older here with short hair, if I had to guess I'd say this was GCW in 84. Sweet Brown Sugar wears as a mask. This is a match in a tournament to face Flair for the title. Sweet Brown Sugar controls the first five minutes or so with headlock takeovers until The Spoiler appears at ringside and distracts him. The Spoiler says he wants to expose every other masked man in the business. Anyway, Brisco takes advantage of the distraction, but not for long as Sugar gets back on top. Brisco ends up bailing. If I didn't know better, I'd say Jack is playing the subtle heel here. He executes his fireman carry takeover into an arm bar. Sugar bridges up but Brisco jumps on top of him for a pin attempt. Body scissors by Sugar. Series of pin attempts with this by Sugar now. He's worked a very solid mat-based match here has Sugar. Brisco breaks the body scissors and attacks the leg with a kneedrop and a series of follow ups. He goes for the figure-four but Sugar reverses. Brisco steals the win though, with a sly reversal of his own. He has a smug look on his face as he's booed, confirming the fact he was working heel here. Not a bad studio match at all, especially for Georgia. Brisco gave Sugar a lot here, and shows us a different dimension working heel -- he really can do it all. *** Jack Brisco vs Brad Armstrong (1984?) This also has to be from GCW. Feeling more confident with my call of 84 now seeing Brad knocking about. Winner gets to take on Flair for the title. Heel heat for Jack, big babyface pop for Brad. Brisco seems to age quite a bit between 81 and 84. Maybe it's because he cuts off his 70s barnett. Two fireman carry takeovers by Brad, which is going to piss Brisco off, as Solie notes. Side headlock by Brad. Headlock takedown. He controls with a headlock now. Brisco tries to come back but Armstrong nails a dropkick and goes back to it. Brisco dumps him out onto the concrete to break the momentum. As the ref counts, Brisco raises his hands for some boos. He has a very smug look on his face. Armstrong tries to get back in but Brisco lays him over the bottom rope and legdrops him on it, back to the outside. Two big elbows to the back of the neck now by Brisco. Great psychology to follow up the legdrop by attacking that same injured body part. Brisco has the smug grin seemingly permenantly. Head scissors. Armstrong struggles and the ref calls for the bell. Really good match, even though it was quite short. Brisco plays a great prick heel, and it's nice to see him as the wily veteran at this stage in his career. One of the better Brad Armstrong matches that I can recall. If it had been given another 5 or 6 minutes, this might have beeng great. As it is, simply very good. ***1/2 A lot of short, rather nothing matches here. Nice to see Brisco transition to being a heel later in his career. Next time in this thread, I'll be tackling some of Brisco's longer matches that we have on tape from Japan.

The only HoF that all the wrestlers REALLY care about is the WWE Hall of Fame, because it's almost like winning a super bowl ring and means they can command bigger paydays and get instant respect from kids and stuff who might not remember them but go to local indy shows. After that I think they care about Cauliflower Alley -- because that has legit respect within the business and several of the old guard still attached to it. And after that, probably the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum in New York. If Dave tried to put on a black tie event and attached a dinner with speakers and so on to it, the old wrestlers might give more of a shit, but as it is, I don't think "the business" cares that much about who is in or isn't it.

Kind of interesting actually that Saito was considered that level of star in Japan, I don't tend to think of him as a top top guy.

You seem very intent on making it an old vs new thing again. Read what I said again.

So he didn't go to prison?

I'm a bit confused about Saito's timeline and don't actually recall him on the AJ set at all. As I understood it, Choshu asked Saito to be his mentor in New Japan when he formed the Revolution Army in 83, and Saito was technically the stable's leader. Now, I didn't know Saito made the jump to All Japan as well, and assumed that he would have been in JAIL at this time with Ken Patera. I know Saito goes back to New Japan when Choshu does in 1987, but how was Saito not in prison in 02/85?

I can see exactly why they were doing it, but that doesn't mean that I hate it any less than I do. I think directly appealing to "the smart fan" is properly stupid, both in terms of a business model and in terms of creating an in-ring product. I can't remember where Loss said it, but it should be that the wrestlers are controlling the crowd, not the crowd controlling the wrestlers. ROH really screwed the pooch from the get-go, in my view. By being so stubbornly niche, they put a cap on the potential size of their audience. And by working "to the smart fan", they create a real rod for their own backs as to the sorts of matches they have to put on every single time. On the plus side, you may get some great matches put on in front of intolerably annoying crowds, but it puts a tremendous amount of strain on the workers for not a lot of pay off. Completely ass backwards when you stop and think that Vince McMahon Sr was selling out MSG putting on sub-par shows with only one or two featured matches and literally SD Jones vs. Johnny Rodz or its equivalent filling out the card. It's not that "standards have changed" or that fans are now "smarter", it's that promoters and workers have become actively stupider. If Vince Sr had kept raising the bar every single month at MSG and had his son talking about MOTYs, then they'd have probably gone bust in a couple of years or had to stack his cards by bringing in expensive talent from elsewhere and amping up the workrate. Down south, in some territories, they had to work twice as hard for half the pay off either because the crowds weren't there, or because they had to run a weekly loop. Might make for better matches and more innovative angles, but again it's not exactly booking "smart". The very best promoters were those who were able to get the most (i.e. box office) out of the least (i.e. talent and matches). Where am I going with this? I do ultimately agree with you Joe that standards aren't universal and that guys at different times have to do different things to get over. I think it's undoubtedly true that a guy working ROH in 2005 would have to work about 20 times as hard in front of the 500 people in the shitty high school gym than Ivan Putski would in front of 25,000 people at MSG in 1979. And Putski would probably get the bigger pops and a much bigger payday. It's not fair is it. Putski was awful and yet he was probably more over than any wrestler save for a select couple than anyone from the past decade. Is it because Putski was working smarter? No, he was just lucky to be in that time in that place. But I am ideologically opposed to ROH and to actively breaking kayfabe in the product. My dislike for "the modern product" has never ever been based on match quality or anything to do with wrestling, it's a "feel" and atmosphere thing. It's a presentation thing. I'll consider guys from the past 10-15 years for the purposes of this project, but I make no secret of the fact that I'd much, much prefer to watch wrestling from back in the day when it was still authentic, when it still meant something, when the crowds and workers were less self-conscious and more organic. I blame Russo. I blame Bischoff. I blame Heyman. I blame Gabe. I blame the internet. I blame idiotic promoters and terrible bookers. They broke wrestling and now it's nothing at all like what I want to see and so I don't watch it. I don't blame the workers, which is why I'm giving them a shot. But at the same time, the surrounding context -- which I actively hate -- is almost certainly going to produce tendencies in the work that I don't enjoy. It's not exclusive to this era though. I mean, I generally dislike the trend in the 70s and early 80s of having dancing, jiving babyfaces. I hate Putski and Strongbow. I hate Road Warrior Hawk and The Ultimate Warrior. Every age will produce both great stuff and shitty stuff.

A knock in what respect? Matysik ranked Bruno as the fifth-greatest wrestler of all time in his book, so he couldn't have been too hard on him. This was in those 57talk.com booking sheets. Larry makes the point pretty much any time Bruno comes to town that he wasn't a draw in St. Louis. I suppose it comes across less like a knock on Bruno and more as part of Matysik's general "St. Louis was the most important wrestling town on earth" narrative. I'd say his tone with that Bruno stuff generally is to imply something like "he may have been in a star in New York [where they like big men], but he wasn't here in St. Louis [where they demanded only the very best wrestling]" Or something like that. Also, in that Top 50 book, I often get the impression that with some entries Matysik is just trying to come across as being "objective" in some way, despite some of his clear biases. The Bruno entry is almost certainly one of those, it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb like some of his modern entries, but you can tell it's a bit grudging.

If only Crazy James was still around to do the photoshop!

70s guys - even though my explorations are not yet complete, I have a good sense all of these guys will make it based on what I've seen and what I like Dory Funk Jr - in too many good to great matches to ignore, makes up for ostensible lack of charisma with superb counter wrestling, solid psychology, occasionally intricate limb work, and more bombs than you might imagine, probably a top 40 finish Jack Brisco - sort of guy who comes along only once in a generation, not even seen a quarter of the stuff yet but clearly one of the best workers in the world in his day, complete wrestler, probable top 20 finish. Prototype for every prominent NWA-type babyface of the 80s, but arguably more talented than any of them. Harley Race - will definitely rank, question is how high. Lots more to go, sometimes I love him, but he has a lot of habits I find frustrating. Billy Robinson - brilliant worker, among the best mat wrestlers of all time, but also mixes in high artillery offense and bumps with the best of them. Want to see everything I can, but should finish top half. Giant Baba - like Dory, in too many good to great matches to ignore, unique wrestler and contender for "smartest" worker ever. Have loved some of his 70s singles matches with Race. Top half finish for sure. The Sheik - I seem to like him more than 99% of other people. Performances in those Funks tags are world class, and I dug the hell out of the Steamboat match from All Japan. Quite a bit of 70s Sheik out there to explore. I should be able to find room for him -- possibly I'll be his only vote, who knows. NWA /WCW guys Ric Flair - nuff said, will be #1 or #2 when all is said and done. Arn Anderson - lock top 30. Love the guy. Lex Luger - will almost certainly rank because I have really loved him 87-91 and I already know I like him more than most in the rest of the 90s. Tully Blanchard - another lock. Hurt a little bit by longevity, but more great singles matches to his name than Arn. Might seek out some more pre-Crockett stuff from South West, there is quite a bit out there. Ron Garvin - will definitely rank, but how high I'm not sure yet. Love the Flair matches. Will seek out his stuff for Poffo in time. And need to see his Memphis stuff. Wahoo McDaniel - I love hard-hitting wrestlers. I want to rank Wahoo and he'll probably be in the 80-100 range. Would like to see more of him in the 70s. I also love Flair name-checking him in every promo ever. Ole Anderson - As with Wahoo, love his stiffness and surliness. Tremendous promo, arguably top 5 of all-time. Wish there was more 70s Ole available. Probable 80-100 guy. Ricky Steamboat - I'm higher on him than a lot of people. Everything a babyface should be. Think he's a victim of people trying to be trendy. I've watched the Flair trilogy in recent memory and they remain phenomenal. Great tagging with Youngblood with a fantastic performance at MSG against shitty Bulldog Brower. Great at selling, stiff strikes, good execution on his bombs -- possibly let down occasionally by some boring matwork, disappointing in Japan. Likely top 20 for me though, I like him that much. Bobby Eaton - Tremendous worker and star on any variant of the Midnights, never quite puts it together as a singles, but he's so good in so many matches that I don't care. Want him to place as high as possible. Love his offensive bombs, but great at punching, selling, timing and basically everything. His performance in the match against Bill Watts and Stagger Lee is something else. Ricky Morton - Lower on him than a lot of people because I want more to a guy than just ability to bump and sell, but he'll definitely rank somewhere. Barry Windham - Likely in 80-100 range, I'm lower on him than most, but he's too good not to place somewhere. LOVE his float over suplex. Ivan Koloff - Carried that Russians team and did a superb job of transitioning to working a different style in his later years. Genuinely very good in the squashes and stuff I saw from early 80s GCW, one of Bruno's better opponents in the 70s. I want to see more of what is available from Florida and elsewhere -- and there is some on tape which I have here. Underrated as a worker I think and should rank. Rick Rude - Rude in 92 is one of my all-time favourite guys and I will have to find a place for him somewhere, even if I think he sucked before 89 and his peak was pretty short. I couldn't love Rude with the short hair and mustache in WCW more if I tried. Possibly only Jesse Ventura loved him more. Vader - hard not to love his brutality, need to see more of him in NJPW, a lot of great performances, likely top 40. Eddie Guerrero - I haven't talked about the late 90s much, but I thought Eddie was fantastic in WCW and really liked him right till the very end even after he bulked up. A lot of superb matches. I remember thinking the Rey feud over the son and all that was great, just compelling TV and one of the last great things I can recall before I called time on watching modern WWE. I need to revisit him a bit to make a call on where he'll finish. Chris Benoit - I think he had too many good performances not to rank somewhere, even if I was always lower on him than most of the rest of the internet. I always preferred Eddie because he had better charisma, crowd control, and psychology, but Benoit was a suplex machine, and I love me some suplexes. Mid-South guys Ted DiBiase - my personal favourite wrestler from when I was a kid and think he's good at basically everything: selling, bumping, offense, punching and brawling, controlling a crowd, controlling the pace of a match, timing, just superb. Complete all-rounder. His peak is in Mid-South but his early career as a firey babyface is underrated, and I still have a soft spot for the Million Dollar Man that everyone knows about. I include 1988 in his peak. Will place as high as I can justify, which likely means top 25. Dick Murdoch - just to appease Will. No really, I have really liked the Mid-South stuff of Murdoch's I've seen, and especially like him as a heel. I wasn't that enamored with his later work in WCW. Have seen bits and bobs from St. Louis and elsewhere in the 70s. Need to see more of him in New Japan. Thought his matches in AJPW in 1980 were a bit exhibtion-y and boring. He will rank though for sure. Butch Reed - probably will be in 90-100 range but I think he looks fantastic circa 83-4, and really liked some of the Doom matches in 1990. I like POWER wrestlers and Reed both looked the part and did some sweet offense, while having better psychology than your typical Steiner brother. WWF guys Andre - will find space for him. Too good at what he did for too long to ignore. Great timing, and great at working "as a giant". Not as high as Matt D on his late 80s heel stuff, but he was better than the Scott Keiths made out too. I can't understand how some people think Bam Bam Bigelow was a better worker than Andre. Bob Backlund - I know I said he wouldn't make the 100, but thinking about it, he almost certainly will despite all my many reservations. Too many good to great matches to ignore. One of the most frustrating wrestlers ever for me. Arguably the best piledriver in the business. Hulk Hogan - don't know how he can't rank, one of the best ever babyfaces at generating sympathy from a heat segment, crowd control is excellent, connection with crowds off the charts. Performances in AWA and New Japan add to the legend. Really great circa 84-5, but can still turn it on when he wants to after that. Don't understand how he won't be making so many people's lists. Bruno Sammartino - in terms of connecting with a crowd, he has no peer. Tremendous fire, a unique rough and tumble style, can work the mat on occasion, one of the best comebacks the business has ever seen, and like Hogan one of the very best at generating sympathy. I think both Bruno and Hogan are better "working babyfaces" than, say, Dusty Rhodes, who relied so much on his promos and / or getting bloodied. I genuinely prefer them both to Backlund too. Wrestling is not just about headlocks, it's also about crowd control. Randy Savage - should finish pretty high, best working champion they had for 20+ years. Charisma off the charts. More great matches than anyone in that promotion for a long time. Good at many many things and consistently excellent for his entire run up to 92-3. Also has some good stuff in WCW. Need to see him in Memphis and ICW. Bret Hart - people probably think I'm down on Bret but I'm not, but I just think his advocates vastly overrate him and that it's absurd to think of him as a #1 contender. But he was one of the very best during his time on top, notwithstanding criticisms of his house show performances. He'll be on my list somewhere, Shawn Michaels likely won't be. Steve Austin - I don't really have a rep as someone who likes the Attitude Era, but Austin had too many great performances to ignore, and I'm not exactly in a hurry to revisit. But he'll be on my list somewhere too. Kurt Angle - I like suplexes and I thought Angle was legimately great before he lost his hair and started wearing a gum shield. Couldn't care less about his TNA run, and much, much preferred him as the goofy "Three Is" "It's True" heel, but he was too good at doing suplexes for me to leave off my 100. PWO probably goes too far in it's anti-Angle sentiment, even if it is "true" that he became very go go go. Need to revisit a bit to decide where he'll fall. 80s AJPW guys Terry Funk - could really be listed anywhere, but here seems right. Top 5 most likely. Has been impossible to ignore while investigating Dory Jr too, legitimately great. Stan Hansen - outside shot at #1 depending on just how great the 90s stuff is. Love his stiffness. Jumbo Tsuruta - only real contender for Flair's #1 spot right now, but time is running out. A lot riding on performances in 90-1 for him. Really love him, seemingly more than most. Generico Tenryu - need to see more of him in the 90s. In the 80s, I didn't like him as a face and thought he was the clear 4th best guy in a lot of the high-end tags. Only really comes into his own circa 88-89, when he becomes the moody ass-kicking leader of Revolution. Potential top 10 depending on what else there is in the 90s. Based on 80s though, more like top 30. Yoshiaki Yatsu - tremendous offensive wrestler who worked his arse off bumping and selling at 100-miles an hour in so many of those mid-80s tags. We have been seeing him in 1981 as a youngster working WWF for Titans recently, and he is one of the better workers on that roster. Need to see him in New Japan. Seemingly falls off a cliff in 90, but we have a whole decade of stuff before that. AWA guys Nick Bockwinkel - top 10 most likely. Complete wrestler. Possibly the most complete wrestler ever. Jerry Blackwell - I really like him bouncing off those cages. Will try to find space in the 80-100 range, which is going to be my home for a lot of guys I have generally warm feelings about. Rick Martel - phenomenal babyface, think he's been great in 80-81 WWF, and a lot of good performances in the AWA. One of the very best comebacks in the business. Great sense of fire and energy in everything he does. Will potentially finish above Ricky Steamboat. The embodiment of everything I think a babyface should be. Jack Brisco will do well to finish above Martel -- even if Brisco fathered the style that Martel mastered. He was pretty sexy too. Bobby Heenan - need to watch more of him in the 70s, but really great bumper and bleeder. Good shot at being my benchmark #100. Sgt. Slaughter - could have listed him for Crockett or WWF, doesn't really matter, the guy was really excellent from 1980 to 1985 and I think his WWF run in 1991 is underrated for how much he worked his arse off. Short peak, but a lot of great performances and a very solid "greatest hits" package of great matches everywhere he worked. Only thing is, I thought his matches with Hansen were a wee bit disappointing. Heat was off-the-charts during his heel run in early 80s WWF. Others Mr Saito - love the guy whether stooging in the AWA vs. Hogan / tagging with Fuji, dropping massive bombs as an asskicker, or working an amateur mat-based style. Saito could do it all. Kerry Von Erich - great babyface involved in a lot of good to great matches and I've not even watched him in Texas. Michael Hayes - if I can find room for him, I will. Great at crowd control. Off-the-charts charisma. Underrated worker. Good punch. Consummate cowardly heel when he wants to be. Singles run in 89 WCW undersold. Lou Thesz - need to watch more of that Chicago stuff, but Thesz was masterful in that Verne match, and his character work a legit surprise to me. Areas for further investigation: Buddy Rose - too much has been pimped to ignore, was great tagging with Somers in AWA. 80s NJPW - the key name here is Fujinami to me. He has been great from 80-1. But am also eager to see Choshu and co before jumping. 90s AJPW - doing the podcast with Steven, and am more excited about it than anything else right now. Just knowing what I like and from what I've seen already, you might as well reserve three spots in my top 10 and a fourth spot somewhere in my top 20 right now. I don't want to say that none of them have a shot at #1, but they are going to have to do a hell of a lot to finish ahead of Flair or Jumbo at this point. 00s Japan - the main priority is Akiyama who is a total blind spot for me. Don't think I've ever seen a match of his. I may take a cursory glance at modern New Japan too, but it is not high priority. Puerto Rico - dipped my toe in watching Dory Jr, and need to see those pimped Colon and Invader matches, and anything involving Hansen or Terry Funk Memphis - need to finish off 80s set. Dundee will certainly rank, as will Lawler, even though I'm not nearly as high on him as a lot of people are. I want more than punches, great timing and selling most of the time. Lucha - continue to struggle to get into it, and it may well never be my thing. Will get back to 80s Lucha set at some point. Trios matches continue to bewilder me. The matwork leaves me cold. The wilder brawls have been the best and easiest things to get into. I don't want to write Lucha off though, too many people whose opinions I respect think too highly of it. WoS - it's been the start of the new academic year, so been a bit pressed for time, but this is high priority and next on the "to do" list. I appreciate the work OJ puts into this. Modern WWE - I will look at Bryan, Punk, Rey, and Cena, and take a look at what Regal has been up to. I have a strong "style bias" against modern WWE main event style, and continue to basically hate the presentation, even though it is not as bad as it used to be. "Indie shit" - in particular AJ Styles and Daniel Bryan. Low Ki is actually growing on me. I have a strong "style bias" against the presentational aspects of 00s Indie, but the work has actually surprised me in how good it has been in terms of psychology and matwork. It has admittedly made me re-evaluate some of my preconceptions of the style. Joshi - will watch the stuff Loss recommends. Can see a couple of them making my list. ECW - very low priority, but will likely want to check out some 2 Cold Scorpio, because I like his WCW stuff, and want to revisit some of the Terry Funk stuff.

Choshu / Yatsu is one of my favourite tag teams. Revolutionary, amazing. I loved the mid-80s tags. After Choshu left and it was Jumbo / Yatsu against Tenryu and Hara in 88 I found it much more of a chore to get through.

By the way, Will, at this point I'm sold.