JerryvonKramer

Hogan and Warrior had a very unfair advantage in Wrestlefest -- their slam would eliminate people over the top rope. I always went DiBiase and he didn't have a slam so had to get a pin or submission. Great game.

I think the Demos thing is easy is explain ... Why are people still talking about Ultimate Warrior? Most over promotion of all time in that period and they were champs for most of it.

Didn't Landell have a late stint with WCW too?

Did he never have a good run in ECW? Seems like he was custom made for it.

Can't think of anyone else it affected quite so badly though. Iron Sheik liked the drugs too, as did Duggan, as did Kerry von Erich and any number of other guys from the 80s. All of them seem to have had better careeers than Landel. Wondering if "crap Flair" is just a loser gimmick that's going to limit any push you'll have.

Really what's the deal with this guy? Would it be fair to say that he never really made it? Like ever. I mean in 1985 managed by JJ Dillon he just seems like a loser, a very poor man's Flair. For most of the 1990s, what should have been his peak years, he was working the indies or brief jobber runs in WWF / WCW. Seems harsh to say it, but I can't think of someone with a more disappointing and unremarkable career who lasted so long. What's the story here?

Buchanen had a couple of decent tag runs didn't he? Did Richards really work during that period? He was more of a manager it seemed to me.

I really really hate it when I'm watching or listening to a shoot and I feel like I know more than the interviewer. I especially don't like it when they beeline to the WWF/E career or even worse make leaps to make connections with guys perceived as "important" like Stone Cold, Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. Just makes me feel that the interview is being done by someone without a fucking clue. If I had my way, every single shoot would be conducted by a panel of Loss, Dylan Waco and jdw.

Any views on Right to Censor?

I'd argue the Dungeon of Doom weren't really a mid-card stable but a main event one. Kevin Sullivan was weirdly high on the card for ages. Arguably number 2 or 3 heel at that time behind Flair (after Vader had left).

It's my classic example of WWF continuity booking in the 80s -- don't know when the last time DiBiase and Andre tagged was, guessing Summerslam 88, but they were still allied enough for DiBiase to help him out there. It's just a nice little Easter egg that the Mega Bucks are still sort of in league while the Mega Powers have exploded. But before today I'd never connected it to the actual Jake feud itself.

Actually, did the feud start AT Wrestlemania V itself when Ted tried to steal Damian during his match with Andre? That's a pretty long feud even for 89, what were they doing all of that time?

Speaking of DiBiase and getting back to the original topic, a question: was Million Dollar Man really the first evil rich guy gimmick? There are shades of it in the Horsemen, and shades of it in Cornette's character, but was there an out and out "baddie millionaire" before this?

The DiBiase / Jake feud didn't happen till 1990. DiBiase was kind of in post-Hogan/ Savage limbo in 1989 because the Mega Powers exploding angle effectively gave him nothing to do. His PPV matches that year are nothing ... meaningless Beefcake match at Mania, meaningless Snuka match at Summerslam. I'd argue he was still theoretical number 2 heel (behind Savage) in '89 as evidenced by being the final elimination at the Rumble (really, REALLY, booking now he would have gone over there for sure, but heels weren't allowed to win PPV main events in WWF at that time), and captain of the main event team vs. Hogan at Summerslam. Pretty sure DiBiase was Hogan's first real opponent after regaining the title as well. I'm just saying kayfabe-wise he was still "up there" as a top-tier guy.

I've somehow managed to miss a whole page of discussion here ... reading now.

People will talk about Paul Jones's army here for best, but honestly, what do people think of Right to Censor? They were pretty well booked and positioned as a mid-level stable and threat I thought. The distinct look with the shirt and tie really gave the group a cohesion that made it feel more than just a place to stick random midcarders. I also liked the thematic continuity of Val Venis and the Godfather both turning their back on sex-related gimmicks. And has Steven Richards ever been more effective in a heel role? As for worst, the Million Dollar Corporation from around 94-5 sort of time springs to mind. Just a terrible No Man's Land of mediocre talent and it didn't even make sense: the manager got most if not all of the heat, but there'd never be a real payoff because DiBiase couldn't take a bump. Did the Million Dollar Corporation do anything meaningful at all in it's near two-year run? Spirit Squad also have to be "down there". I expect to see Raven's Nest / Flock mentioned in both conversations.

Said it so many times now and I will continue to say it each and every single time it is brought up: Two massively stacked guys with unusual haircuts with fucking spikes on their shoulders. Two fat guys, one clearly middle aged, in KISS-tribute face paint, bondage gear and occasionally gimp masks. I've never ever ever ever understood the ideas that the Demos were Road Warriors rip offs. Powers of Pain, sure, they look exactly the same, but Demolition don't even slightly resemble them. Whoever made the Goldberg / Austin comparison was wrong, because those two look pretty similar. Last time this came up I got involved in a long dispute over my dislike of Demolition and their limited moveset, so I'll bail on it this time. Suffice it to say, my view hasn't changed -- but I do acknowledge they had a handful of good matches by WWF standards.

Oh wow, now I'm interested. Never knew Valentine was given an angle for his turn. Just always figured he disappeared for a while after Honky left and then came back as a sort of de facto face. Wow, amazes me sometimes that I can still find out new stuff about WWF in 91, even now.

Guys, just a little joke from me.

IRS over Greg Valentine at Summerslam 1991. Just stopped Greg's babyface push in its tracks.

I also think it comes down to the fact that people tend to have knee-jerk responses to things. It's one of a handful of things they've learned to say whenever wrestling is brought up. You see it in other things too. Take Bob Dylan, for example. There are LOADS of people whose learned response whenever Dylan is brought up to say "well, I think he wrote very good songs, but he couldn't sing". That's what you call a RECEIVED OPINION. It's a little deflection tool that prevents the person ever having to interrogate the issue further. It's lazy is what it is.