JerryvonKramer

I think Jack Brisco could have feasibly been brought in 77 as a guy with massive rep, amateur cred and ability to go in the ring. Whether Vince Sr would have wanted to associate his title with a former NWA champ or not is another question, but in 77 Brisco would have been a top 5 star in the world no doubt about it. I think a lot of the people you've outlined there Dylan were just too young at that point to be given that role. I can see DiBiase in a Backlund role in 1980, for example, but 77? Backlund was 28 in 1977, of those you've mentioned the closest fit is: Jim Brunzell. He was 28 in 77 too. The others are younger by at least 2-3 years. Apart from Atlas who was 33. I'm going to throw out some other possible realistic candidates: Dick Slater - forget him as Terry Funk clone a second, he was a good hand. Would have been about 29-30 in 1977. And was talked about for the NWA title. I think he could have worked the Backlund role. Chavo Guerrero - again, he's about the right age. Obviously, he would have been an "ethnic hero" type champ. He could certainly play a good babyface. I don't know if he was ever considered reliable enough by any promoter to be a realistic pick, but if a 23-year old DiBiase is on the table then we shouldn't be too picky. Jerry Brisco - if there were good reasons not to use Jack, perhaps his brother would have brought less of an NWA association. From what I've seen, he was certainly good enough in the ring to carry the sort of matches that were asked of Backlund. Right age too. Raymond Rougeau - Rick Martel would have been 20 in 1977, Rougeau would have been 21. I can't see it at all, but this is true alternative universe stuff we're talking here. I think Rougeau is an under-appreciated worker. It may be pushing it a bit too far to make him WWWF champ at 21. Billy Robinson - He had cred. He worked a technical style. He was brought in to work Backlund on occasion. He would be on the long list in 1977. Blackjack Mulligan - would have been 34 and a 9-year pro in 1977. Would be a different style of champ and a different direction for Vince Sr., but surely he would have been in the frame as a guy who made his name in that territory? Bob Armstrong - a southern guy, sure, and at 36 not someone who'd step into the Backlund role. But he had legit cred. Surely on the long list. Bob Roop - a former Olympian. 33 in 1977 with 7 years as a pro. I'm not sure if he had the ability of Backlund and in my mind he was always best suited to a "gatekeeper" sort of role, but you've got to admit if you're looking for Backlund replacements he's not a million miles away. Buddy Roberts - here's an "outside of the box" suggestion. He would have been 31 in 1977 with 11 years of experience behind him. He surely had the ability and since charisma is not a key requirement, you could say he's the "blank slate" we're looking for. More I think about it, the more he's a strong candidate. Dory Funk Jr. - many of the same comments I made about Brisco would apply here, but at least superficially speaking, he has a lot in common with Backlund. Would have been 35 in 1977. Jerry Stubbs - 32 in 77. Good ring-technician with sound psychology. Why not?

As much as I still have a distaste for the site, I think BR has been improving of late. That Savage article by Keith Greenberg, for example, was a substantial piece of investigative writing. And -- for whatever reason -- they allowed him make it look like it had been written by an adult rather than an ADHD-addled 6 year old. I am referring of course to the "slide show" culture of having a 1-page article spread over 12 pages. I don't understand and have never understood why sites do that. Is that a generational thing? Do kids these days just love clicking "next page"? BR are employing some good, serious writers now. And that Greenberg article shows that it's perfectly possible for them to publish articles all on one page. Snowden's Shield article was pretty good too. No reason why it couldn't have all been on one page like Greenberg's article either. If they did a tiny bit more of that sort of stuff, and allowed their more insightful contributors a space to write at length, all on one page and not in these awful "slide shows", then there's no reason why it couldn't gradually improve as a site. A lot of my problems with it traditionally have been the shallowness of their top 25 lists and this slide show business. Good knowledgeable writers fix the first one, seemingly the latter is not set in stone.

Scenario: It's 1983 and the NWA World Champ and Captain Redneck are sitting in some two-bit bar. After reminiscing briefly about all their great matches, they get into a ding-dong about who's the best drinker. So they line up the shots and start to go. Who falls first? Place your bets now.

Also, one thing we can be sure that Meltzer isn't judging by the state of that room is OCD.

So for the past month or so I've been thinking "PWO's gone a bit quiet of late". I've just read the past 10 pages of this thread. Holy shit. I missed a lot of action there. From Meltzer has autism, to Andrews vs. Loss, to "Did Twin Peaks fail?", to bloody CRICKET discussion and a whole lot more. Thanks for an entertaining 40 minutes.

I think with Duggan it might be more accurate to say that he remained over long AFTER his initial push in 87/ early 88. Boogie Woogie Man Jimmy Valiant had that sort of thing too. Still got big pops right at the end. One of the difficulties of this thread is that in many cases when guys get a reaction bigger than their push, they often end up receiving a push as a result of that. Case in point: Sid in 89. He was getting Sting or Road Warrior level pops as Dan Spivey's partner. Elevation to main event was all but inevitable. Come to think it, consistently through his career Sid got face pops when he was positioned as a heel. In 89, in 92, in 96.

Brickhouse - The only possible counter-argument nagging in my mind is that I'm sure I heard or read somewhere that Duggan only did something like 3 clean jobs in 5 years (87-92) on tv. I find that hard to believe, but then a huge amount of his matches were DQ or CO finishes. If that's true, in one sense he was "pushed". But can anyone recall any Duggan angles or storylines? Only one I can think of is when he started tagging with Slaughter. Duggan always seemed to be positioned as the token loved babyface who the fresh monster heel could do some villainy on before a Hogan feud. Certainly that was his role when Yokozuna came in. Are there Duggan stories that I'm just forgetting here. What meaningful stuff was he given to do in his entire run?

We can debate this, but Jim Duggan? Did WWF ever push him really? He seemed to be a lower card guy for his entire run and yet the crowd always ate up his shit.

I do wonder if Funk is a massive beneficiary of the idea that less is more / "leave them wanting more". Funk is kinda like a special attraction isn't he? I mean he's never there week in, week out, so when he shows up it's a big deal. The two big runs, All Japan and NWA are both retirement angles. I also think that the inclusion of Hogan has changed the parameters of this thread a bit. On what metric is Hogan on the Mount Rushmore? Historical importance? Work? Drawing power? All-round performance including promos? A mixture of all of those things? There needs to be some clarification of what exactly we're talking about here.

It's on the list for sure, but I'm going for completism, so the second match will be interesting. Tully's probably the only guy who can challenge Flair for the number 1 spot at this stage based on quantity of great matches. Windham's a guy I'm going to be looking at very closely, because I think he's consistently underperformed on the big shows. His best match so far was probably that tag match from Clash 1. Best singles match vs. Sting at Clash 3. I feel I still haven't seen the best of Windham, so he's someone I'm hoping this process will help a lot.

Thanks Loss. We can't actually watch WWE.com videos in the UK. It's a really frustrating thing, but there's no way to subscribe, watch videos or basically do anything.

Always heard that Lanny being on a perm contract was another of his conditions for signing with WCW. Criminal they didn't do more with him. Just a handful of appearances in 4 years. Was it Loss who told me about his plan to do a version of the Gorgeous George character? Either way, I believe the stories, tallies with everything I've heard.

I've been through all the Horsemen set listings to see which matches are on which disc, and there are three I can't place: 22. Tully Blanchard vs Don Kernodle (Worldwide 05/11/85) - disc 1 23. Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (WCW Sunday Edition 08/11/85) - ???? missing 26. Flair/Arn/Ole vs Dusty/Magnum/Manny (Worldwide 12/21/85) - disc 7 24. Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (WCW 12/28/85) - disc 7 25. Ole Anderson vs Magnum TA (WCW 12/28/85) - disc 7 21. Flair and Arn Vs Garvin and Rhodes (2/22/86) - ???? missing 3. Tully Blanchard vs Ron Garvin (Worldwide 05/03/86) - disc 13 4. Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (Pro 05/86) - disc 14 6. Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (Worldwide 01/24/87) - disc 22 8. Ric Flair & Lex Luger vs Ron & Jimmy Garvin (6/27/87) - disc 26 9. Rock & Roll Express vs. Arn and Tully(9/19/87) - disc 30 10. Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (Cage match) (WWW 9/26/87) - disc 31 11. Barry Windham vs Tully Blanchard (WCW 01/23/88) - disc 35 14. Sting vs. Flair (Pro 2/20/88) - disc 36 15. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (Main Event 04/03/88) - disc 38 27. Windham vs. Tully (4/10/88) - ???? missing 16. Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs. Barry Windham & Lex Luger (4/23/88) - disc 38 Are we sure the dates for the missing matches are correct? For example, Arn seems to have a singles match on 2/22/86

As crazy as this will look: I debate Steamboat. I'd be interested to know if there's any consensus on him. Obviously, he has glorious peaks. In 82-3, in 87, in 89. And he was an all around tremendous worker, but ... there's something in the back of my mind that says he doesn't have the quantity of goods the other guys are shifting here. I would very happy if someone could come along with a massive list of great Steamer matches I haven't seen to disprove this hunch, because I love him, but I want to put it out there.

Here's the scenario. It's 1990. You have one spot on your roster for a female manager. Your choice is between Sherri and Woman. Who do you go for? Both of them had hot 1989s in which they were integral parts of long-running angles. I guess with Sherri you get more bumps. Arguably Woman is the slightly better promo. I ask this because I have no idea which way the PWO faithful would go. I'm not including a poll because I think they discourage discussion.

Is it sad a did a little "YES" at DiBiase making your top 11? I should point out that Martel is Canadian and therefore out of the running.

I reckon an 80s Mount Rushmore of Hogan, Flair and Choshu + 1 would not look wrong at all. Trouble is, every combination of who that +1 might be looks out of place to me. Lawler's too regional. Funk, arguably, isn't ace-y enough. Other folk from Japan such as Hansen, Fujinami, or Jumbo might leave the Mount looking "too Japanese". I think that's as difficult, if not more, as jpchicago23's original question.

Isn't this the Mount Rushmore concept? One question I want to ask for this: how important is it for the guy to have a full decade of work? Steamboat has a spotty 80s with periods of inactivity, and Bock retired mid-decade. Funk probably has fewer in-ring hours than many other guys too.

I'm not sure I get the stip for this thread. If it's US only does Funk still get in for sure? If it's all-in I think Hansen has to be there. And Jumbo is a very close 5th. If it's US only, I'm not sure how big the case for Hansen is. Chad -- thinking 80s only why is Savage closer to being a lock than Tully? Just think about their respective outputs. It's very close.

I've also just realised that Will's Horseman set will have all the Horsemen related matches -- which is most of them. Not sure why my first impetus was Youtube.

I have that set too and yes love that Morton match. I don't think we're going to be particularly strict about them being TV matches. Chad and I just had a bit of a panic because I guess I assumed that most of this stuff would just be on youtube, but it isn't.

Ha ha, I have that collection! I just never thought to look there. Thanks Loss.

Loss, are you sure on the dates for some of these? That Race vs. Flair 8/17/83 is something I can't even find listed anywhere. I've found a lot of the other matches, but that one is proving pretty elusive.