JerryvonKramer

The business has changed irrevocably since the territory days. Newcomers would face routine beatings from the likes of Hiro Matsuda, and once they were "in" face strictly split locker rooms, near-paranoid levels of protecting the business, and a life constantly on the move from one territory to the next. This system has given way to training schools and annual salaries, while the travel schedule remains intense. So three questions: 1. Have the ingredients for "what it takes to make it" changed at all between then and now? 2. Who from the current generation of wrestlers (any promotion) would definitely have made it in the 1980s? 3. Same question, but let's say in the Attitude era.

Exceptionally cool name.

It's not outright saying that "wrestling is a work", but it calls attention to it. Just like Finger-Poke-of-Doom did. That was a heel plan too. Nothing about that directly says that wrestling is worked either. This is a matter of interpretation I guess. I am only trying to relay what I think Meltzer is saying.

It's with RF and generally everyone has hated it. For whatever reason, Ric only agreed to discuss his post-2008 career and apparently stone-walled most questions.

It was the path that led to late WCW awfulness. That whole Aces and 8s thing is worked with a nod and a wink to the audience. My buddy soup would call it "cutesy". Finger Poke of Doom and all the other total shite with Hogan, Russo etc. after that point in WCW also had a fair dose of that, especially when the angles would reflect backstage politics. A lot of that stuff drew attention to the fact that wrestling is worked. It's the equivalent of a film commenting on its own conventions. Not always a bad thing. But it's definitely meta. It's drawing attention to the constructedness of wrestling. Find it difficult to understand how you guys are drawing the analogy with Sting and the Horsemen. Those guys did nothing to draw attention to the constuctedness of wrestling, they just didn't want Sting challenging for Flair's title. This has a little bit of that, but it's also got a healthy dose of late WCW flavour. Not "worked shoot", but Finger-Poke-of-Doom-esque total crap. Meltzer's point is that this shit doesn't work. It didn't work in the late 90s and TNA should know that but instead they are just doing it again. I, personally, don't care either way. But that's the point that Meltzer is surely making and it's not that difficult to get.

I can't believe that my humble little website is being blocked by people's work.

Can't believe I just spent 4 minutes of my life watching that shit. Wasn't Meltzer's point that this was just the worst sort of Russo-y meta-wrestling crap in the first place? Finger-poke-of-doom, NWO members lying down for each other etc. etc. The fake Battle Royale draws attention to the fact that all Battle Royales are scripted. Wasn't that his point rather than calling it a worked shoot?

Thanks Johnny, corrected it. Brick - you get a pretty major shout out on this one.

Where the Big Boys Play #44 - 80s TV Special Part 2 Chad briefly discusses Jake Roberts vs. Jim Neidhart from the notorious Heroes of Wrestling PPV and Parv talks about seeing Revolution Pro at York Hall in London before launching into part two of the epic Where the Big Boys Play 80s TV Special. 1. World Title: Sting vs. Ric Flair © (Pro 01/02/88) - Atlanta, GA 2. TV Title: Dick Murdoch vs. Nikita Koloff © (Worldwide, 01/16/88) - Richmond, VA 3. Western Heritage States Title: Barry Windham © vs Tully Blanchard (WCW 01/23/88) - Richmond, VA 4. Midnight Express vs Fantastics (Pro 03/26/88) - Richmond, VA 5. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (Main Event 04/03/88) - Spartanburg, SC 6. Barry Windham vs. Tully Blanchard (Main Event 04/10/88) - Spartanburg, SC 7. World Tag Titles: Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs. Barry Windham & Lex Luger © (WCW 04/23/88) - Jacksonville, FL 8. US Tag Titles: Midnight Express © vs Fantastics (Worldwide 05/14/88) - Chattanooga, TN 9. Barry Windham vs Eddie Gilbert (WCW 12/31/88) - Atlanta, GA 10. Ric Flair & Barry Windham vs Ricky Steamboat & Eddie Gilbert (WCW 01/21/89) - Atlanta, GA 11. US Title: Lex Luger © vs Dick Murdoch (Power Hour 10/30/89) - Gainesville, GA 12. TV Title (vacant): Sting vs. The Great Muta (Power Hour 09/01/89) - Cleveland, OH 13. World Title: Ric Flair © vs. The Great Muta (WCW 11/25/89) - Atlanta, GA BONUS: World Title: Ric Flair © vs. Ricky Morton (GAB tour, 07/05/86) - Charlotte, NC

I'm sure I've heard Chad mention he was into Dragongate.

I thought he was appearing on wifeswap with Roddy Piper soon. Apparently on that show he's shown leading "a flashy lifestyle". Who is going to pay $500 to talk to Flair for 5 minutes? Also, what's that $5k big gold belt he's selling?

Bruiser - can I make a request? The new Flair shoot has had really bad reviews. I want to know your take.

Either it's late UWF, sometime during his All Japan run or very very early WWF and before he was doing the character properly. He did work a bunch of WWF dates in the second half of 87 before ever appearing on TV. That pic could easily be from that time.

Ha ha. I am sad enough to think I can tell the year and even the time in the year of Ted in his entire WWF run based on the length and colouration of his hair, his costume and other small things. This pic seems like it's from a PWI, in particular this one from Jan 1988: The face he's pulling doesn't seem very Million Dollar Man to me, which is why I think it was taken before.

That Ted pic looks like he's doing the black glove pose to me. Could be late in his UWF run. He looked like that during that time and when in All Japan too. See here for example.

Is that picture of Jake really from his Mid South days? He looks like he has white hair in his moustache and his face looks old.

Would anyone take either Fulton or Gibson over Stan Lane? Would anyone take Rogers over Lane?

Little question here about the end of UWF and its titles. What happened to the UWF title? Was it merged into the main world title? Also, this Western Heritage States title. Why did they bother making that when the UWF title was there? Finally, in 85-6, as a sort of overhang of an older era, Crockett still had the old Georgia National title and their own old Mid-Atlantic title still active. The National title was unified with the US title, but what happened to the Mid-Atlantic title. This note on Wiki is quite cryptic:

Death from Above - have you seen the Garvin title win or their studio match from 85? If you are a fan of the Starrcade match, you simply must. Some of the Hogan stuff in 94 is pretty good, but Flair's anti-Hogan promo's in late 91 was just a thing of beauty for me. "When you were making movies Thunderlips, I was winning world titles" Bam. "I'm gonna burst that bubble Hogan!" I am open mark for Flair. Brick - is him sucking just him being not very cool though? What about him sucks beyond the fact he's bringing his kid out and being a generally slightly dated goody-two-shoes?

So now this is happening, I want to return to something I asked a year ago. There was always going to be a lot of DiBiase and Ross on this, but how many of these guys actually ended up being part of the doc I wonder? I was thinking about this yesterday and aside from Watts, Duggan, Dibiase and JR, who else do you think they could get? Mr. Wrestling II is in his 70s (but then so is Watts), here are some other names of reasonably prominent Watts guys who are still alive: Bob Roop Jerry Stubbs Matt Bourne (legends contract as Doink?) Butch Reed Jim Cornette (highly unlikely?) Bobby Eaton Dennis Condrey (under WWE contract) Ricky Morton Robert Gibson Killer Kahn Chavo Guerrero Hector Guerrero Jake Roberts Tommy Rogers Bobby Fulton Terry Taylor Dutch Mantell 1. How many of these guys would be willing to be interviewed? 2. How many of the guys would the WWE BOTHER to contact? Part of me thinks they'll just think "Oh, we've got JR and DiBiase, they are familiar to the modern fans, and we've got Watts so don't need anyone else".

I had the 95 one in mind. I genuinely love Flair as a character around that time. He's such an evil psychotic son of a bitch, really ramps up his heelishness. Remember when he dresses up as a woman? Ha ha ha. Also think Arn was at the peak of his powers in 95-6, and like their relationship. It's an underrated little period because there was so much Orange Goblin vs. Dungeon of Doom total shit going on that people forget the good stuff. Naturally once NWO comes along it's all swept away. Flair in 95-6 may well be my favourite version of him as a character, even if he wasn't having the 5-star matches by that point. With Sting, I just don't think the two guys ever had any chemistry. Flair seems to work Sting like he's "just another guy". Sting always feels like a cookie cutter opponent vs. Flair to me, whether it's 88, 89, 90 or 95. In terms of the matches, easily I'd take Garvin or Luger over Sting. ------------------ I think I'm ready for my three: 1. Steamboat - it was mentioned that Steamboat's character kinda "sucked" in 1989. I disagree. I think he was merely uncool. But what a perfect foil for Flair. Can't remember which show it was but we talked about that for like 30 minutes once. I reckon there's something in that contrast of characters that transcends wrestling. 2. Luger - how many times do you get to see a feud develop over 3 years with the two guys swapping roles at least once and then back again? You get the young lion vs. the arrogant "god of the world" champ in 88; you get the narcissistic now more experienced, no longer a rookie but oh-so conceited overachiever vs. the babyface legend in 89, and then the real total package world beater face vs. the "still up to his old tricks" champ in 90. And every match is great. Does it get much better than that? 3. Savage - reasons noted above. Honourable mention: Garvin. I don't think the story was really there for this, but just for the chemistry between the two and the sheer intensity of those matches.

Is that Orndorff match just that 10-minute TV match that made the Mid-South set? Seems a bit of a random inclusion if so.

I really dislike Flair vs. Sting both in terms of the matches over the years (Flair is never more boring or formula) and in terms of the stories, which are seldom memorable or compelling, save perhaps the awesome horsemen double cross, but then Sting should have seen that coming. --------- I am going to give another shout out to a feud that hasn't been discussed much: Vader in 93. Just a "one shot", but what a one shot it was. The build to and execution of that angle is exceptional, and for me both the culmination and peak of babyface Flair as an onscreen character. Tears everytime from me and the stuff with Race going back to Starcade 83 is legit great. Perfect angle.

One rivalry that often gets overlooked in Flair's career which I just LOVE his is one with Savage. The 1992 stuff is GREAT, the 1996 version storyline wise is even better. See my thread on it here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=14222 The matches are always very good, but Savage really brought out the total dick side of Flair's character. So that would be one of my three.

I think a strong aspect of the All-Japan tag structure, at least from what I've seen in the 80s, is that there's a hierarchy there on both sides with a senior and a junior partner. A lot of the structure is built around keeping the two senior guys apart. This is why it's so explosive and such a big deal when you get Tenryu and Jumbo in the ring at the same time in 89. I think viewed in context Yatsu / Choshu vs. Jumbo / Tenryu is a bit anomolous in the period, because while Yatsu and Tenryu were clearly the "junior" partners, a lot of those matches are worked as if the 4 guys are equals and you get literally 4 separate "in peril" sequences with each of the four guys taking punishment for a period. At least this is my memory from the All-Japan set. I'd like to offer the following. Some of these are based on observations from the past couple of years of watching stuff: - Double heat: This is where the southern formula is extended to take in two FIP sequences, typically with the first hot tag becoming the second FIP. A lot of longer RnR matches are worked this way. - Extended shine: This is where you get an unusually long heel-in-peril at the start of the match runing over 10 minutes. A lot of 80s tag AWA matches seem to have this structure. Another notable example would be Final Conflict (Steamboat and Youngblood vs. Slaughter and Kernodle) in which Kernodle gets his ass kicked for about 17 minutes straight before the first FIP sequence. - "Russians" match structure: Every Russians match featuring Ivan Koloff I've ever seen deviates from standard Southern style. Basically, Ivan did a lot of heel-in-peril segments, but it's a little more nuanceed than that. The main idea is that Ivan is the brains, but his partner (Nikita, Kruschev or Pietrov) was the big monster. So there tends to be a format in which the Russians are always at their most vulnerable when Ivan is in the ring. Something like: A. Russians gain control. B. Monster works over FIP. C. Tags in Ivan. D. Ivan somehow loses advantage E. Ivan either quickly tags out or they transition to heel-in-peril The reason this is a deviation from your traditional hope spots in a southern-style match is because the Ivan heel-in-peril sections can go on longer than a normal hope spot. And you can get several of them even in a 15-minute match. There's a lot more back-and-forth because the heels never stay on top for too long. I've seen dozens of Russians matches now where this has been the case and I think it's distinctive enough to count as an alternative structure. In theory, DiBiase/Andre and Haku/Andre should have worked matches like this, but I'm not sure that they did.