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Everything posted by JerryvonKramer
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Ted DiBiase: brawler or technician
JerryvonKramer replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in The Microscope
double post -
Where the Big Boys Play #28 – Clash of the Champions 3 Chad and Parv review Clash of the Champions 3: Fall Brawl. In this show: some more listener comments aka the Lyle Alzado update, week-by-week Wrestling Observer updates leading up to the Turner deal and Arn and Tully’s departure including Steve Williams and a flight to Tokyo, Summerslam 88: rated 15 in the UK, the oddly non-standard format of the Clash shows, who is awarding Tommy Young “referee of the year” 6 times?, some thoughts on Mike Rotunda, Jim Ross’s chronic overselling on commentary and thoughts on the Ross-Caudle partnership, Parv continues his intense dislike of Steve Williams from this period as Chad continues his equally intense dislike for Dusty’s awful run of form as a wrestler and booker in 1988, and Meltzer on why John Ayers was no Lyle Alzado. PS. Would someone with an active account on Wrestling Classics post a link to this show over there? I really don't want to join another forum and don't like shilling at all. But I enjoy reading that forum on occassion. Sometimes stumble on things there I had no idea about such as this. Anyway, would be grateful if someone could drop a link there as some of those guys are the natural audience for this show.
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100,001 ...
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Everybody who appeared in this segment from USWA 1990: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=17154 King Cobra looks like he's living rough, Chris Champion's hair is just disgusting. Austin looks and sounds like a scumbag. Lawler is coming in with the southern racist jibes, Dutch Mantell is scuzzy as hell. If you saw these guys walking down the street you'd probably cross the road before they got to you.
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The other little bit of context to consider there is that Shawn has had 10 years of the WWE ramming home the message of him as the best ever wrestler, Mr. Wrestlemania and all that crap. Bret hasn't had that (at least not to the same extent). I think that will affect the way people see him to some extent too, if only on a subliminal level. For example, it might pre-dispose certain fans (such as some of those that post here) to think more negatively of Shawn. Agreed, let's not talk about Shawn though.
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The thing I think that hurts Bret more than anything else is his association with the "first wave" of wrestling smarkdom back around 2000 or so. Bret back then, along with Shawn in some quarters, was the be all and end all. Anyone put in that artificially lofty position is going to suffer a comparative decline in reputation as received wisdom is questioned and the status quo is assessed and reassessed. Another way of putting this is that Bret has gone from being a lot of people's GOAT pick 10 years ago to "a guy who had a very good peak 94-97". And even then not everyone agrees.
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That would be something like 10 matches a day, every day, for 30 years or so. (at least with my limited math skills and brain power at this time of the day it comes out to that....) Wonder what the real figure is though. Can see it being as high as 10,000
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His 91 wasn't that bad was it? The match with Mr. Perfect at Summerslam. The matches with DiBiase (from the April SNME and 29/12 at MSG). Some of his IC title defences against Skinner and The Mountie. By no means a terrible year.
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What was business like for USWA in 1996?
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Terrible hang over. My predictions for 2013: running out of new guys to research, Dylan in desperation tries to get behind Outlaw Ron Bass for the HoF. Sting is finally inducted and the forum melts down.
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Who was the better promo?
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Here's a question: what percentage of wrestling fans total do you think have A. heard of Brody and B. ever seen a Brody match? He was not part of Vince's 80s boom-era WWF and there's no attitude-era guy who has endlessly pimped him (e.g. Foley pimping Snuka), so I'm willing to bet that it's less than 10% in both cases.
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What's this meant to mean? The average WWF fan doesn't give a fuck about Meltzer either and for them Jim Duggan was one of the most over faces of the 80s and 90s and the Ultimate Warrior is awesome. Who was voting in this poll? If it's the average Japanese fan then why should we care about what they think? We can't really take overness as a measure of someone's ability. If we did JYD and Jimmy Valiant would be seen as super workers. It's not like Japan doesn't have and never had its own version of kayfabe. Where did Dory Funk Jr. finish in that poll?
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It's not so much the fact he was killed but the fact that him being killed resulted in a massive eulogy from Meltzer which helped to generate a myth of this great and legendary worker. The timing is arguably key: 1988. That was a time when a guy like Meltzer had a sizable audience but also a time when footage was not readily available and the tape trading scene wasn't what it was in, say, the late 90s. Received wisdom, once it is acquired, dies very hard. Look at Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask. The idea that that is a great match is almost hard-wired into the minds of at least two generations of fans. If Brody doesn't die, he doesn't acquire this mythical status. He probably has a run in early 90s WCW or something and is remembered by lots of people as being a shitty brawling guy not too much better than Jim Duggan. If Brody does die, he doesn't get Meltzer working overtime to put him over as an all-time great. Point being: most fans don't go back and watch old 80s territories, or All Japan footage from 1981. Most fans will remember seeing one or two Brody matches they were ok with and be happy to go on rep. That rep is absolutely connected with his death and its timing.
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Where the Big Boys Play #27 - Great American Bash 88 Chad and Parv review Great American Bash 88: The Price for Freedom. In this show: Parv awkwardly reads some listener comments, the strange and wonderful world of the Pro Wrestling Only message boards, the financial performance of JCP in mid-88 and the Turner deal, Chad and Parv have a major disagreement over a match, thoughts on the infamous Tower of Doom match, Dusty Rhodes: 289lbs, and a sad farewell to Arn and Tully.
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Talking about this one: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=18072 ? That reminds me, I need to do the sticky post I promised I would.
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Doing some research for the podcast I was reading some WONs from mid-88 and stumbled on Meltzer's initial report and then obit for Brody. Quite a piece of work. I haven't read it all, but I think we shouldn't underestimate the impact it had on the smart fans of that period. Brody was essentially mythologized and almost deified by Meltzer. Adrian Adonis died around this time too (7/11/88 newsletter) and he didn't get a 7-page eulogy like Brody (8/1/88 newsletter). He was written of as an all-time great and at a time when most fans hadn't seen much more than what they grew up with, it's easy to see how an inflated view of Brody's worth might come about.
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Ted DiBiase: brawler or technician
JerryvonKramer replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in The Microscope
In All Japan he was mostly Stan Hansen's partner and worked as a fellow cowboy. Here's a match against Yatsu and Choshu from 12/12/85 (this is on the AJ set): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRAU94efjt0 We do get a chinlock from him. Snapmare. Fistdrop. Punches and forearms. Lots of selling of Choshu and Yatsu's offense including a GREAT spot where Choshu back suplexes him AS Yatsu bulldogs him (Choshu and Yatsu probably have the best double teaming of any team I've seen). Stomps. Backbreaker. Couple of double-team spots (double bigfoot, double elbow, double shoulderblock). Elbow drop. Puts head down for backdrop (gets kick to the face). So even in that setting working as Hansen junior, he's much the same as he is in MidSouth and WWF. There's nothing that I wrote in the summary post above that isn't true of him in that 30-minute match. Incidentally, I'd point to that match as evidence that DiBiase could hang with the best of them and not look completely out of place (I ranked the 8/31/85 match against Jumbo and Tenryu higher, 21 out of 150). Again though great worker =/= "technician",and think with Ted that somewhere down the line the two terms got confused. I just read a WON newsletter dated July 18th 1988 in which Meltzer says he rates Flair 3rd best worker in the world behind Owen Hart and DiBiase -- I still think that Ted doesn't quite get his due because of the mindset that looks only at ***** matches and not at what guys actually do in matches. -
Ted DiBiase: brawler or technician
JerryvonKramer replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in The Microscope
Hey, y'know Ted did that abdominal stretch too when he was in Money Inc. I think Ted worked slightly differently when he was tagging with Rotunda. They were booked as proper chicken-shit heels almost on a Honky Tonk Man level (as was Jerry Lawler in 93-4). Even against jobbers they were slightly desperate cheating scumbags. Look at this vs. two jobbers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88IpJzGtEjI Incidental note: he makes a fan shine IRS's shoes before the match, I didn't know he was still doing those sorts of things in 1993 and on RAW. DiBiase's offense in this match consists of: arm wrench, shoulder block, slamming the jobber's head on the mat. Second rope double axe handle. Choking on the top rope and then pulling the rope back so they fall backwards (twice), clothesline over the top rope. Stomps. Suplex. Powerslam. So by 93 there's virtually nothing "technical" about what he's doing. It gets to the stage where he's using dirty tactics even against a jobber. -
Ted DiBiase: brawler or technician
JerryvonKramer replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in The Microscope
I think Matt D has gone above and beyond here and it wouldn't be right to ask him to do more. I have seen probably more DiBiase jobber matches from the WWF than most. I'll tell you what they consist of: Punches, kicks and stomps to start. Interspersed with posing and taunting the crowd. Maybe an Irish whip, DiBiase sticks his head down for a backdrop, if it's a real jobber's jobber it hits, if it's a name jobber we get: Gorilla: "That was a cardinal mistake for a pro" Token jobber offense until either A. DiBiase has had enough and cuts it short with an eye gouge or something or B. Virgil interferes. Then we go into the finishing stretch: Suplex "and a beauty", million dollar fistdrop, piledriver, another fistdrop, maybe the powerslam or another high impact move (backbreaker, gutwrench, back suplex), million dollar dream and that's it. DiBiase wins in 3-4 minutes. $100 down the throat and laughing. That's all we get from 90% of DiBiase squash matches. I think we can all agree a few things: - That aggressive punches are always part of his gameplan -- he was trained by the Funks in Texas so this is not surprising, in some ways you can see both Terry and Dory in him. - That his core attributes as a worker are selling and execution - That he seldom does matwork whether in Mid South or WWF - That he doesn't go in much for counter wrestling as a heel and will resort to brawling tactics or cheating very quickly - That his basic gameplan for a match is not very "technical" - That his rep as a "technician" among his peers derives from his rep as a broomstick worker who can make a guy like Hercules look good - That his rep as a "technician" in kayfabe terms derives from his smoothness and grace in executing various moves such as the vertical suplex I'll leave people to draw their own conclusions from that. -
Ted DiBiase: brawler or technician
JerryvonKramer replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in The Microscope
Matt D - how about as a basis of comparison watching a random Dibiase match from Mid South from 85 and a random WWF match from 88? -
Ted DiBiase: brawler or technician
JerryvonKramer replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in The Microscope
Ronnie Garvin isn't a brawler now?