JerryvonKramer

Did JCP or any NWA organisation make overtures to Hogan?? Hogan actually wrestled Race in 83. 10/13/83 Kansas City NWA champ Harley Race no contest Hulk Hogan Super Destroyer beat Buzz Tyler Bulldog Bob Brown and Booker T beat Killer Karl Krupp and Jerry Brown Ron Ritchie drew Roger Kirby Mike Pagel beat Tonga John Angelo Mosca Jr beat Steve Sybert Considering they wanted to make Starrcade as big as possible, was an overture to Hogan around this time of big money plus the belt for a period completely out of the question? Didn't EVERYONE want a piece of Hulk? Was it written in stone that he was going to Vince after AWA? [edit: in the event they actually get Hogan, I guess that would mean Flair would be the heel - they keep the strap on him and Hogan goes over at Starrcade. A million NWA hardcores just turned to dust instantly at that suggestion. Whereever he's sitting Bill Apter just felt a shudder down his spine]

Looking at all the options again, assuming Funk and Brisco are out of the equation, it seems to come down to DiBiase or Valentine. I have some questions about Starrcade 83 here. How much was it "a JCP show" vs. "an NWA show"? And would there have been any possibility in running it somewhere other than Greensboro? For example, in Atlanta instead. From what you're saying jdw the main dilemma here is that Valentine was "too JCPish" for the other NWA promoters and DiBiase was "not JCPish enough" for the JCP crowd. If it came down to it, how do you see that being resolved? Would Crockett have persuaded the others to go with Valentine? If they'd have gone with DiBiase would there have been any question of not running it in Greensboro? ---------- Finally, is that really it? If it's not a former NWA champ are Valentine and DiBiase top options 1 and 2?

Did Wahoo ever work for WWE? With Chief-Jay Strongbow there, I can't imagine there would have been a spot for him. EDIT: Oh, he got his start there in 1965. Doesn't ever seem to have gone back though. Strange.

Not sure I understand this criteria: So only foreign guys who worked on American soil count? Does that also mean that any Japanese wrestler who worked in the US but not for WWF, but then worked on those co-promoted Tokyo shows in the early 90s would be disqualified? Did Jumbo ever work for WWF outside of those shows? Also, by that proviso and the mention of Thesz, this is ALL TIME. New Jack is there but Gorgeous George doesn't make the grade? The criteria is convoluted, it's something like: Wrestlers who might have feasibly worked for WWE but never did

I've become really interested in some of this Georgia stuff. Any footage? Also what happened in the scenario where a booker (Ole) intentionally tried to make the champ look silly? GCW was part of the NWA, wouldn't all the other promoters be pissed at him for pulling something like that?

Of course he was with AWA for most of that time. I did see him and Martel vs. The Highflyers on the AWA set. Found this interview: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2008/08/27/6592661.html Looks like an unhappy time for him. I'll let things get back on topic.

How about the MSW guys working on those shows? Wrestling II, Bob Roop, Duggan, JYD? Also, Tito Santana, a guy I thought was WWF through and through in that timeframe is on a lot of those cards. Did he leave WWF for a spell in 83 and then go back? Some of those Omni cards look amazing.

I did say that I thought Ivan was in Crockett and have admitted this was a mistake. Woe betide the day that you'd ever admit that the "complications" I had in mind for Brisco were the same ones you mentioned yourself later. But whatever man. The Red Sea will freeze before that happens. If we can turn the topic around back to wrestling rather than "is Jerry an idiot" I did make a post here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5546659 In that post I asked about how Ivan and others were working for GCW and WWF at the same time. He worked for GCW days before taking that chickenwing at MSG. That's a nice opportunity to educate me with your undoubted knowledge.

Look what happens if you actually go back and read what I said rather than creating straw-man arguments: "Woefully ignorant" I love it. Innocent bystanders swayed by the sheer force of the jdw hurricane PROVING time and time again how "illogical" I've been.

Not unavailable so much as unwilling. This was established in the thread too. That he didn't want to travel.

Just been having a look through 1983 results to see if anyone else might have been viable. Who was headlining shows etc. Couldn't help but notice that Ivan seems to have spent the first half of 83 working for GCW. Somewhat ironically given what happened earlier in this thread, look who he was tagging with: GCW @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - April 17, 1983 Brian Blair defeated Pat Rose Brett Wayne defeated Chick Donovan Paul Ellering defeated Tito Santana Ron Garvin defeated Killer Brooks Arn Anderson & Matt Borne defeated Ray Candy & Joe Lightfoot Tony Atlas defeated Buzz Sawyer via disqualification National Heavyweight Champion Larry Zbyszko defeated Tommy Rich Dusty Rhodes & Dick Murdoch defeated Ivan Koloff & the Iron Sheik (w/ Homer O'Dell) in a bullrope & chain match; Murdoch was handcuffed to Koloff and Rhodes tied to the Iron Sheik for the contest He was working for Vince at the same time: WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 25, 1983 Included Gorilla Monsoon & Pat Patterson on commentary: Eddie Gilbert defeated Jose Estrada at 5:58 Salvatore Bellomo defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna at 9:43 Mr. Fuji pinned SD Jones at 11:34 with a belly to belly suplex as Jones ran off the ropes Iron Mike Sharpe defeated Johnny Rodz at 9:31 Pedro Morales defeated Swede Hanson at 4:39 Prime Time Wrestling - 1/20/86: Ray Stevens pinned Tony Garea at 10:17 when the momentum of a crossbody by Garea put Stevens on top; after the bout, Garea cleared Stevens from the ring Jimmy Snuka defeated Superstar Billy Graham at 3:28 (Graham's last match at MSG for 4 years) Rocky Johnson defeated WWF IC Champion Don Muraco via count-out at 14:20 WWF Tag Team Champions Afa & Samula (sub. for Sika) defeated Chief Jay & Jules Strongbow at 11:55 Andre the Giant defeated Big John Studd via count-out at 8:22 when Studd left ringside after narrowly avoiding a bodyslam from Andre (WWE Hall of Fame 2004) WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) defeated Ivan Koloff via submission at 28:36 with the Crossface Chickenwing Seems to have been in JCP until late 82 and he was back in JCP by January 1984. What's the deal with those Omni shows in 83? They seem to have guys from every other territory working there that year. WWF guys, AWA guys, Mid-South guys. Were Georgia Omni shows like a "free-for-all"? Were they co-promoted? Or was it just that GCW had all these guys on their roster simultaneously with other companies in working agreements? Would be grateful for any elucidation on this. Couldn't help notice this either: GCW @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - November 6, 1983 (4,000) Pat Rose vs. Les Thornton Brad Armstrong vs. Joe Lightfoot Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated National TV Champion Ron Garvin to win the title Jimmy Valiant defeated the Great Kabuki Buzz Sawyer fought Abdullah the Butcher to a no contest National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) fought Dusty Rhodes & Brett Sawyer to a no contest Tommy Rich defeated Ted Dibiase (sub. for NWA World Champion Harley Race) via disqualification Don't know if there's anything to be read into it and it is probably entirely circumstantial, but Ted was subbing for Race there. Could this mean they might have turned to him if Race had been out for some reason?

Not at all. I listed them as being unavailable or difficult to obtain in this scenario. I never presented Ivan as anything more than a desperate and last-ditch scramble. I even said Valentine was more likely. Whatever though, believe what you want to believe. I don't take kindly to being called a liar but things have moved on. I want to see more posters.

A little carried away tonight aren't we? Can you actually read though? "I don't think Ivan is a great choice" "that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade" "I'm not saying it's a great scenario" Then later after several pages where we're not really talking about Ivan: "We've established that the Ivan option isn't a good one. Let's not beat a dead horse." You're flat out calling me some sort of charlatan now? Is this really about how many wrestling books I've read? Why don't you just take a picture of yourself beating your chest like Dino Bravo and be done with it? I take Bix's point. I've read quite a few of the books he lists, but clearly I could read some more and don't know early 80s stuff inside out. But I'm a liar now too? Come on dude. I do a mild bit of fantasy booking -- and granted, it was based on a mistake: the idea that Ivan was based in the NWA in 83 (I didn't know he was in WWF in that timeframe) -- and the end result is that you're calling me a liar? Seriously WTF? Are you drunk this evening jdw?

Jdw, can you find me anywhere in this thread where I presented it as a GOOD idea? I've consistently said it would have been terrible. As it happens a central premise of mine, that Ivan was "there" in the Crockett locker room simply wasn't true because he was in WWF. I thought, mistakenly, that he was at JCP in 83.

I might start a blog for the worst booking ideas of all time, see if I can run the entire NWA out of business before Starrcade 84. Jay Youngblood vs Ivan main event

If Steamboat is too goody two-shoes to turn, what about turning Yougnblood? Those two would have been hot coming off the Final Conflict feud. What could create a bigger heel than Youngblood stabbing his partner in the back? The "bad timing" can be turned into a virtue. Creating one mega face and one mega heel. Let's say the NWA board decide that Steamboat is number #1 contender for the title (while still tag champ), it's Steamboat vs. Flair, face vs. face. Youngblood gets jealous and screws his partner out of the title and puts him out with an injury. They are stripped of the tag titles because of the 30-day rule and no all of a sudden Youngblood is the new number #1 contender. Could do the same thing with Steamboat turning, of course, but it's really hard to imagine heel Steamboat.

The only thing I'd say about him in AWA is that whether it's Ventura or Blackwell on the apron, frequently he's the guy bumping around during those extended shine sequences. That's something I associate with NWA-champ style: a guy who can bump and make the opponent look good. Patera does his share of that in those tag matches. Where I'm less sold is on how he is presented and presents himself as a worker. His moveset is in the ballpark of "power wrestling". Bearhugs and full nelsons. Strongman moves. For all their differences, the Funks (and Terry in 75 worked a more technical style than he would do later from what I've seen), Brisco, Race and Flair all worked a certain style. They were "scientific" wrestlers. They were sold as tacticians. Even Brisco as a face was positioned and sold in that way. The point I was alluding to last night was that it was this reason that Ted was seen as a "logical" future champ by Muchnik and co. I don't think Patera quite fits that mould from what I've seen of him -- at least not without adaptation. I don't know what your perception of "typical NWA champ" is, you're right. Maybe you think "good worker regardless of type" is the only criterion. Or maybe Patera was "scientific" and the him as a power guy came later in his career. I've said I'll look at the 1980s stuff soon to look at the empirical evidence.

An index would have been helpful in that book. I can speak from experience that the process of putting an index together is a KILLER, usually down to the author and I can understand why Matysik didn't bother. Wish he would have though. I guess for our DiBiase vs. Patera in 81 talking point, the question would be if Muchnik's love of DiBiase and his love of Patera were about equal to the extent where it becomes a moot point. Both were rated by Muchnik. Neither of them were Giegel or Crockett or Barnett guys, and it's no conicidence that neither of them ever got that run.

One little thing from last night I'm not willing to let go because it rankles with me. Both Dylan and jdw did it and I must pull them up on it. Backlund had the belt for what, a day or two? It's not even close to the same thing. The point of Backlund winning the title was to instantly get the belt off the WWF's top face (Bret) and hand it a couple of days later to someone Vince wanted to be the new top face (Nash), without: * having to do Bret vs Nash at that point (save it to pop the Rumble) * having to job Bret to Nash (which Vince didn't do) * having the belt on Backlund for long (fewer fingers than are on a hand) That's not remotely the same thing as headlining Starcade with Flair-Ivan. Was that what I was trying to argue with that example? Let me write it down what I was saying in logical form so you can follow each step of the argument: Premise 1: Very strange things happen in wrestling [for example, Backlund in 94, for example, David Arquette, for example, Gene Okerlund had a match, for example ANY STRANGE THING THAT HAPPENED -- the example is illustraitive not necessary] Premise 2: Very strange things that have happened in wrestling that couldn't be have been predicted through studying the context. Conclusion 1: Therefore, anything is possible in wrestling, and anything is on the table. Conclusion 2: Therefore, give me a bloody break about Ivan. As you can see this is not an argument from analogy. At no stage in that argument am I saying that Ivan in 83 = Backlund in 94. Yet, that's the argument you are both countering there. Backlund in 94 wasn't the important point, it was an example of "something very strange" happening. Why did you seize on it in that way? Why did you make the inference that I was trying to say that they were THE SAME? Not accusing you of Bad Faith, but asking you to follow the argument and counter appropriately rather than this knee-jerk "must prove wrong with FACTS" response that has the sideeffect of putting me in a position of saying something I never said. To anyone just skimming this now and reading your posts there it looks like I was trying to say that Ivan 83 = Backlund 94. That's not fair. I don't want to be misrepresented. ------------- One thing more. The point about trying to prove Patera in 81 was more likely in Ivan in 83 was conceded here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5546449 Look at the time stamp. 23 minutes later, jdw posted this: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5546452 A massive post trying to demonstrate a point I'd already conceded. Why this overkill? --------- Finally, I am still sceptical about Patera being NWA champ. Very sceptical. Nothing about his work in AWA suggests to me that he would have fit that role. Although my early WWF project (79-83) is touted for later in the year, this debate has prompted some pre-emptive action: Since I have these matches, why not I'll give them a watch in the next couple of weeks in the Microscope. Anyone else unfamiliar with Patera from 1980 can join me if they wish. Under evaluation will not only be Patera as a worker in general, but also the claim made by Dylan and jdw in this thread that Patera was in fact an NWA-champ style worker in 1980. If he was, I'll be the first to say so. My scepticism stems from the fact that workers don't often make a wholesale change in their style in the space of a couple of years.

Where does Matysik talk about Patera? Or is this the St. Louis book? I've had a good flick through the early chapters of The 50 and can't see any bit on him. Caught one incidental mention on p. 21 and another on p. 60 when he refers to him as a "known national star" (among others) during his discussion of Lawler. Matysik has this to say about Ted ranked at #39, pp. 178-9: Also we should be careful of overstating the influence of St. Louis in 1983. Tim Hornbaker has this in his NWA book (pp. 352-3): The point is that these are strong indications that by 1980 Muchnick didn't have much real power and by mid-83 what influence he did have had dissipated. I wonder if the pull of St. Louis is a bit overplayed in this thread. Giegel was running St. Louis. This fact probably hurts both DiBiase and Patera, but I think it's worth not getting carried away with the idea of St. Louis as the centre of the NWA. From the account Hornbaker gives the powerbrokering was between Giegel, Crockett and Barnett. And from what Matysik says, we can infer that by 1980 things were far from running how Muchnik would have wanted.

That tends to explain why you see things differently than we do. :/ I also asked you this: Well? Also, are you arguing for him as NWA champ based on his WWF work? Would the NWA board have been taking notes on his performances in New York? (not a troll, serious question)

I've already spelled out what I believe it was. I have no clue what you believe it was and there could be a huge difference here since you were citing Iron Sheik's one month title win in the WWF as a historical parallel to Ivan Kollof theoretically winning the NWA Title and coming into the biggest show in Crockett history up to that point as the champ to pass the torch to Flair. I don't even mean that as a troll. Even when I agree with you (which is probably more often than not actually) we rarely share assumptions and I don't think we view anything through the same prism I don't view everything through an 80s WWF prism. It may come across that way, but it's not true. There is about 100 hours of audio of me discussing NWA during which it wouldn't be accurate to say that I view things through that prism. The Sheik analogy was unfortunate, but my point with it was that Ivan being NWA champ at that time would have had to be that sort of scenario. In the event that Race doesn't exist or is out of the game, Starrcade 83 can't go down exactly the same way. This thread has established a like-for-like replacement for Race doesn't exist. My scenario had the NWA board scrambling for ideas. We've established that the Ivan option isn't a good one. Let's not beat a dead horse. My Ivan scenario doesn't reveal in microcosm my profound misunderstanding of the wrestling landscape in 1983. Or how I think it worked the same as WWF. It doesn't reveal anything. If you read my posts on it carefully, I pointed it out at the time that it would be a big change of direction. You saying that you have "no clue" what I believe NWA traveling champ style to be does seem to suggest that I could come up with something completely off-the-wall. I'm puzzled by that. I think it's the same as what everyone else does. It's not exactly an industry secret.

I don't doubt that he could do carry jobs or go 60 minutes. But he's a guy who did bearhugs and full nelsons who was touted for being a strongman his entire career. You've got to go back to Kiniski to find a parallel. Sure, it's possible. I just don't see Patera in the same mould as Race or Flair or Brisco or Dory or mid-70s Terry or even Tommy Rich. How much 1980 Patera have I seen? Very little. I have Brickhithouses's WWF 79-83 set and a project lined up later this year where I'll see a whole bunch of Patera. I have seen him in AWA though. Does he go through a transformation from 80 to his AWA days? Does he work a drastically different style? This isn't about stardom or whether he could have been champ, but simply pointing out that he wasn't exactly typical. Not like Ted would have been typical. I'm not even pushing Ted here, just that he was in that typical NWA champ mould and I don't think Patera was. EDIT: Do I really have to spell out a definition of NWA World champ working style?? Really? We don't just all implicitly know and accept what that is?

Was Dusty Rhodes an NWA champ style worker Did Dusty have a 2-year run? The question is not "could Patera have been champ", it's "could Patera have taken the Flair role in 1981". Could Dusty have? No is your simple answer. jdw says he might easily have worked the NWA champ style. There is the tacit admission there that he would have had to have change his style, which is the closest I'm going to get to any sort of concession here.

It's not about whether he was a good worker, Kirs, but whether he was an NWA-champ style of worker. What TYPE of worker was he? No one would doubt that Hansen or Lawler were great workers, but were they NWA-champ style workers? I don't think I'm making a very controversial point.