JerryvonKramer

This is a good point and one that may take my $1 bet and make me a millionaire. Guess Dylan is right.

Kris, you have to admit that Patera was not your typical NWA-champ style of worker. Was he? What about him remotely resembles the type of worker they'd had for the past 15 years? Is Patera now this super worker all of a sudden? It would have been a change of direction. I don't think the fact they went with Flair in the end was purely political. They also kept talking about DiBiase even into 85. Why? It's not because he was a draw, it's because he was that type. I'm not saying there wasn't a push for Patera and a campaign for him. Just that it's hard to imagine him in that role.

The reason I'm not sold on Patera in 81 is partly because, as much as work by your good self has shown that he was a proven draw, he doesn't strike me as the NWA champ type. The perennial "nearly man" for the NWA title was DiBiase. Why was that? It's because he had a rep as a broomstick worker. I'm not sure that Patera did. We're literally talking about putting Patera in the Race/Flair traveling champ role here right? I can see DiBiase in that role. I can see Barry Windham in that role (not in 81 obviously, I mean in general). I can even see Greg Valentine in that role. Patera though -- and nothing on the AWA set has shown me otherwise thus far -- was a power man. He did bearhugs. That's not to say he was a bad worker, but that he wasn't the TYPE of worker that they typically went for. My (admittedly rather weak) suggestion for Ivan in 83 has acknowledged it would have been a big change of direction for them to have a guy like that as champ, even for a few months. I think Patera in 81 would have been a similar change in direction. I don't doubt that "it was discussed", but then Tito as WWF champ in 92 was "discussed". --- To go back to this Ivan in 83 vs. Patera in 81 thing. I don't think either of them are very likely. A $1 bet would probably get you a nice return, enough to book your summer vacation plus the drinks. What it boils down to for me is the role. The 81 role is really fucking important. Giving it to Patera would be a sea-change in policy. I don't think Patera was ever that travelling champ style of worker. You've studied the shit out of him, I've seen a dozen or so matches, so if you have reason to believe otherwise I'm all ears. He doesn't seem like NWA champ material to me. That's not a knock, that's just saying it's a round hole and he's a square peg. The 83 role, let's face it, isn't THAT important -- it's a guy to hold the strap for a few months and drop it back to Flair at Starrcade. If they can't get Brisco, the Funks, DiBiase, Hansen, Brody or any of those type of guys, you're looking at guys with national exposure who could have been fit in there vs. guys who could do a job. Valentine, Slaughter, Piper, who else is in there, Paul Jones? Dick Murdoch maybe? Ivan is on the list of those guys. Obviously, it's far far from ideal and probably yeah one of the other guys gets the nod in that scenario, but it's within the realms of possibility for them to go for it. We're talking margins here, but the case for Patera in 81 seems off to me. You sold me more on Brunzell as WWF champ and I never thought I'd hear myself say that.

There isn't one, it would have been a radical change of direction for them and I have touted it as being a possibility that may have come about if certain other avenues were closed to them. I also said that it would have been a drastically shorter run , 30-60 days rather than 6 months. Contrary to popular opinion I'm not completely insane, and my grasp on wrestling history not as loose as you'd probably like to think. I just think Ivan might have been someone they could have turned to as a desperate backup. Stranger things have happened. The thing with these scenarios is that plausibility is to some extent illusory in wrestling. Let's say Backlund didn't get his title win in 94, anyone on here would be laughed off the board for suggesting it as even a remote possibility. My point with Ivan is only that it might have been an option in certain conditions. That's all.

Except we know that they ran Flair vs. Nikita in a American vs. foreigner angle just 2 years later. My unwillingness to get into 81 is because the parameters of that scenario haven't really been fleshed out. Is this a world without Flair? Which title switch are we talking there?

Side point: what about Slaughter?

Dylan, there is no real "case" for Ivan I'm just saying it was a realistic possibility. Why? There's a parallel over in WWF: Iron Sheik. Was he definitely the BEST possible pick in the entire world to be transitional champ between Backlund and Hogan? Or was some part of it the fact that he was just sitting there in the locker room? It was easier for Vince to turn to Sheik than to pick up the phone to get in any one of about 10 guys who might have been "better" in that role. Granted, many aspects of this analogy are imperfect: - Crockett didn't have sole control of the NWA title and so it wouldn't have worked the same way, there'd have had to have been meetings, whereas Vince could just point to Sheik and say "you'll do" - Sheik was closer to his prime than Ivan - Sheik was acting as a 1-month trasitional champ, whereas this role was as a 6-month interim champ My point however was, in the absence of Race: - Jack Brisco had complications, jdw has outlined them - Dusty wouldn't work heel - Terry was retired / in a retirement angle in All Japan - Hansen was in Japan - DiBiase worked for Watts - Patera was in the AWA Each and every one of those cases involves numerous phonecalls, the hashing out of deals and so on. In such a case, it is perfectly conceivable for the booker to start looking around the locker room. Granted, Valentine is a stronger candidate. I never said he wasn't. But they would have looked at Ivan as a guy who: 1. Had held a world title before 2. Had national recognition, literally all over the country 3. Had easy cheap heat from being Russian, easy face heat for Flair (see also Sheik parallel) 4. Had ready-made storylines that could develop from the initial feud So you are Jim Crockett in that NWA board meeting. "Guys, these are the options here. We can go Valentine, he's a good hand, we can trust him, he's over ... or there's old Ivan. He's been there and done it, everyone knows him, might draw a few gates" All I'm saying is that -- in this scenario where Harley Race is dead or permanently injured or out of the picture for any other reason -- something like this could have taken place. "Well, Jim, we could try calling Brisco again. One last shot for him, might have had a change of heart since 78" I can see Ivan being a CONSIDERATION in that way. He's not going to be number 1 or even 2 or 3 or 4th choice, but he might be a convenient backup. --------- I think the situation in 1981 is very different. It's not the same sort of decision. I think it's a much bigger call to go with Patera there. Again, sure, he would have been part of such conversations. But those conversations coming to fruition, I think, have greater contigencies to overcome than the Ivan scenario. This has NOTHING to do with Patera's standing in 81 or Ivan's in 83, it's simply a pragmatic take on what might have gone down.

How close was the Crockett office to the Georgia office pre-Black Saturday? How often, for example, did Flair turn up on the WCW show as run by GCW?

Right, so by this rational if it's not a former champ, it has to be a Crockett guy or former Crockett guy correct?* I mean "good for Crockett bad for the rest of the NWA" is just hard cheese. Speaking of which, how about Piper? * OR, was TBS still wrapped up with Georgia at that point?

Apart from Race and the other former champs, who actually had national recognisability in 1983? I'm talking about someone that fans from LA to New York to Kansas to Florida to New Orelans would have heard of. Outside of Andre, who else is there? Was Wahoo known on that sort of level? Was Hansen?

I don't think Ivan is a great choice, I was just saying realistically he was RIGHT THERE and in wrestling sometimes it happens that they'll go with convenience rather than what is the best choice. You will likely not agree at all, but I think Ivan in 83 had a more realistic chance of happening than Patera in 81. If Ivan did get the title, I don't think it would have been in June but likely later. More of a 30-60-day sort of reign. Granted, that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade, but they could have built it up in various ways. NWA vs. old WWWF, USA vs. USSR etc. etc. Plus Nikita is around the corner. I'm not saying it's a great scenario, but if Race wasn't there I can see them looking at it as a possibility.

I know we all hate him, but what about Dory?

Depends if it's 81 or 83 we're talking here. If Funk is NWA champ in June 83 we don't get the retirement deal in All Japan that summer.

In that case, for the time being, I will offer the name Ivan Koloff, the man who defeated Bruno. He was around and still positioned quite highly on the Crockett roster. Fewer complications than securing Hansen, DiBiase or Jack Brisco at that point. Sets things up for Nikita's debut too.

Any reason why it couldn't have been Dusty?

A 5-6 interim reign is hardly going to tarnish anyone. Think of Steamboat who was an interim champ for less than that. I don't think it HAS to go to a former champ.

My immediate thought on seeing this OP and after scouring the reference books etc. for Backlund is that there are probably 10 times as many guys you could realistically put in the frame here than for 1977. I really mean that. All told there were about 3 viable guys we named who could have taken the Backlund role. I reckon there's about 30 guys we could put in the frame here, of whom 5-7 would be really compelling cases.

The previously-mentioned Jim Brunzell would be my pick based on this. My only query with Brunzell is would he have been considered more of a cruiserweight in that timeframe? This may seem like a really minor point, but a lot of the champions were around the 240-245lb mark. Backlund was 241lb, Flair 243lb, Race 245lb, Bockwinkel 241lb, Dory was 240lb. Savage at 237lb in 1988 was considered small. Brunzell was 235lb. Would that have been a real factor that would have been considered? Bruno was 265, Stan Stasiak 270lb, Graham 275lb, Ivan Koloff 298lb. The only smaller guy they'd had since Buddy Rogers in 1963 was Pedro. 5-6lbs might not seem like a lot, but coupled with Brunzell's highflying style I wonder if he wouldn't have been perceived as a heavyweight champ. Any thoughts?

As probably Ted's biggest fan on these boards, I've always maintained that Ted is a really bland face. Nothing I've seen of his in MSW challenges that. I'm not sure he ever got that much better as a face. 86 DiBiase is only marginally more firey than 79 DiBiase (and mostly when he had good storyline reasons to be). His biggest moments a babyface all stem come from the turn when he was challenging Flair and the famous angle with Murdoch. Anyone was going to get a big sympathetic reaction there. But I'm not sure he was that effective as a face after that angle was over. I think that turn -- as great as it is, and it is one of the all-time great turns -- is kind of an "artificial turn". It didn't happen because fans were gagging to cheer Ted, it happened as a neat way to create a new headline face for Watts. This is important though because Ted got over and connected with the fans primarily as a heel. The cheers for the loaded glove, for example, were in a sense historical cheers for a guy they use to love to hate who they now like because he's been beaten to a pulp by Murdoch. "Boring Dory" is not an exaggeration in my view. Ted's undoubted charisma only seems to come out when he's working heel. This was even true when he was a manager. Remember him with the Steiners?

Going through various reference books here looking for guys who were active in the late 70s with the right sort of age profile and there really aren't many who we haven't already mentioned. I've tried to filter out guys who would have definitely been perceived as "too southern". Austin Idol - not sure if was actually around in 1977. Would have been totally unknown in New York, but he had a look. Leroy Brown - big black guy who was a face in the late 70s, put on some weight and later became one half of the Zambouie Express. Not a lot of info on him, but he was around. Tiger Conway Jr. - I assume everyone knows him. Perhaps a bit lightweight for the Backlund role. Fred Curry - son of Wild Bill Curry, reputedly could do 15 dropkicks in 10 seconds. More of a high-flyer. Would have been 34 in 1977. Larry Hennig - 41 in 1977 but over as a face for both WWF and AWA in his time. Couldn't see him being more than an interim champ but he would have been reasonably famous at that time. Jose Lothario - while he had no history of working up north, he could have been positioned as an ethnic-type champ. What was New York's Mexican population at that time? Bit on the old side though, 43 in 77. Joe Malenko - he debuted in 1977. If the whole idea with Backlund is that Vince Sr was trying to prove a point that his champ could have been "anyone", then Mr. Charisma here might have been a fit. He was 22 in 77. No idea where he actually was at that time. If we're going for guys as young as 22 though, no reason to believe that he'd have picked someone like this over DiBiase. Earl Maynard - can't seem to find a date of birth for this chap, but he won the Masters Mr America in 1977. He was basically a bodybuilder who who wrestled in LA tagging with Rocky Johnson. Seems like he worked for Vince Sr in the late 60s. Now this is a bit of fantasy booking but wouldn't Maynard vs. Billy Graham been quite a money angle in 77-8? A genuine Mr. Universe takes on someone who *thinks* he's a superstar? Stranger things have happened in wrestling. Steve O - If we're considering Jim Brunzell and Greg, I guess we have to consider Steve O. I hate Steve O. Johnny Powers - would have certainly been known to the WWWF audience after his run-ins with Bruno and at only 34 would have been in decent shape. Would have involved buying him out though and that's not typically the way Vince Sr rolled. Tito Santana - he debuted that year, if Rick Martel is on the table, then why not Tito? Arguably had greater fire than Backlund. Alexis Smirnoff - 30 in 1977. Another LA guy, reputedly in the mould of Ivan Koloff. Heel transitional champ? Talking very long shots here. Ray Stevens - 42 in 77, and the legendary team with Bock was about to breakup with Stevens turning face. Another long shot. Jay Youngblood - 22 in 77. Can't see any reason to go for him over Steamboat, but he was around with 2 years of experience. ----- Pretty poor return all in all. As far as I can see there aren't many compelling alternatives to Backlund.

Wasn't it in the Larry Matysik thread that we were talking about St. Louis being "the Harvard" of wrestling? I think what's more likely is that holding that belt or main eventing there was like "the Sam Muchnick seal of approval" and the other promoters really respected his opinions on workers. Something like that. There seems to be a direct 1:1 relation between guys who main evented St. Louis and smart fan favourites of that era.

What were either Adrian Adonis or Paul Orndorff doing in 1977?

On Kevin Sullivan - I considered listing him but as with Greg Gagne just can't SEE it. Sullivan surely didn't have the look to be a world champ. He was short and stocky. I'm pretty much spent on guys from the top of my head. If I get some time tomorrow I may bust out the various Wrestling encyclopedias / Who's Who guides I bought a few months ago. Not including Greg Oliver's books, I have about 4 or 5 of them now. One thing this thread has highlighted to me is that I have ZERO conception of what Backlund's standing was prior to getting the world title. I mean was he relatively unknown? Can someone make an analogy that would put it into context. EDIT: I say that and I even spent hours listening to a Backlund shoot once -- I think Terry Funk was interviewing him.

I've read plenty of slideshow articles on BR. They are often your first hit on google and on occasion can be okay. I just don't like slideshows. If the rest of the world loves them and that's been proven, then I'm happy to be an outlier on that. I'm a fuddy duddy curmudgeon about a good many things, it's nothing new. I like articles all to be in one page, like how most newspapers lay out their articles online. I think the slideshow format is overly fussy and irritating. But that's just me. Give me a million pounds though I'll click "next slide" all day if you want

This is actually quite a difficult one. If you say that A. Vince Sr. definitely wanted a younger guy and B. that he definitely wouldn't have taken a southern guy, you're not actually left with a huge amount to choose from. There are two other slightly older people who would have been around who don't really fit the Backlund bill but would have been people Vince Sr could have turned to: Angelo Mosca - another Canadian but a reasonably big star in 77 at the age of 38. Would have been a very different style of champ from Backlund. Spiros Arion - again, probably not the route Vince Sr was going, but he was an established star in that region and at 40 still a spring chicken in wrestling terms. What about southern guys Vince Sr had a record of using? Dick Murdoch? Stan Hansen? Beyond that the pickings are starting to look decidedly slim. Bobby Duncum?