JerryvonKramer

I might have agreed with this 7 or 8 months ago, but I've come round more to the idea now that the crowd -- while it can enhance a match -- is not necessarily indicative of anything. Examples: 1. Magnum vs. Flair - the AWA crowd just shat on that match, does that mean the structure was wrong? Put that match on at the Omni with exactly the same structure and you get a hot crowd. 2. Road Warriors - why are crowds cheering for them? Is it because of the excellent structure of their matches or because they are two roided up dudes with spikes coming out of their shoulders and cool music?

What's the most extreme angle they'd done up to this point in 96 do you think? I got: - Savage being bitten by the snake - Ron Bass's attack on Beefcake (just remember the big red X censoring it)

I'd imagine it would be done off camera. You see a vignette or something with Windham sharpening a knife and taunting Mero. Then he kidnaps Sable Next thing we know she's in hospital That's pretty much the only way I can see it going down.

I'm going to have to take another look at Hennig vs. Hansen now. My take was that it was "just another heated back and forth brawl" with a young lion element that pales slightly against some of the other brawls around it (Hansen vs. Slaughter, vs. Blackwell, Rose/Somers vs. Rockers) My B rating is essentially a ***3/4. That's not at all bad, but need to see again with what you and Dylan have said in mind. ----- My point with Race/ Martel was mainly that if everyone is marking out for stuff like Hansen/Blackwell (myself included), there is no real reason not to mark out for an extremely well worked back-and-forth stadium match like that. There's nothing intrinsically better about a heated slugfest than a go go go bombfest. ---- The context stuff is interesting. My main concern with it is that it could lead to a kind of relativism. "This match was only meant to be this and look how good it is." I found myself going nuts for some of the NWA TV matches Chad and I watched recently and a constant question I was asking myself was: "would I still be as high on this if it was a PPV main event?" It's a difficult question, because the context does change things even if you don't want it to. Will and Johnny Sorrow have an exchange on this very podcast about what the "main event" of the card would have been, they agreed Blackwell vs. Hansen, with Rose/Somers vs. Rockers semi-main, even though both of them and mostly everyone agrees that the latter is the better match. But does that mean it is in danger of losing something if you put it as a main event? Is the rating for a match absolute or relative to its card positioning? Let's say you move Owen/Bret from Mania X and put it as the main event, does that affect how good the match is?

I don't want to jump the gun on the Yearbook, but honestly Piper just did my nut in as a kid and I never liked his scrappy style in the ring, so was curious what his rep as a face is currently. I will be going through the 1990 yearbook soonish. My sluggish journey through AWA is almost done. It's possible that Piper may turn out to be a Ron Garvin-style total u-turn from me. We'll see. If anyone has suggestions not on the yearbooks, though, I will check them out.

Does anyone actually like Piper after his big heel run? If so, why? Honestly, my whole life, I've just found him to be a massive irritant whether on commentary, doing stupid coked up promos, or doing whatever he does in the ring. So if you're a big Piper fan, talk me round.

Wow, Mr. Fabiano, where have you been? Is there no chance that the "slit throat" might have been more intended as a metaphor or just a threat even? Also, it's not impossible that they could have done an angle in which The Stalker attacked Sable and injured her throat in some way. The "slit" makes it sound fatal and therefore really edgy, but it could have just been a proposed injury angle. Perhaps Mero was against it because he didn't want Sable off screen.

I still have the New Japan 80s set to watch. Are the Cowboy Wally podcasts worth having as company? I've mostly enjoyed having Will and co in my ear during AWA, but have no idea who Cowboy Wally is. I may also be persuaded to check out the Texas set since there are casts for that too, but why do they end with disc 6?

We can talk more on this tomorrow because the context question is very interesting to me. I have to sleep, but I didn't confuse Hansen/Hennig and Hansen/Blackwell but can see how it looks that way in the post. I jumped from one to the other, because I think Hansen/Blackwell as a straight unstructured brawl makes for a better comparison with an unstructured bombfest like Race/Martel. And because I've rated the two matches the same. Sorry, it was one of my 3-posts-in-1 specials. Three different and not necessarily related points.

I need to think on this a bit more, because I'm thinking about Jumbo vs. Tenryu and whether my ***** rating there genuinely didn't take context into account. A little conflicted on this. In good faith, I know I did take it into account. But I guess the question is whether that match is ***** regardless of context. I want to say something like, with the best matches, all the story is told from bell to bell. That the differences in philosophy between Jumbo and Tenryu would be obvious even if you watched it in a vacuum. Hmmm Edit: this is definitely the case with something like Magnum/Tully, but with Jumbo/Tenryu, I'm honestly not sure and frustratingly can't really "check" it because I have no way of watching it now without the context.

I will say that on reflection my rating might be a little low for it. I do think it's the best Curt performance so far by some distance. And he did really fucking bring it in that match. His punches are great. For me though, context while important, doesn't add to a match's rating. I've said it before: Flair vs. Sting, Clash 1, doesn't matter what it did for Sting's career, it's an average match by Flair standards. For me, the fact that it made Sting doesn't add anything to the rating. Race vs. Flair, Starrcade 83. Again, I think it's not much more than above-average for a Flair match. The context doesn't do much to the rating. (The reverse is true also, Garvin vs. Flair, DESPITE the context is ***** or near enough - both the title win and Starrcade) So let's say I'll watch this match again, I can see myself bumping it up to a B+ based on Hennig's great performance and the brutality of Hansen. But even after that, I don't think it's particularly focused. I get the narrative: Hansen murdered Hennig first time around, now it's much more back and forth and a real coming of age for Curt. But even taking that context into account, I've seen LOADS of "young upstart takes veteran big name by surprise and takes them to a draw" type matches. I'm not sure what this one is doing that's so compelling that some other ones I can think of aren't. ------ A word on Race/Martel. This is a match, like Hansen/Blackwell without a lot of "structure". As in, it's action-packed, back and forth and all over the place. But I would refer readers back to Matt D's post on page 1 of this thread. What's the difference between something like Hansen vs. Blackwell and Race vs. Martel? One has a load of cool, violent punches and slugfests, the other one has a load of cool suplexes, piledrivers and awesome firey comebacks from Martel. If you're not going to complain about structure with Hansen/Blackwell, I don't see any real reason to for Race/Martel. If you're going to mark for the action in Hansen/Blackwell, I don't see any reason not to mark for the action in Race/Martel. I honestly think Martel puts in a GREAT babyface performance in that match and Race does what Race does best: crazy bumping and cool offense. It might not be fashionable to like a match like that, but I honestly thought it was great. I totally get that Race/Martel was a match more or less in a vacuum by two guys not even with the promotion, and Hansen/Hennig had a much more interesting story around it, but I don't think it particularly matters. -------- This might all seem odd coming from a guy who has argued that "the match" is just one part of the grammar of pro wrestling in which angles, character, storyline etc. are just as important. But I think you can rate each of those things on their own terms. Ergo, with your typical Dusty or Hogan feud you might get some great promos, a really compelling story, but just an average match at the end of it. The story can't really bail out the match if the match isn't that good on its own terms.

Disc 7 rankings This was a very strong disc all-in-all, as strong as most of the high-end discs on the All Japan set. A Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (8/30/86) A- Rick Martel vs. Harley Race (4/20/86) Stan Hansen vs. Crusher Blackwell (6/28/86) Mike Rotundo vs. Doug Somers (5/1/86) Stan Hansen vs. Nick Bockwinkel (4/20/86) B+ Alexis Smirnoff, Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers & Curt Hennig (6/28/86) B Stan Hansen vs. Curt Hennig (5/31/86) B- Nick Bockwinkel vs. Boris Zuhkov (8/30/86) Mike Rotundo & Curt Hennig vs. Mr. Go & Larry Zbyszko (5/1/86) C+ Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (4/20/86) C Col. DeBeers, Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Nick Bockwinkel, Steve Pardee & Brad Rheingans (5/31/86) C- Col. DeBeers, Larry Zbyszko & Doug Somers vs. Greg Gagne, Curt Hennig, & Jimmy Snuka (7/26/86) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Jesse Hernandez & Leon White (5/1/86) D Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Scott Hall & Curt Hennig (5/17/86) D- Sherri Martel vs. Debbie the Killer Tomato (7/26/86)

Bock vs. Zukhov Zukhov with a ridiculous ponytail potruding from his massive bald head. Possibly the worst look of all time. More great shots of 80s fans. I've never taken heroin, but this must be what "coming down" feels like. There is another sleazebag wifebeater-vest wearing fan with a moustache I can focus on. Zukhov's control segment is not all that bad here in fairness. He's working the leg pretty well and Bock is selling it. Without having seen them all, I can safely predict that this is better than every single Zukhov WWF match ever. Figure-four!!! An unnamed leg-submission hold! Bock starts his comeback with a kneelift. Not bad at all considing this was a Boris fucking Zukhov match. Got to be his best match ever right? B-

Rose/ Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (2) Some great shots of 80s fans here. Man Michaels has colour early. After criticising Somers's punching before, it is really good here. Rose is laying it in now. Crowd is absolutely electric. Somers is a great dick heel here laughing at Jannetty. Shawn is bleeding profusely. Michaels's comeback attempts during the hope spots are great. HOT TAG. Jannetty unloads, crowd is insane. Somers gets his face smashed on the ringpost. Rose is in. We transition to another FIP sequence now. Jannetty has colour now. Somers has colour. There is a lot of blood here. Jannetty is wildly swinging covered in crimson. Rose in. Jannetty bites him. Tag to Shawn whose punches here are great. Some huge bumps to the outside. Rose drops Jannetty on the chair. Crowd is electric. Ref has lost control of this one. I don't think I love this as much as pretty much everyone else. I think, in general, there is a lot of marking out for the amount of blood, but it is still awesome. A NB. A* is my highest rating as in *****, so this is a ****3/4

Sherri vs. The Killer Tomato What on earth is Sherri wearing? What on earth is The Killer Tomato's hair? What's with her name? Some armwork to start. Sherri sells it pretty well. Headscissors. Couple of airplane spins from the Tomato. Legdrop from Sherri. Oh, she just kicked Sherri in the face after a legsplit. Clothesline. Crowd are into it. Big splash to finish! Not really understanding Chad's utter hatred for this match. Come on, it wasn't THAT bad. This was ***** compared to Regal vs. Zumhof. D-

Col. DeBeers, Larry Zbyszko & Doug Somers vs. Greg Gagne, Curt Hennig, & Jimmy Snuka Two interesting teams here. Unusual match-up. Rare appearance on this set from Greg post-Brunzell here. Looking more like The Riddler than ever. If Christopher Nolan ever does another Batman, he should cast 1986 era Greg Gagne in that role. I really like De Beers. Something of a revelation for me. Hennig's offense during the hot tag is pretty cool. Not quite as good as the 6-man with Pardee, Bock and Brad. C-

I'm really disappointed DVDR is still down Dylan because I enjoy seeing how my views compare. I'll be honest but I'm not really seeing this great worker in young face Curt Hennig on this set. I didn't think there was any real focus in Hansen vs. Hennig II, and if you take Race vs. Martel as a basis of comparison (another bomb-heavy not particularly focused match), Martel outworks Hennig in practically every way in terms of offense, fire, and selling.

I'm not sure if these guys will count since one of them is great and the other at least serviceable at that stage in his career but I LOVED Bagwell and Scorpio. Loved them. That was really weird for me because I was such a heel fan. Then I instantly hated Stars and Stripes.

Alexis Smirnoff, Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers & Curt Hennig Smirnoff looks like the nephew of Mad Dog Vachon. This 6-man is being worked at a faster pace than the last one. I like that. Awesome rib breaker on Hennig by Somers. Hennig's selling is great during the FIP sequence. Wow, big kick by Smirnoff in Hennig's face. Another rib breaker! Rose's knee lifts are great! Loving this FIP sequence. Jannetty gets the hot tag. Great powerslam on Somers. Really enjoyed this. B+

I will weigh in on the Matt D punches / high spot stuff later. It's an interesting debate. Stan Hansen vs. Crusher Blackwell I am so looking forward to this. Hansen immediately hammers on Blackwell. MASSIVE headbutt from Blackwell to come back. This match starts with a level of intensity and brutality that I hope they can keep up. Hansen is just BEATING THE SHIT out of Blackwell here. Awesome awesome awesome so far. Hansen has colour. Blackwell is bringing it. Hansen punching Blackwell is awesome. Slam attempt, of course Hansen gets squashed by Blackwell. Hansen's face covered with blood is a great image. This bearhug inevitably slows things down. BIG SPLASH. Hansen has the boot. Ouch. Now Blackwell's face is lacerated. This was great, everything I hoped it would be. A-

Johnny Sorrow: "The crucifey" I laughed. Stan Hansen vs. Curt Hennig Where has Jerry Blackwell been all this time? Out injured the whole time? Wow, Hennig's offense at the start of this is pretty firey and effective. Hansen quickly takes over, but not for long. Hennig's punching is really good in this match. Back suplex. Piledriver. Devastating kneedrop. Hansen's offense always looks like it is so painful. Very back and forth stuff this match, not a lot of structure. When you compare it to something like Race / Martel, I don't think the bombs were on that level or the levels of fire or really the selling. It was good, but lacked focus and the cool shit wasn't that cool so ... B

Eager to get through more and DVDR seems to be in perpetual limbo. I like that KrisZ is a regular on these podcasts by this stage, he's like the Spock to Johnny Sorrow's Bones. Col. DeBeers, Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Nick Bockwinkel, Steve Pardee & Brad Rheingans I seriously object to the awesomeness of Bock tagging up with a total chump like Rheingans. DeBeers with Rose and Somers I can get behind though. Prospect of Rose and Bock going head to head is exciting. This seems to take FOREVER to start. Rose gets nailed with beer from a fan! The wristlocks on DeBeers by Jobber Brad are actually pretty neat here. Pardee continues decent armwork on Rose in a cool sequence. Now it's Bock's turn on Somers with the armwork. Bock is doing heel tactics here! That's pretty good continuity. Pardee is pretty good, both on offense and taking punishment. This is all a little slow for my tastes. I want a bit more action out of a 6-man. The FIP sequence focusing on Pardee's leg is not bad at all though. Nothing offensive here, but not much more than that. C

Maybe khawk, Dylan or Matt D could say more but I feel like a "typical AWA match" has a different structure from your typical WWF or NWA match. For one thing, there's a lot more "King of the Mountain" spots where the heel is keeping the face on the outside. In a lot of WWF matches, it is the inverse: the face(s) hit the ring and have their big explosive shine sequence and the heel(s) clear(s) the ring. How many times have we seen that? There's more to the AWA differences than just that spot, but it's a distinct enough style, I think, to be mentioned. ----- I also feel like a "typical Hogan match" should be represented. That's quite different, I think, from your HBK-inspired "WWE Main Event style".

At least Flair sometimes hits that move off the top. There are spots that never ever hit. When did DiBiase ever hit the second-rope double axe-handle? (for example) I'm with Loss, however, that someone maneuvering themselves into an unnatural position is worse because it is more kayfabe breaking. You can reason out why the heel keeps going for the same move that fails. Why does Wile E. Cyote keep trying to get Road Runner? Why does Dick Dastardly keep cheating to try to win the race? Villains are prone to being delusional and pig-headed and repeating the same mistakes again and again. There's no way of really explaining what why someone is getting themselves into a position to take some signature offense though. That said, I don't really understand why there's so much focus on Rey specifically in this thread. Perhaps people just like talking about Rey and this is a nice pretext for it.

They are bad. I'd argue that this is conventional enough to be considered "part of wrestling logic". It's just one of those things: that in wrestling after an Irish Whip guys just keep running until they explicitly break it with the ropes, or get hit, or pull off a dropkick or something. I don't know if the line and ducking are really necessary though. If the move you are talking about is a scoop powerslam then loads of guys do that move. If Orton requires a ducked clothesline every single time he does it, then he's introducing a level of contrivance that doesn't need to be there. The only setup required is an Irish Whip / or that the guy is already from some other cause: Here's my man Ted DiBiase doing one Looking for examples on youtube of Orton doing that move, it doesn't look like he always requires the ducked clothesline: - arguably quite an innovative use of a scoop powerslam - the ducked clothesline is only there once or twice. The ducked clothesline isn't bad in and of itself, but would be if it happened in every single Orton match. Ultimately, I think that guys keeping on running from the momentum of an Irish Whip is not a contrivance in wrestling. I think they are really bad, and one of the things I think is a problem in the current style because there's much too much of this sort of egregious nonsense. I went to an Indy show a while back where every other move was like this. Suplex. Slowly rise FOR AN AGE. Some superkick variation. Suplex variation #194. Slowly rise FOR AN AGE. Superkick variation #43. What happened to: Suplex. Stomp. Elbow drop. Knee drop. Maybe a chinlock now? I really dislike the "slowly rise to feet" element that has crept into wrestling. It's bad. Yep, bad too. This one can be explained that they are going for charge in the corner. A GOOD wrestler will make it look like they are attempting some sort of offense. A BAD wrestler will make it look like they are just setting up their opponent's move.