JerryvonKramer

88 - Crockett had an influx of new talent, but also lost some significant names too, most notable Arn and Tully. Starrcade was after the Turner buyout. I've gone with Summerslam 88 rather than Mania IV, because it was a more regular card and a fairer comparison. I will say though -- considering that DEPTH is the important thing here -- that at Mania IV they ran a 14-man tournament, a 20-man Battle Royal AND a tag title match. Summerslam 88 vs. Starrcade 88 #Main Event The Mega Powers (Hogan and Savage) vs. The Mega Bucks (Andre and DiBiase) Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger Another year on for Luger, but he can't compete with the WWF lineup here for work or star power. Simply outgunned. 1-0 WWF # Secondary Title Ultimate Warrior vs. Honky Tonk Man Barry Windham vs. Bam Bam Bigelow Hard to know which way to call this. HTM was on the end of quite an effective run as IC champ, Bigelow was having a cup of coffee. Warrior was a rising star and crazy over. If you were a booker in 1988, which match would you pick for your card? It's a tough one. Because I dislike Warrior that much though, I'm going 1-1 -- it probably should be 2-0 though. #Semi-main Jake Roberts vs. Hercules (??!) Rick Steiner vs. Mike Rotunda Summerslam 88 was an exceptionally shitty card looking at it. There is no obvious semi-main. Herc was still being reasonably pushed around this time and Roberts was a major star by this point. However, Steiner vs. Rotunda was a hot feud and given a lot of screen time. Also, Steiner was very over. Also, if you were a booker and the choice was between Roberts and Herc or Steiner and Rotunda, I think you'd probably go with the latter. 2-1 JCP. # Tag Titles Demolition vs. The Hart Foundation Sting and Dusty vs. The Road Warriors Hmmm, one way of thinking says JCP blow WWF away here. But Sting still wasn't really a top star, and Dusty was in terminal decline (and on his way out). The Road Warriors were still big stars. But then I wonder how big Demolition were. Work-wise, you'd probably give it to Demolition, Bret and Jim Neidhart. Very close call, but I'm saying WWF by a squeak -- too early for Sting, too late for Dusty. 2-2. #Mid Card The British Bulldogs vs. The Fabulous Rougeaus Dino Bravo vs. Don Muraco Kevin Sullivan and Steve Williams defeated The Fantastics (Bobby Fulton and Tommy Rogers) The Midnight Express (Bobby Eaton and Stan Lane) (with Jim Cornette) defeated The Original Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey and Randy Rose) On the face of it this looks like JCP blow WWF away. But let's look closer: Dino Bravo was a big star in Canada. Don Muraco was past it by this point. The Bulldogs were winding down. The Rougeaus were a very mid-card team by this point. It's not a strong mid-card for WWF. Ok, this one has possibly backfired on me, JCP blow WWF away here. 3-2 JCP. #Lower Card Rick Rude vs. JYD Bad News Brown vs. Ken Patera The Powers of Pain vs. The Bolsheviks Bigboss Man vs. Koko B. Ware The Russian Assassins vs. vs. JYD and Ivan Koloff Heh, look at that JYD jobbing in both places. Again, WWF put on 3 more matches than JCP signalling a deeper roster. The Russian Assassins were essentially jobbers (although they won here, infuriatingly!), so this is an easy WWF win. Rude was on the up here. Ol' pasty legs Patera makes an appearance, he was a big star in his time. Warlord and Barbarian had recently jumped from Crockett. Bossman had jumped from Crockett. Koko Ware was slipping into JTTS mode already. 3-3. Conclusion: Ok, Summerslam 88 is not a good card on paper and Starrcade 88 is a really good one, but even then WWF were putting on three more matches and had a reasonable selection of talent up and down the card. There is no one as jobberish as The Russian Assassins getting wins on PPV. I will stop the demonstration here. The point is made. That is never truer than it is with Summerslam 88 that's for sure. EDIT: tomk - having gone through 86, 87 and 88 in that way, I think my point stands about JCP having strong mains and semi-mains and weaker (thinner) midcards in terms of star power and talent. You can say WWF were wasteful in shoving so many big name guys into meaningless mid-card fodder matches but look at the cards head to head and see how many midcard matches "which would be main events anywhere in the country" the WWF had compared to JCP. They had more guys who could jump into main event spots if required who might just be working a midcard match tonight. JCP only had the Horsemen, Dusty and the Road Warriors with RnR and MX to do a tag match which could be pushed as a semi-main. Beyond that there isn't a lot. Tell me that is not the case and why. Where is the JCP equivalent of, say, Paul Orndorff vs. Don Muraco? Those are two guys that could sell MSG out in 1986, and here they are just having a midcard match on this supercard? Where is it? That is my point.

Eaton was really good during the MX face run in late-88 / 89. He got to show off a lot of cool offense that you don't always see when MX are heel. I am looking forward to his 1990 stuff.

No I'm a big fan of the Library Congress recordings. There's tons of great stuff from the 20s and 30 and 40s. I listen to that stuff a lot. I spent a day wandering around New York once looking for a Mississippi Sheiks album (my wife wasn't very pleased, we were only there a week). I just haven't come across anyone I consider on that level. These aren't views I've just made up on the spot, they are views I've come to from years of obsessively being into things, seeking things out, and so on. It's not a lazy view. You have assumed it is a lazy view. As I said though, I am not interested in having this out. People can think what they want to. The conclusion I have come to, is that Dylan is without peer, and the Beatles are in the conversation with him because as far as I can see, they only made great albums. There are a handful of other bands with shorter runs -- Talking Heads, The Smiths, a few others -- who also only have great (or interesting) albums. I didn't say they are the be all and end all. I said they are the only ones in the GOAT conversation. Thinking Flair is the GOAT does not preclude you from watching all other wrestling. Why would it? I might go a year without listening to a Bob record. I've spent the last month mainly listening to Of Montreal. I've said my piece now.

I am really not keen to discuss this further. I love music from all ages, from all genres (except jazz, never jazz). My interest in these things goes deep, I really like Prince a hell of a lot. I like a lot of people. I like 30s Delta Blues. I like 80s synth. I like 60s psychedelic power pop. I like hip-hop. Hell, I even like The Residents. My nerdery for this -- as well as for film -- is probably as deep as Dylan Waco's nerdery for wrestling. The GOAT argument in music is not one I enjoy having. People like what they like. People have gaps. People have received opinions. So when all is said and done, I'd rather leave it. The way I see it, Dylan is an artist approaching Shakespeare levels and he will be remembered as such. They don't come along very often. That's my view, I'm not interested in getting people who don't see it that way to see it that way -- I'm not a preacher, I don't want to convert anyone. For someone who thinks that of Dylan, having a conversation with someone who doesn't like Dylan is probably the worst thing in the world. I can't be bothered with it. If you want to think he never recorded a great album after 69, or after 76, or even ever. So be it. If you want to think Eric B. and Rakim are The GOAT. So be it. I do not want to argue the case one way or the other.

87 - people had started to walk out on Crockett at this stage, while Vince was grabbing anyone he could of any name value. I don't see this being close. Wrestlemania III vs. Starrcade 87 #Main event Hulk Hogan vs. Andre Ric Flair vs. Ron Garvin If you want to go on workrate alone it's obvious who is winning, but the combined star power of Hulk and Andre cannot be fucked with here. 1-0 WWF # Secondary Title Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage Dusty Rhodes vs. Lex Luger You've got to give this to WWF, not because of the match, but because Luger was not yet a big star in 1987 and Savage was arguably as big as Dusty if not bigger by that point. Work-wise it's a no contest. 2-0 WWF # Semi-Main Roddy Piper vs. Adrian Adonis Rock n Roll Express vs. Midnight Express I think Piper vs. Adonis was probably the #3 match at Mania III, and I've given the big tag scaffold match the nod over Nikita vs. Taylor. Adonis was dropping off work-wise by this point and although Piper was a big star ... 2-1 WWF # Tag Titles The British Bulldogs and Tito Santana vs. The Hart Foundation and Danny Davis Arn and Tully vs. The Road Warriors The tag belts were not defended at Mania III, so I've gone with the closest thing to that on the card. Road Warriors were bigger stars than any of the teams for WWF and Arn and Tully were better workers so 2-2. # Mid Card Iron Sheik and Nikolai Volkoff vs. The Killer Bees The Dream Team vs. The Rougeau Brothers Harley Race vs. JYD Nikita Koloff vs. Terry Taylor Steve William vs. Barry Windham First of all, there are 10 guys here for WWF, and just 4 for JCP. Former NWA champ Harley Race vs. former Mid-South lynchpin JYD is a "main event anywhere in the country", I don't know if I'd say that about either of the JCP matches in 1987. The tag matches are also quite stacked. Jim Brunzell was a star in AWA. Iron Sheik is a former champ. Greg Valentine was a star. Beefcake was on the up. The Rougeaus were decent workers. Comfortable 3-2 WWF. #Lower Card The Can-Am Connection (Martel and Zenk) vs. Bob Orton and Don Muraco Billy Jack Haynes vs. Hercules Hillbilly Jim, The Haiti Kid and Little Beaver vs. King Kong Bundy, Little Tokyo and Lord Littlebrook Butch Reed vs. Koko B. Ware Honkytonk Man vs. Jake Roberts Sting, Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin (with Precious) vs. Eddie Gilbert, Rick Steiner and Larry Zbyszko So Mania had 4 more matches than Starrcade in 87, another rather strong indicator that they had much greater depth than JCP. Let's look at this lower card. Recent AWA champ Rick Martel goes up against recent main event star and MSG demi-god Don Muraco in a tag match that also features decent worker Bob Orton ... and the Zeeman. Honkytonk Man and Jake Roberts were both on the up and up. Butch Reed was a fairly big territorial star. King Kong Bundy had mainevented last year's Mania. What have JCP got in their 6-man tag? Sting was greener than grass in 87. Michael Hayes was a reasonably big star in the territories. Zybysko, I guess had some name power. Steiner was young. Gilbert not such a big name in Crockett land. Virtually impossible to give it JCP's way, 4-2 WWF. Conclusion: By this stage, the obviousness of what I am saying is plainer than a smack in the face, no one can look at those two cards and say JCP had a deeper or more stacked roster. WWF put on 4 more matches too. Shall we look at 88 or is there no point?

Are you calling Prince consistent now? lol We must stop this now. PM me if you must, but this is going too far. We should stick to wrestling.

Because BIG doesn't have the ammo to go up against Dylan that's why. The best you can hope for in hip-hop, is to take the entire output of the Wu-Tang Clan and put that against Dylan, and even then it's not really a conversation. I am the wrong person to try to argue this with since I'm one of the biggest hip-hop fans going. There is no Dylan of hip-hop yet. There may be in time. I will not discuss music anymore because I believe it's against the rules to go this off topic. EDIT: Robert Johnson recorded 31 songs, total. He's not in contention.

86 - this is Crockett's best shot at having the deeper roster. A lot of the talent they would go on to lose were still there, and Vince hadn't gone into 5th gear on his epic talent poaching yet. This should be the closest contest. Remember roster DEPTH is what is being measured here, not match quality. "Depth" is going to be defined as a messy combination of talent and star power. Starrcade 86 vs. Wrestlemania 2 # Main event Hulk Hogan vs. King Kong Bundy Ric Flair vs. Nikita Koloff Obviously Hogan is Hogan, but then Flair is Flair. In 86, I wonder if Koloff is a bigger star relatively speaking than Bundy, it's possible. Call it a draw? That is overlooking a hell of a lot to be generous to JCP. # Semi-Main Roddy Piper vs. Mr. T The Road Warriors vs. The Midnight Express This says as much about booking philosophy and even company philosophy as it does about anything else. I'd give this one JCP's way because we are measuring depth, obviously Piper vs. Mr. T is going to sell you more tickets in 1986 than most matches. # Secondary title match Randy Savage vs George the Animal Steele Tully Blanchard vs. Dusty Rhodes If you were a booker in 1986, and you had a draft pick out of these four guys, you'd probably want Savage, but this is a fairly easy win for JCP. Dusty and Tully were both bigger stars and better workers than Steele. 2-0 JCP # Tag title match The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team Rock 'n' Roll Express vs. Arn and Ole Anderson Little question this is going JCP's way. 3-0. #Midcard Paul Orndorff vs. Don Muraco Battle Royale: Andre, Bret Hart, Jimbo Covert (NFL player – Chicago Bears), Pedro Morales, Tony Atlas, Ted Arcidi, Harvey Martin (Former NFL player – Dallas Cowboys), Danny Spivey, Hillbilly Jim, King Tonga, The Iron Sheik, Ernie Holmes (Former NFL player – Pittsburgh Steelers), B. Brian Blair, Jim Brunzell, Big John Studd, Bill Fralic (NFL player – Atlanta Falcons), Jim Neidhart, Russ Francis (NFL player – San Francisco 49ers), Bruno Sammartino, and William "Refrigerator" Perry (NFL player – Chicago Bears). Ricky Steamboat vs. Hercules Hernandez Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. Junkyard Dog and Tito Santana Wahoo McDaniel vs. Rick Rude Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones Brad Armstrong vs. Jimmy Garvin Big Bubba vs. Ron Garvin This is not really close, you've got a Battle Royale featuring Andre and some other signicant people I've bolded there, PLUS Steamboat, PLUS the Funks, JYD who was a major draw, Tito Santana who was still a draw and still good, AND Muraco vs. Orndorff. This is what I've been trying to show, DEPTH IN THE UNDERCARD. Rick Rude was not a big star in 1986 and I'm not sure he was good. Valiant vs. Jones might have been bringing the house down in Greensboro but Valiant wasn't Andre, and Paul Jones was at best a regional star, and a manager by that point to boot. Big Bubba was green as heel in 86, putting Armstrong vs. Jimmy Garvin in this bracket was a stretch. # Lower card Jake Roberts vs. George Wells The Fabulous Moolah © vs. Velvet McIntyre Corporal Kirchner vs. Nikolai Volkoff Adrian Adonis vs. Uncle Elmer Tim Horner and Nelson Royal vs. Don and Rocky Kernodle Hector Guerrero and Baron Von Raschke vs Shaska Whatley and The Barbarian The Russians (Krusher Khruschev and Ivan Koloff) vs. The Kansas Jayhawks (Bobby Jaggers and Dutch Mantel) Sam Houston vs. Bill Dundee So both companies are resorting to putting a jobber or two on the card. I don't think Bill Dundee was on the JCP roster at this stage and this was probably a one shot for the big show, the same with some of the other Memphis guys. Nikolai Volkoff had main evented shows vs. Hogan that year. Adrian Adonis was still a good worker. Jake was gathering steam. Those are the three names that stand out. The JCP lower card is filled with guys on their way out (the Kernodles) or desperately hanging on (Baron). Ron Garvin is the only major star there (Dundee was hardly a star in the eyes of the casual JCP fan). Conclusion: If you look at the top of the card, JCP's matches look tastier and more stacked with talent and star power -- overlooking the obvious Hogan factor here (and Mr. T). But once you go beyond that as I've been stressing, WWF's roster is way way way deeper. To the extent that they have a 20-man battle royal on the show. To the extent that Adrian Adonis and Jake Roberts are in nothing lower card matches. Next, 1987 ...

What you're going to put Notorious BIG against Dylan? How about Prodigy? How about DJ Shadow? Once another genre produces a Dylan, maybe then they'll get brought up in GOAT conversations. It hasn't happened yet. It will. There just aren't any other people with 9-10+ bona-fide ***** albums. That is why it is just Beatles and Dylan. Obviously classical music is another ball game. And for other genres, I did mention Miles Davis as someone you might want to put forward ... (I have no truck with jazz myself, just don't get it) To bring this back to wrestling ... there's nothing to say that GOAT candidates must come from a certain style or a certain genre. The guys who are in the frame are in the frame because they have careers that put them in the frame and they just so happen to come from a particular promotion at a particular time.

I would go as far as to say that you can pick any year, 86, 87, 88, 89 or 90 and WWF has a deeper roster. JCP might have deeper CARDS on their house shows, but WWF had the deeper roster. It is painfully obvious. They bought the best talent from all around the country and had a roster of 60 wrestlers deep at any one point. JCP had a roster of about 30 guys at any one point, of which only really 20 or so were "names", and I'm including guys like Ivan Koloff and Jimmy Valiant in that. I don't see how the argument is being made, I really don't. Do you really want me to waste an entire hour of my life breaking down Mania, Summerslam and Starrcade cards to demonstrate this? I will go toe-to-toe with you and jdw on this point all week long if you want. Arn and Tully were maineventers for JCP, they were midcard in WWF. Road Warriors were main eventers in JCP, they were upper midcard at best in WWF. Ronnie Garvin was a world champ for JCP, he was a jobber in WWF. Barry Windham was a major star for JCP, he was an also ran in WWF Dusty Rhodes was the top babyface for JCP, he was a comedy act in WWF. Ricky Steamboat was a mainevneter for JCP, he was at IC level in WWF. How long do you want to keep going? This isn't to try to run JCP down or to big up WWF, but you've got to face facts. JCP couldn't have run a credible Royal Rumble because they didn't have 30 named stars, this becomes painfully obvious on shows like The Crockett Cup or any of the Battle Bowls. Once you are beyond the Horsemen, the big name tag teams and Dusty, you're quickly into Paul Jones's army and after that you're left with the Itallian Stallions of this world. My argument is about ROSTER DEPTH, not card construction. It doesn't matter how Vince booked LA, the fact is he had a roster 60 deep, and on that roster were guys who would main event JCP shows buried in the midcard. I love NWA as much as anyone, but I don't see where this is coming from. Read the Observers from 1986 onwards and it's Meltzer week after week after week saying that JCP need new talent, that the roster is tired and getting stale, that new top babyfaces and heels are needed.

Is it possible to have a great match in the current Wrestlemania setting? It may be the only WWE show I watch every year and I have hated pretty much everything year-on-year since Wrestlemania 25. Taker vs. HBK made me feel physically sick, and I went online to find the internet raving about it.

About 8 years ago, this is what I wrote about that match: I think it is easy to forget the impact that genuine emotion has on what you think of a match. When we get to those shows, I will be very interested to see what I make of them now. I was very high on all the pimped Steiners matches including the one where the beat up the poor Japanese youngster.

This is Pro Wrestling Only so I have nothing else to say on music. Acting wise, I think there are probably 10-15 more people in the discussion with Pacino and De Niro. I will not get drawn on that beyond saying that either though.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I don't think there's any argument at all to put Charles, Brown, Crosby or Armstrong (or indeed Sinatra) in the same conversation as Dylan or the Beatles. I can see real jazz fans making an argument for Miles Davis, but then you're getting into a different ballpark. I have listened to every album by all of the people named there and they are not at Dylan levels peak or otherwise. Beatles are a rare case of only being peak.

Some of those were pretty good! The Catwalk - Model Rick Martel invites various faces to strut their stuff and critiques both their gait and clothing, eventually feuds with The Taylor Made Man. Thesz's Press - chat show segment based in a laundry with one of those big presses used for ironing. In addition, Thesz "presses" his interviewees for answers in a hard-hitting, no-nonsense style. Hammer-Time - Greg Valentine presents an early-90s rap themed chat show segment, featuring High Energy as backup dancers, a common thread would be Koko ribbing Owen about not being able to dance. Also, various guests bring up Wrestlemania 5 when the debut of "Hunka Hunka Honky Love" was overshadowed by Run DMC.

With all the talk of Funk's Grill, The King's Court and A Flair for the Gold, I was thinking of all the possible talkshow segments that never were. And what would they be called?

You just broke SD Jones's heart.

Exactly Pete, listen to the crowd during that match, measure the excitement levels. I won't pretend that I didn't mark out like a little girl myself when I first watched that match.

Two matches which immediately spring to mind are the Terry Funk vs. Stan Hansen match from the All Japan set, what was that? Barely 10 minutes? And the Ted DiBiase vs. Jim Duggan multiple gimmicks on a pole in tuxedos match which I believe is actually under 10 minutes (if it isn't, it feels like it), and finished #1 on the Mid-South set. One more match I'll point to is Arn and Ole vs. The Rock n Roll Express from Starrcade 86. It's all of 13 minutes but is basically perfect. The undercard of Clash 1 also has two REALLY good short matches on it: Midnight Express vs. The Fantastics and Arn and Tully vs. Windham and Luger. If either of them break 10 minutes, it's not by much.

Except "X is untenable" isn't an opinion and cannot possibly be stated as such. An argument is either tenable or not. Your opinion has about as much weight on the issue as it does on whether or not the sun will rise in the east and set in the west. Unless, of course, you're a truth relativist, in which case your opinion matters a great deal on those things. But that's an extreme position, and there's no evidence that Matt D holds it. You can't just assume that everyone who disagrees with you does so because of obscure and bizarre schools of philosophy. Sometimes, people who agree with you that objective reality exists will still disagree with what 80's tag teams were good. That's your opinion.

Because it was exceptionally exciting?

The music analogy is quite right. Dylan and Beatles, no one else really in the conversation, but then for the next tier of greatness down there are lots of people: David Bowie, The Smiths, Lou Reed, Elvis, Johnny Cash ... I mean there are shitloads vying for the 3-15 spot. In wrestling, I've pretty much got Flair as a clear frontrunner with Funk, Jumbo and possibly Lawler and possibly Stan Hansen in the conversation. I'm open to hearing anecdotal cases from the 60s and 70s where we don't have lots of footage.

Is that your finisher? "The Texan Rib"

I forgot to mention that going in my feeling was 1. Flair, 2. Lawler, 3. Funk After listening to this show I would probably go 1. Flair, 2. Funk, 3. Lawler. That isn't a knock on Will, but Dylan got over very effectively the things that are unique to Funk. I did wonder if Funk has some rather unfair advantages though, like for example the fact he worked short stints, so him turning up is going to feel like an occasion. Like, for example, the fact that he never had a company's fortunes riding on him (unlike either of the other two). Re: Flair, I think there was a moment when you all agreed that sometimes when a mystery guest / opponent is Funk or Lawler people don't always want to see them, and that people always want to see Flair. No one mentioned it, but there's one thing that is seldom brought up. Fans in the WWF had Hogan from 84 to 93. And they were fed up of him. Fans in the NWA / WCW had Flair from the late 70s to 1991. If you were a Mid-Atlantic fan you could legitimately have had him on your screen since 1974 and from 76 onwards on top of the card. And in 1991 they chanted "WE WANT FLAIR". Who was chanting "We Want Hogan" in 93? Does Lawler have anything to put against that?