JerryvonKramer

Where does stuff like Steiners vs. Luger and Sting fit in?

Ha ha, following on from that ... when OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE HEEL gets caught up by INTERVENING FACE and after a single punch will just be OUT COLD for like 10 minutes. I'm sure I've seen Arn Anderson out for the count in this scenario several times. The INTERVENING FACE is probably the most powerful force ever known to man. He can lay out upwards of 8 guys with basic moves. A slam or an Irish whip from this guy could actually be fatal.

There'll be maybe 3 or even in some cases 4 stretch sequences though. And you get plenty of heel-in-peril stuff too. I'm mainly talking pre-89, because a lot of the later tags have Jumbo as the hot tag.

Hold on, did any of the matches on the All Japan set really have FiP structure? I wouldn't describe all of those as "wild brawls". Is Jumbo / Tenryu vs. Yatsu / Choshu really a wild brawl?

The trope I don't like is ... THE INTERFERENCE CONTACT OF DOOM Most wrestlers can take a lot of punishment before being pinned, even chairshots. But if that chairshot comes from the deadly OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE, they are basically out cold for the 3-count. It's ridiculous. Doesn't even matter what the foreign object is either, Cornette's tennis racket, Liz's shoe, Bobby Heenan's bare fist. Another one is more specific to 80s / 90s WWF: the idea that heels can only ever win cheap. I'd say that over 90% of heel victories against non-jobbers in this period ended with clenched tights, feet on the ropes or outside interference. I think "the finish" has the potential to be the hokiest part of any match because often it's the only scripted part.

Just had a kind of weird trippy dream / nightmare in which I was getting stoned with Haku. Really weird. I've just had to wake up, come in the living room and clear my head, was so weird. Smoke everywhere. Voices. Haku laughing. It was like a Dungeon of Doom promo.

Two examples from the 80s that immediately spring to mind are Rude and DiBiase. Did Rude ever actually work face anywhere as an active worker? DiBiase, for me, is one of the blandest faces ever ever but one of all-time great heels (both MidSouth and WWF). He should never have worked face, even if it meant losing the piledriver angle and that title match. Greg Valentine is another guy who should never have worked face. I also think Kurt Angle should never have worked face. For the other way around, hard to look past Steamer and Sting. Cena is also a good shout I think.

Definitely a better promo. Also, let's pretend for a second that HHH was given Roma's spot in the horsemen. Do you think he'd be spoken of in the terms Roma is now? I just think this is one instance where you are pushing the argument too far. HHH might be average bordering on shit, but he's not THAT shit. Say what you want about HHH but he is a student of the game and he would have known that having a change to run with Arn in the horsemen was a big opportunity to learn. Roma didn't have even that level of awareness. He was just a gym monkey. What's absurd here is that you are saying that HHH is basically the same as a gym monkey. Is that really true? Can you objectively look at that and be happy with it? That is, unless you think Roma is more than just a gym monkey, which is a different conversation altogether. One I wouldn't be against having out.

The Roma entry here is borderline absurd Dylan.

DO THIS QUICKLY, FIRST THING THAT COMES INTO YOUR HEAD. THANKS FOR YOUR COOPERATION. QUICK! Name: 1. Something you'd see at the zoo 2. Something you have for breakfast 3. A disney character 4. A gameshow host 5. Something you'd take on a picnic 6. A video game hero 7. A video game villain 8. Something you'd associate with Christmas 9. Something you'd find in a car 10. Something to do with Charles Dickens 11. Something you'd associate with a summer's day 12. Something you'd associate with the circus 13. Component of a roast dinner 14. Something you'd see on a farm 15. Something you'd find in your bathroom

I should mention too, that Walton was ABSOLUTELY KEY in helping get the more pantomime-style acts like Catweazle over by playing it so absolutely straight as a sporting contest no matter what.

Like Big Daddy or Giant Haystacks or Kendo Nagasaki? I think there's a big difference between a bit of pizzazz and character / charisma and, for example, Jimmy Hart vs. JYD in a waterslide race or Roddy Piper playing trick or treat on Halloween night. Those were some of the more colourful characters, but the presentation was still largely realistic and as a legit sport.

You've got to remember when it went out too. Right in the middle of the football results between the half-time scores and the full-time results (so about 45 minutes). World of Sport wasn't a wrestling show but a sports show, ITV's rival to the longrunning Grandstand series which only finished around 2007-8 sort of time. Both shows would run from around 12.30pm to around 5.30pm every Saturday and it would comprise coverage of a lot of different sports every week. Could be anything, snooker, darts, F1, rugby, golf, you name it. There was no way in that context WWF-style wrestling with angles and whatnot could have been put in that slot, it would be ridiculous. It had to be presented as a legit sport to get over with those general sports fans who'd be watching for those hours on a saturday. Remember, Grandstand was on the BBC so the wrestling would be up against horseracing, boxing, football, or some other sport -- those guys would just switch over if they thought they were watching cartoon nonsense.

I know what MJH means about "Britishness" ... from my own point of view a lot of the appeal of wrestling lies in a a certain time and place. Being transported to a world that probably doesn't exist anymore that I'll never and can never be a part of. Some smokey dive somewhere in the Mid South circa 1984 with guys in the crowd genuinely wearing cowboy hats with Bill Watts unironically with absolutely no selfawareness talking about "sissies". Or maybe it's the early 90s in a time that fashion forgot and there's some dude with a mustache in the crowd all in denim going wild for the Stinger. I reckon at least 20% of my enjoyment of wrestling comes from that sort of thing. The social aspect of it, the location, the sense of time and place. It's a large contributing factor to why I'm not interested in today's product so much. When I was watching the All Japan set seeing those 80s Japanese crowds, men in suits and glasses stoically silent in the first few rows, more rowdy fans towards the back ... it was all interesting and part of the appeal. HOWEVER, all of that said, I find WoS fascinating for many of the same reasons. Britain in the 70s, and THAT Britain -- the sort of people who would go to wrestling matches -- is light years away from your modern X-Factor crowd. And it's interesting to see. But I do know, to an extent, where MJH is coming from on this. Even whenever I hear Daveyboy or William Regal speak on an old show I'm always thrown by it.

Might be a case to merge this thread with this one: prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=15061

I, for one, don't really understand it. Look at all the other managers from that era: Heenan, Jimmy Hart, Slick, Mr. Fuji, Jim Cornette ... None of them are on the WWE product or have been since the 90s. Would Heenan have a prominent role if his voice still worked? I doubt it. And then all of the talented promo men who have retired (e.g. ARN, DiBiase, etc. etc.) and then think, Teddy Long still has that spot. It's insane when you think about it, absolutely insane.

This. I'd put in Mike Rotunda as I.R.S. (or his similar WCW gimmicks), mostly because there's a scene in Wall Street with Charlie Sheen wearing the white shirt, tie and suspenders that instantly remind me of him. All that was missing were the glasses. Rotunda was just so GREASY as IRS, something about him made him look like a total sleazeball. Underrated character in my book. He was more sleazy circa 91 with the longer hair. Let me try to find some fitting pics: Perfect illustration: What a slimy individual.

Is this the one with the chewing tobacco?

Surely Jake Roberts?

Was Harley still considered a main eventer when he went to the WWF?

Having watched all of the PPVs only, I'd say either Arn Anderson or Vader. Vader had a good 1995, and he was booked reasonably strongly even with Hogan around. I reckon Johnny B. Badd would have to be in the conversation.

- The World Wide music is fucking awesome, made better from watching Tully slingshot suplex Pat Tanaka in slow motion. Interesting to see the latter as a young jobber. - If we did "top undercard guys ever" list, I reckon Sam Houston would have to finish top 10. He was just great in this plucky JTTS role. Obviously, working against the Horsemen every week has got to help, but still. - Ha ha, Dusty's just done a run in and he's got that concept that seems only to exist in 80s wrestling "the loaded boot". Never quite understood what "loaded" is meant to mean or how it makes the boot more painful. - "The past few weeks I haven't been here and the ratings have gone down. Well, Ted, don't worry". lol, doesn't matter how many Flair promos you watch, he still finds ways to put a smile on your face. And again, "They've [the Road Warriors] have come down from that backwater, the AWA, back to the major leagues, back to the big time ... The AWA and Dusty Rhodes are NOT what is happening in wrestling today. WHOO" -Can already see in this 6-man from 85 that Flair and Ronnie Garvin had great chemistry. - Awesome, all four of the horsemen, still pre-horsemen, cutting a promo. Excellent to see the stable forming before your eyes. Road Warriors facepaint in 85 looks ridiculous. -Koko Ware looks pretty good here. Struck by how MASSIVE his thighs and ass are. Very thick built lower body. Stopping here and going to watch the full Starrcade 85 card. Feels right to.

Heh, "Ric Flair should have retired after beating Vader in 1993. It's 1997. Do the math."