JerryvonKramer

Did you just hear that loud bang? That was the sound of Scott Keith's head exploding.

Reckon Baby Doll could have kicked the shit out of 90% of the roster in the mid-80s. That woman is massive.

I got killed for this before, but it's the matwork I can't stand. I gave almost every single match on the All Japan set that featured either Mil Mascaras or Dos Caras *

Dylan is like some sort of HHH-comparison machine. I was hoping he'd be like this when I made the thread.

So anyone willing to argue for Moolah over Cena then? I can see the argument for comparing them and it's convincing but the fact of the matter is -- for right or for wrong -- women's wrestling has consistently been treated as less of a deal than men's wrestling and the conventions within the worked sport has been to treat them separately. Take a guy like Savage - in his career he wrestled just about all the greatest male workers he could have and precisely two women -- Sherri and Sapphire. So how on earth can we realistically compare Savage's career with Sherri's? Yes, we can break it down and look at workrate, promo skills, charisma and so on, but everyone here at least is also very keen to look at "the body of work" and CONTEXT. Sherri was never ever ever in her career going to mainevent Wrestlemania. The comparison is just unfair. Whichever way you look at it, Sherri was never going to get a chance to work with the guys Savage did as anything but their valet. It's much much fairer to compare Sherri with someone like Alundra Blaze / Medusa or Moolah or the Jumping Bomb Angels because they would have worked with the same sorts of talent. The fact that Chyna held the IC title and wrestled men is of no consequence -- just an outlier, the exception that proves the rule. I don't think it's sexist to insist on a SPLIT between men and women for the purposes of a GOAT conversation. What can be achieved by comparing Aja Kong to the likes of Flair and Jumbo? How are they comparable? How could you justify ranking one above the other without getting involved in complex questions of gender politics? Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano is a proper debate. Aja Kong vs. Ric Flair is just nonsense. It's not like making films, where it really doesn't matter what gender the director is because a film is a film, in wrestling gender matters because men face men and women face women. To use a Marxist phrase gender is "always already" a big deal. Just don't see how you could have a meaningful conversation that ignored that fundamental fact.

There are separate belts for men and women. Women can't win the World Heavyweight title. Ergo, it's right to consider them separately. The right analogy is not movies but TENNIS. The GOAT Tennis player would have to be separate for men and women because there is no way to compare Roger Federer with the Williams sisters (for example). How are we going to compare Moolah's 150 year+ run with the women's belt to, say, John Cena's long run? Can't be done.

Yeah I do agree with that. I mean I can't get into Lucha AT ALL, so there's obviously something being lost in translation. There were quite a few times on the AJPW set when the crowd were laughing their asses off at something and I didn't quite understand why. I'm sure there's quite a lot of nuances being missed simply because we don't understand the commentary and aren't getting the promos.

Judging Japanese guys by american standarts would make no sense at all. Besides, tons of japanese guys have great charisma and probably great promo skills. I mean, I don't understand what Onita says, but it translates nonetheless. Ditto Aja Kong or Akira Hokuto. Well exactly, we can't know how good they are at promos so that category gets an "n/a" from me. But I don't care which standards you're using charisma and working the crowd are important. After working through the All Japan set my conclusion is that crowd dynamics are EASILY as important in Japan as they are in the US. Crowd reaction is still crowd reaction. Riki Choshu clearly has more charisma than someone like Kuniaki Kobayashi. Jumbo is obviously better at working the crowd than someone like Dory Funk Jr. It's not rocket science. I don't think that those things are "American standards".

I read earlier that he went on a big winning streak in WCW, is that right?

I'd put DiBiase top 10 (but not above Savage). There aren't too many guys who I'd rate as better all-round performers than him. He's a guy who in my view was at least 8/10 in every category. Great technician, great brawler, great talker, great charisma, great heel. People will argue that "the matches aren't there", but the MidSouth set dispels that and his best WWF stuff is underrated. I think Ted is a guy who is not the BEST in any given category but is great across the board -- a bit like Arn Anderson (although Arn is a better promo and had better psychology - I'd rank Arn above Ted, but both of them top 10). I honestly don't think that there are that many "total package" contenders. People like Benoit or Malenko with no promo skills wouldn't be getting anywhere near my top 50 probably. And Japanese guys -- who I'd cut some slack on the promo front -- at least have to show CHARISMA and ability to work with the crowd.

I never knew Rude did promos during his time with DX.

Well if people were interested in trying to do something like this again in the near future, I'd be an enthusiastic supporter, albeit one with no real presence outside this place.

Ha ha, let's pencil in 2026 for the next poll then

I don't agree. How can being more informed be worse for making a list? How many of the guys who voted for say, Dory Jr., in 2006 had actually watched a load of Dory matches? Seems to me that now everyone has greater exposure to a greater number of workers. Everyone is in a better position to make a real call.

I think the fan at MSG actually attacked Virgil, been a few years since I watched that match because it's on my old WWF Macho Madness VHS. I've just been looking at the PWI "Most Hated" awards and noticed that DiBiase won that in 82, guessing for the JYD / Stagger Lee feud and Ratpack stuff. On Flair - the thing with him is that there was always a portion of any given crowd who suppoted him -- and the horsemen in general -- even in 1987 or 1996 when he was at his most heelish. I think it's difficult for a guy with that much charisma not to have a few guys who love him. Also, another one that comes to mind for some reason is Jerry Lawler in 93 and his "burger king" heat.

I think DiBiase in 87/88 is at least in the mix. The basketball skit, the press-up challenge, the kissing of his foot etc., he was very very over as a heel in that year. If we were looking top 5 then: Heenan in 80-81 Rude in 92 HBK in 97 DiBiase in 87-8 Slaughter in 90-1 Anyone else? What about Vince?

Someone should make it happen. I'd like to see a PWO one. What would be quite interesting is if we ran one at a bigger board (DVDR?) to see how the results would differ. I'd be very surprised to see the likes of Liger or Benoit making top 10 and also *shocked* if Flair isn't top 5 at least.

Surprised that no one has mentioned the Rockers vs. Orient Express matches from the Royal Rumbles. A "hidden gem" of sorts is the Money Inc. vs. Steiner Brothers cage match from 1993. Probably DiBiase's best match after 1991.

On the subject of Rude: I had a thought the other day ... Was Rick Rude in 1992 the most over heel of all time? I just mean in terms of sheer heat. Who has ever got a better heel reaction than him at, for example, Superbrawl II? Who would even be challenging him?

The very low ranking of Lawler stood out to me. Plus the fact that Funk wasn't top 5, that Flair wasn't top 5, and that Dory Funk Jr. was there at 69. I reckon the Dory votes were purely based on rep.

Can't wait to read about how Gordon Ramsey's been using his backstage politicking to hold down other chefs. I listened to a shoot interview the other day with an oldtimer, Paul Bocuse, and he was saying that the newer, flashier workers like Heston Blumenthal "are trying to do too much with too many ingredients". Some fans have been turned off by the current product and are turning to alternatives such as "King of Hardcore", Adam Richman.

Oh this was done in in 2005/6, that explains some of it then.

Some certainly interesting results though - some I agree with, some I don't. It'd be interesting to see what a PWO poll would look like. Post-Top One-Hundred: (interesting, surprising, etc) Genuinely surprising results

I remember arguing this on here re: the question of DiBiase. See this thread in particular: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...&hl=dibiase

Happened to see a random Kofi vs. Ziggler match on Superstars this weekend and ... I was kinda impressed by it. Pretty well worked match.