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JerryvonKramer

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  1. JerryvonKramer
    This. EDIT: And that's not me tapping out, it's me saying I've seen enough wrestling to know what Loss is saying is 100% true and very well thought out. I'll also mention that I love Bobby Eaton and think he was a great worker for all the reasons you mention; my point was that Corny helped to get him over and put him in a position where he would not be wasted. I don't believe that he would have had the success he did without a great manager like that -- as jdw says they were a great unit. But this is swings and roundabouts, I think we're on the same page. EDIT 2: I did also want to say that I know it can appear sometimes that I'm arguing that non-wrestling aspects are the draw too. I don't believe that. The in-ring element is the ONLY indispensable part. Promos aren't the be all and end all, for all the reasons you mention. Also, I have a tendency to overlook or temporarily forget some of the clusterfuck shit the WWF/E pulled after the Attitude Era. That "forced" quality is one of the reasons I stopped watching -- that, and the 15-minute HHH promos that go nowhere. By the time he's made his entrance, spat water everywhere, and then made material that would have been okay for a 1-minute insert promo last for an entire segment, I've had enough. I am absolutely with you that wrestling and the wrestlers are the draw, not the shit. My point was only ever that "the shit" can help and shouldn't be overlooked, that it's part of a bigger picture and we should look at that bigger picture if at all possible. My mindset as a fan is stuck in the 80s and pre-attitude era 90s. That's all I've watched for a long time now. "The shit" can also be a hindrance if the bookers get the wrong-headed idea that that is solely what people are tuning in for.
  2. JerryvonKramer
    People seem to be talking about the crowd as if they are in some way autonomous from the performers in the ring, they aren't. They are PRIMED by the guys in the ring beforehand through promos, angles, vignettes and so on. The massive reactions The Rock used to get during matches are more to do with his amazing promo skills than they way he drops an elbow. Bobby Eaton is only going to get booed or cheered because of stuff that Jim Cornette has said and done. When it comes to crowd reactions, work is only one part of the picture, and I'd warrant less of a part than the other elements (although a GREAT match can turn a lethargic crowd around, this happens, for example, during Flair vs. Garvin at Starrcade 87 -- the crowd are way down Garvin at the start but the match is so good, they pop pretty well for both him and Flair in the final third). I fundamentally disagree with the idea that you can separate these elements out -- the work, the crowd, the promo skills and so on. They are all part of the picture working towards a certain end, you can't take pieces away. And just because we can't speak Japanese, does not mean those elements aren't there in Japan, because they are there. You only need to watch a single Riki Choshu match to tell you that. I'm not saying that we always need to talk about total package, I'm just saying that I think it is naive and even foolish to discount the impact non-wrestling elements have on how any given match is received. The crowd experiences a match as a punctuation point in a wider narrative. Context is king. One reason that so many internet fans default to workrate is because of convention, they've been conditioned to think in a certain way through decades of smarkdom. Another reason is because it's much easier just to watch a single match than months of build. But look how many people picked the Memphis set as their favourite 80s set BECAUSE of the extras. Contrast the experience of watching matches on the Yearbooks with the experience of watching random matches on youtube. There is no comparison.
  3. JerryvonKramer
    Right, I don't think this was made entirely clear by Will's opening post in that thread. So what's happening in the posts I quoted up top there, is that Crossface and Jingus are having a different conversation from the one Nintendologic is having. Ok, fine. Do you think though, Loss, that these things are entirely divisible? They have a big impact on each other. For example, a very effective promo can do a lot of work in prepping a crowd to behave in a certain way. Everyone agrees, I think, that a dead crowd hurts a match. A particular crowd will also affect the way a guy will work a match -- a good worker will REACT to the crowd, the BEST workers will be good enough to control it. I'll give you an example of when a crowd hurt someone's performance: The Fantastics vs. Steve Williams and Kevin Sullivan from Starrcade 88. In that match, the crowd were booing The Fantastics pretty much the whole way through and it was easily the worst performance by Bobby Fulton that we'd seen and even Rogers wasn't as good as he usually was. The crowd being so down on them that night surely contributed. If you accept that the premise that the crowd is always a factor in how we judge matches, then it follows that the factors that dictate the crowd are ALSO factors we need to take into account. Jumbo vs. Tenryu is half the match if no one in the crowd understands the story and the history. Take that same match and put them in front of a crowd at the Royal Albert Hall who don't know who either guy is. Are you still going to say that the things outside of the ring don't matter? So for all of those reasons, Loss, I don't subscribe to the dualistic thought that mic work and in-ring work are always two different conversations and that one is not relevant to the other. It's a dialectical relationship. Let me put this another way: take Jim Cornette out of the Midnight Express. What are we left with?
  4. JerryvonKramer
    I am thinking mainly of the Bret vs. Flair "Who is better" thread. It seems to me that when answering that question, there are people who think that mic work is about as important as a guy's real-life love life. I think that position is untenable. I accept that the "GOAT in-ring worker" conversation is only going to look at in-ring work.
  5. JerryvonKramer
    Sure, but as long as we're talking about shit that has nothing to do with in-ring ability, Bret has fewer failed marriages. Is it more important than their number of successful marriages? If not why? If so, why? Everyone knows that it's my cast iron belief that the non-in-ring aspects of a particular worker are as important as their matches. We've had this argument before, but I'd like to have it out again. In my world, being involved in a feud that had a fantastic build with great promos is almost worth as much as being involved in a great match. For example, when thinking about DiBiase's career I'd give that DiBiase-Jake feud the same weighting as I'd give the DiBiase-Duggan multi-gimmick match (by itself). The fact that the latter ALSO had a great feud going into it puts it over the top, the former didn't have a stellar blow off so that puts a cap on its overall greatness, but I don't discount that chapter in either Jake's career or DiBiase's career because of it. I understand there are people on this board -- like SLL, like Nintendologic and a whole bunch of others -- who de facto dismiss such episodes. What is the reason for doing this? A lot of blow offs don't make sense without the surrounding material, or at least they are strongly enhanced by it. My argument has always been that promos, angles, skits and so on are part of the GRAMMAR of pro-wrestling. Yes, the match is always important, of course it is, that's where everything is leading to but it's only one part of a bigger picture. It's like taking a book and saying that we're only going to judge it on the final few chapters, or judging a film by only the ending. This is complicated by the fact that there ARE matches without builds. And, sometimes, there are angles and things that don't lead to matches. But the general point remains: why discard the first 3/4 of something you are looking at? Here is another point: in the actual industry of pro-wrestling, great talkers are likely to have longer careers than guys who can work but not talk. When PROMOTERS are assessing a particular worker, they take their mic work into account. They take a whole host of others things too: their look, their schtik, their ability to connect with the crowd. But so-called 'smart' fans are so smart they think they just ignore that. What is the rationale for ignoring that? I know that this is a particular axe that I keep on grinding, but I strongly believe that the view that considers only in-ring ability and "great matches" is poorer than the one that takes promos or total package into account. In this thread I want to chart where posters of this forum lie on this issue AND WHY. Ideally, by the end of it I will have a table of people with their various positions. I have also made a poll so we can see what the majority and minority views are on this. I suspect I'm in the minority but we'll see.
  6. JerryvonKramer
    Can't wait for this.
  7. JerryvonKramer
    Jarrett's video seemed lke it came from a different time and place. What was Bock doing there? One thing is clear: the man can do an arm drag.
  8. JerryvonKramer
    Kerry feels like a big guy in a small town here. Like the most popular guy from school but 30 still stuck in the moment when he's 18. Pringle says it's ok for him to call him Marc. The girls in the crowd don't care if he's off his head and not making much sense. Strange environment for anyone.
  9. JerryvonKramer
    There's no way this could be a babyface promo with all the trash talking about Texas and Dallas ("the dump of the world"). Good promo though.
  10. JerryvonKramer
    Austin seems to improved on the mic a lot since his last appearance a month ago. Terence Garvin really needs to fuck off now, I hate him. Was Percy Pringle also the ref here? Ha ha Chris Adams remains the blandest babyface I've ever seen.
  11. JerryvonKramer
    Something bizarre happened during Flair's promo ... he started to remind me of Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka, in particular during this: The intonation, the rythmn, the tone are all practically identical.
  12. JerryvonKramer
    shoe, I am unhappy with this being compared to the awesome Starrcade 88 theme. I like that the version of rap they used in 1990 had that 1983-4 Run DMC sound -- wrestling has to be at least 6 years out of date. This is rap in a world where Eric B and Rakim, Public Enemy, N.W.A., and Ice Cube's solo stuff never happened.
  13. JerryvonKramer
    Bit harsh on Tama to have him as "The Ugly". I like Ron Simmons talking. "You're about as imposing as a pelican" - what??! This Tuesday in Texas!
  14. JerryvonKramer
    Cornette's "big brown ... *glances at the breasts* ... eyes" was quite funny. He looks like such a gimpy geek standing next to Woman in the leather. His shocked expression at the end was also quite funny. I don't think they are necessarily going for a gay angle with him, but that he's definitely not one of the cool kids -- which when he's standing next to Flair is more than obvious. Woman and Flair both play their parts well, but I agree with the general sentiment that it needs to move on now.
  15. JerryvonKramer
    I think Lawler breaks a few of the cardinal rules here: his impression of Kerry and the steroid stuff is too close to the bone. They always say you shouldn't rip your opponent with stuff that is actually true because some fans might pick up and run with it. Flair for example never runs his opponent down in such a destructive way, he'll always somehow put them over as he's talking about how great he is etc. Lawler's stuff is very entertaining but I'm not sure if it isn't cheating in a way. Jarrett's promo is shitty and boring. Kerry looks like he doesn't know what planet he's on. Lawler's fired up promo after that is great (privosos about breaking the rules granted). Kerry's promo is also pretty good.
  16. JerryvonKramer
    The sequencing of this after the Hogan - Warrior madness couldn't be better. "Do you know what this is Dave? I understand that you stayed up all night once studying for a urine test, is that true?" Ha ha ha
  17. JerryvonKramer
    Was it just me or was Hogan lisping quite a lot here? Warrior's promo is absolutely mental as well as legendary. HOOOAAAAAAAAK HOGAN!
  18. JerryvonKramer
    First time for me as well. I like that there are three storylines going on in this match: 1. DiBiase bailing on the DDT attempts. 2. Virgil being scared of the snake and Ted getting pissed off at him not complying with his orders (further pre-empting on that slow slow build angle) 3. The intrigue with Slick being outside. In the Brother Love segment that follows it is TERRIFIC that you can see Bossman's face turn and his entire expression change as DiBiase is boasting about buying his services. Then a great little moment as DiBiase interrogates Slick. Bossman and DiBiase nose-to-nose during this exceptionally well executed face turn. SLL, you can watch Citzen Kane all day long brother, this shit is excellent.
  19. JerryvonKramer
    Travis is very fishy in some of the early going. Some of his movements are kind of goose-like. Terence Garvin can fuck off already. This match is like watching an old Warner Bros cartoon. Didn't really go anywhere did it. Too much Terence for me, hate that guy.
  20. JerryvonKramer
    Cornette and Ross bantering about the hotline was awesome. Love that combo on commentary. Flair's hair is quite long here, think he might need to get it cut. Cornette points out that even though it looks like the Z-Man is on top in the early going that Flair is actually "suckering him", letting him wear himself out. An obvious insight in some ways, but one that at least 50% of this forum doesn't seem to grasp. Cornette is putting over this idea that he's lulling Zenk into a false sense of security. Flair is a FACE at this point, so you can't say Corny is making excuses. LOVE the cocky slap by Flair and his look of being affronted that Zenk slapped him back. There's your semi-transition. He's pissed off now. Zenk's fighting back a bit too much still so he bails to break the momentum. Lures him outside but still gets the worst of it. Nick Patrick is taking this "fingers under the shoulder" business a bit far. I think most of us would agree that this is the best Zenk could be. Flair is almost like a lens through which you can see the full potential of someone. Thought Flair could have got more offense in during this one, which stops it being much better than "above average".
  21. JerryvonKramer
    Liger's selling compared to the Owen match is night and day. A piledriver almost knocks him out. His selling is very good here. I like the mask kind of hanging there, as part of this bloody mess than Liger has become as Sano beats the living shit of him. Liger's flashy backbreaker looks very cool. Perfectplex! German! Everything Sano has done on offense has been good including the matwork. Massive clothesline and Liger looks like he's dead. Sano is busting out every type of suplex in the book here, I don't know the names of some of them. Crowd is very hot. Liger's hope spots are timed to perfection. Powerbomb! Is that it? NO. Tombstone. Shooting star press! Is that it? YES! Pretty fucking awesome match. Post-match Liger throws a hissy fit because Sano ripped his mask off. Match of the month.
  22. JerryvonKramer
    Dave Meltzer's "best worker in the world" from 1988 takes on Jushin Liger. Owen looks kinda pudgy to me, Liger does too actually. Crowd are really sitting on their hands here. At times this resembles open-floor gymnastics rather than wrestling. Matwork was listless and bored me to tears. Suplex! Backbreaker and a nice one! Gutwrench suplex. Chinlock. Nice execution on the moves, but there's no real focus here from Owen. Sharpshooter looks way too close to the ropes. Why doesn't Liger grab for them? Owen's dragged him to the centre now, but Liger should have made an effort to get to the ropes. He just lets the hold go anyway. Liger's flippy flippy splashes look both silly and sloppy. Nice German suplex! Nice belly-to-belly. Nice butterfly suplex! Owen has quite a lot of different stuff in his offensive locker. Tombstone! Liger has taken a shit ton of stuff now, why isn't he dead? Why's he just getting up from 4 high impact moves like that as if nothing had happened? Superplex, powerbomb and it's over. Aspects of this match annoyed me: Liger's empty flashiness, Owen's unfocused matwork, Liger's lack of real selling. Owen looked really good delivering the bombs, but they were bombs in a vacuum -- no impact, no place in an overall story.
  23. JerryvonKramer
    Think this is a terrific angle and is something I'd point to when I say you have to look beyond just matches when assessing guys. I think both guys are phenomenal in the build. Jake in particular delivers some career-high promos. This wasn't one of them, but it was still pretty good.
  24. JerryvonKramer
    Got to give it do Big Dust, he rolled with this and went 110% on it. I'm surprised they never did an angle during the Goldust stuff years later where Dusty comes out loud and proud. If you just had the audio here, you'd assume that Dusty was the big black woman and Sapphire was the man.
  25. JerryvonKramer
    Ventura is always very entertaining when he smells some discord in the face camp, he's ready to stir shit up. I maintain Genius is the ultimate gay act, maybe not in terms of work, but in terms of being very funny. Very uneven teams here. Hogan and Warrior look like action figures. Ventura: "why don't they enter as a team ... two egomaniacs" - awesome analysis. Always thought that Mr. Perfect had springs in his feet. I hated Warrior so much as a kid, even more than Hogan. Time has done nothing to dampen those emotions, still hate him. Perfect BOUNCES off the turnbuckle. His bumping is absolutely insane, like they are wrestling on a bouncy castle. Genius taking notes is cool. Genius skipping and flouncing around the ring in front of Warrior is the sort of thing I love to see. Don't feel like Perfect did enough to Hogan before the perfectplex -- what had he done to him a few punches? It is clear that Warrior missed his cue, because there was no reason to stop the count and Hogan didn't look like he was kicking out. I like that Hogan tagged HIMSELF in for the legdrop. That is, if you think about it, telling a little story about him wanting the glory for himself. Warrior was going for his big splash. There was tension even before the clothesline. Warrior trying to help Hogan up by putting his hands all over his face was annoying, I'd have reacted like that too. Hate having hands on my face. Hogan is really good in that closing segment, his anger is real. Hated everything Warrior did here.
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