JerryvonKramer

How many times in total do you think he forgave and then trusted Luger? Also, the moment when Flair turns on him in the 95 angle is one of my all-time favourite moments.

Then I can't think of anything, because pretty much all the major examples were from devastating real-life injuries. It's more common for them to have weaknesses in psychology or tactics; i.e., a spot that rarely works or an attempt at something which frequently gets reversed. I'm up for identifying some of those too.

What about this ... Jesse Ventura's old bugbear: Barry Windham's HAND! He had it taped up for about 3 years. Ha ha. Wasn't Austin's neck a big deal in his comeback?

What are some of the known (kayfabe) weaknesses of wrestlers? For example, they always played up the plane-crash injury and Flair's back as being a weakness. Was the hot shot really played up as Jumbo Tsuruta's achilles heel or is that just one of those little qurks? What are some good examples of a guy always having a weak spot? And were there guys who had no particular weaknesses? Hogan, for example, seemed to have no chink in his armour. He was even more cunning than the mastermind villains he battled and time and again is shown outthinking them (see Summerslam 88 and that travesty 2 vs 8 dungeon of doom match, strangely, both times with Savage).

You know when people say that HHH was like a 10th rate Flair knock off, what do they mean? Did HHH work "from the bottom" ever? I always remember him being booked as a kind of dominant monster heel. When was Flair ever booked in this way? When did he ever work like that? I don't see that comparison at all, and I see it time and time again? Is it just because he does a knee drop?

Dylan - very pleasant surprise to hear you turn up on the Wrestlespective podcast. This isn't intended as a knock on Jason Mann, but you are leagues above the usual calibre of guest that he has on there.

Can you let us know which claims you think are outrageous?

Breaking point 1. Came some time in 1995. Around the period where Hogan had totally fucking wrecked the WCW product I loved, and WWF was all Men on a Mission, multiple Doinks, the Godwinns, etc. etc. Think the actual thing that did it was DiBiase get slopped. Breaking point 2. The brand split basically. For me wrestling has never been the same again, for a variety of reasons.

Just seems so odd to me to see the likes of Barbarian rated over HHH. I think of stuff like Barb vs. Ron Simmons at Halloween Havoc 92, the one time he was *sort of* given a main event spot on a major PPV. I mean the top 10 moments of HHH career are surely going to spank the top 10 moments of Barb's right? What's the best ever Barb match? This one just stood out as weird to me.

Dylan - would it be fair to say that you think the general quality of wrestlers declined sharply from the 80s and early 90s into the late 90s and early 00s?

You say that Loss, but you can be sure that they'll use all the smart terminology, talking about "workers", booking and so on. I'm sure they'd argue that HHH is "a good worker" Look at this article, for example: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/438805-...hes-of-all-time The point is, to a certain generation, regardless of the type of fan they are, HHH is "a great". There's such a massive gap between this sort of view of HHH and Dylan's that I have to wonder if there might be some exaggeration on both sides. I'm not saying that there IS, just wondering about it.

I think it would be an interesting experiment to go to a more "generic" wrestling board than this one and try out the same thread and see what sort of things people say. I'm not about to sign up to one to find out, but ... I think if someone wins enough titles and spends enough time on top, then people will assume that he must be doing something right. Of course, the main trouble with that is that most of your sample population wouldn't have seen or even heard of a lot of the guys I listed there.

I actually really like some of his matches on the All Japan set. Especially the one with Brody that Dylan mentions and the 8/31/83 tag vs. Hansen and Gordy. Those matches show that when he was in the mood, Dory could show some fire and at least the hint of a personality. However, far too often he stinks up the matches in which he's involved by showing zero emotion at all. Just no ... ooompf. I mean I'm not a Dean Malenko fan and have been one of his bigger critics, but at least Malenko LOOKED like he was calculating and methodical. Dory just looked like he didn't care. That's the thing that I think a lot of people don't like about him. But when he's good, he's pretty good.

Out of interest, was he the one getting squashed or was he squashing? (considering he was main eventing the the Mid-South Coliseum in 86)

No, I haven't watched any Montreal at all in fact. I struggle to believe the guy we saw could have been THAT much better though. Like Duggan, for example, is a LOT better in Mid South than in his WWF days, but the gap is not that big.

I refuse to believe that all of you would rate Dino Bravo over HHH, that's ridiculous.

Listening to the Wrestling Culture pod, I was interested by Dylan's claim that HHH is "average". Considering he has more experience of main events and "big matches" than A LOT of guys who have big reps from the 80s, I was wondering how far Dylan would push this claim and on what basis. What follows is a list of guys, mainly from the 80s, I want to see how Dylan rates HHH vs. each of them. Not in terms of "peak year" but simply in terms of work (or "total package", including promos etc., depending on how far he wants to take it) Rick Rude Dino Bravo Greg Valentine Ronnie Garvin Curt Hennig Brian Pillman Paul Orndorff Roddy Piper Rick Martel Barry Windham Mike Rotunda Steve Keirn Tito Santana Butch Reed Mike Enos Wayne Bloom Ted DiBiase Koko B. Ware Dory Funk Jr. Haku Harley Race Tom Zenk Tommy Rich Hulk Hogan I think that's a decent and random enough cross section of guys who could be compared to Triple H. Dylan can do this any way he likes - comment on each guy, or simply three lists "better than HHH", "not as good as HHH" and "about the same as HHH". Along the way, I think we'll learn what he considers to be "average". Although this thread is intended for Dylan, feel free 1. to do this exercise yourself -- might be reasonably fun to see how people's ratings compare and 2. to give Dylan more names.

Gentleman Jerry Valiant on SNME 2 (the Uncle Elmer squash in 1985) Buddy Landell in WWF late 95-early 96, especially the title match vs. Bret Whenever Greg Valentine worked for WCW in the Nitro era JYD in WCW in 1992 Stan Hansen chewing tobacco backstage at Wrestlewar 91 Rick Martel at the 1995 Royal Rumble

Surprised that Thunderbolt Patterson didn't at least get a mention along with Ernie Ladd -- especially as you mentioned Iceman Parsons. Also Dylan, I don't know whether to do this here or make a thread for it, but I want to make a big list of wrestlers and get YOU to say whether you think HHH is better than them or not. A. It could be fun and B. I'd like to examine your claim that he's "average". I mean I have no great love for him at all, but "average" seems off to me and I want to put that vague feeling to the test.

Only 35 mins into the Black Month one and, as ever, top-drawer stuff once again chaps. I have a question / comment on the Butch Reed stuff though: was he ever rated as a worker or even "a good hand" back in the day? He seems to me like one of those guys whose rep has grown massively in the past 5 years, and specifically among fans like us. I don't know how good of a benchmark it is but, for example, the old (and extremely awesome) Death of the Territories mod for Total Extreme Wrestling 2008 -- seemingly made by smart fans with A. very good knowledge and B. generally accurate in gauging stats -- only rates his technical work in 1983 as an E grade. This roughly tallies, I think, with his rep among smart fans pre-DVDR project and *possibly* with his rep as a worker with bookers and other workers of the time. Are there any examples of a shoot interview where someone has really rated Butch Reed on the sort of level we rate him at today? Just throwing this out there really.

This is the one I don't get: * 03/09/85 Tiger Mask II vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi

Quick straw poll, but does ANYONE prefer bald psycho Kurt Angle to the three Is, milk-drinking version?

I'm convinced that if ECW had never existed and it was just WWF and WCW, Credible would never have risen above jobber status. There's a lot of ECW guys in that bracket I reckon.

Just can't understand the pyschology of a guy like that. I mean plagerism is one thing, plagerising FORUM POSTS ABOUT WRESTLING. Dear God.

How about Arn Anderson as an on-air personality? I am sure that if WCW was still going Arn, as an NWA/Crockett/ WCW guy would be on screen a hell of a lot more. I mean how many times did the WWE acknowledge the Flair - Arn connection during Flair's last run? Two times? Three?