JerryvonKramer

I was talking about Fall Brawl, yeah. The 5-minute Arn and Eddie vs. Savage and Flair match from Slamboree 96 is really great and fun by the way. One of my favourite sub-10 minute matches ever. I'd put it up there with the best Hansen vs. Baba matches for sheer awesomeness and funess.

Here's what I said about that match on my site:

Anything from King of the Ring 1991. I've always wanted to see that 15-minute Steamboat vs. DiBiase draw.

Dylan, with Arn vs. Flair you can talk about down periods, but then you can also talk about greatness. Arguably Arn's best match of the 90s was against Flair. Is that match even in Flair's top 5 for the decade? I know a bunch of you (jdw, for example ) will now come out and tell me that match isn't even very good, but I'd like to see the argument that doesn't put it top 5 for Arn's 90s matches. Does Arn have anything to match Wrestlemania 8 vs. Savage or Rumble 92? What about the Fujinami match from 91? (the one that happened in Japan). What about the Vader match from 93? Is consistently solid better than someone who hits those heights but then has some downtime? Also, I think Flair never stopped being a great promo if you expand "worker" to encompass the total package. Arn was a great promo too, but I'm positive Top 10 Flair 90s promos would have the edge on Top 10 Arn 90s promos -- although he has some GREAT ones, especially during the Dangerous Alliance run. I'm going to put my order in for the 92, 93 and 96 yearbooks soon. I got a bunch of birthday money I don't know what to do with, so why not? I'd be interested to see Loss's opinion on this given that he's seen them all.

I'll lend my voice to the Arn case. He was phenomenal 95-6. And like people have said, pretty much amazing during the Dangerous Alliance angle of 92. What was he doing 93-4 though? I recall several disappointing matches from him during that period (e.g Windham). I don't think he'd be above Flair in the general running.

A think a similar "Best US worker of the 80s" thread would also be an interesting conversation and Savage would have to be high in that mix.

I'd have to take a look at that match from Halloween Havoc 91, because I absolutely hated that show and my little review doesn't mention it as a highlight even within that context. I have to be honest, whenever a Dustin match has come up I've been bored to tears. I didn't enjoy any of his stuff, with Regal, with Bunkhuose Buck, with Austin, with the Dangerous Alliance, etc. I might revisit some of those to take a second look. In the context of most of shows shows, the Dustin match always seemed to be eating up a load of time and kind of lull on the card. He was the definition of bland for me.

Was he more over than Sting? And if not, how can he be the better worker? I've watched every single WCW PPV from 1990 to GAB 1996 in the past two years and the idea that Dustin is a better worker than Sting is frankly ridiculous. Sting had great matches with good workers and people say he was carried. Dustin had mediocre matches with Austin, Rude, and Arn And yet here we are aruging over if he was better than Sting. I don't get this at all. I accept that "the answer" isn't Sting. But I think he was better than he's being credited for here.

Why is Dustin Rhodes there in the OP? And is Dustin Rhodes a better worker than Sting? And if so, how?

Again, can't understand why you'd list Vader and not Sting. Sting's matches with Vader, Cactus Jack and with Luger vs. the Steiners alone should at least get him a mention. He was always good value in the War Games. Always good vs. Flair (GAB'90, Clash 1, Clash 27). He had good matches with Regal, Rude (Clash 17, Clash 21!, Spring Stapede, Superbrawl 2), Nikita (Clash 15, GAB 91), to name but a few.

I wish I'd thought of that FLIK. Fanastic point. On Bret vs. Sting - Sting was significantly better on the mic and had bagloads more charisma. I think Sting had "X-factor" and that Bret never did. Obviously, WWF was annhilating WCW in 1992-3, but how about in 94-6? Not that that would seriously help Sting's cause because he wasn't top dog at that point.

Did Terry ever have another run in AJ after 1983?

I had a little lol at that. On World of Sport, I was way off base there. I think my source was actually a Big Daddy fansite. Being from the UK myself, I should have questioned that figure as being ridiculously inflated. The real figure seems like AT PEAK at 12 million maximum. Which is still a pretty massive audience here FOR WRESTLING. It's also a tough call on how much the wrestling itself was attracting because it had other sport around it. You're picking up a lot of sports fans there -- the same people who would have watched Grandstand when it was on -- who tune in regardless of what sport it is. I would question whether the UK is / was in the top 5 wrestling markets in the world. The only time I'd argue it was massively over here was in 1991-2 sort of time, and even then by 1993 MOST of those kids had lost interest. I have a friend who actually went to Summerslam 92 who had stopped watching by Summerslam 93. The drop off was pretty sudden and steep. Someone like me who was a proper wrestling fan had to push it underground because it had serious "uncool" stigma (and still does). I've made the argument many times, but WWF was like a fad here -- like Yo Yos or roller skates. I don't believe it reached those levels again during the Monday Night Wars, although for a generation of younger kids they'd have casually watched at least some of the Austin or Rock runs. That's really it though. My impression of Big Daddy's run is similar. That it was another here today, gone tomorrow fad only for the generation older than me (I'm 29). I'm not convinced there is a proper "tradition" of wrestling here. Look at Regal's career, he went to Germany pretty quickly. The UK as a wrestling market is probably less important than, say, the state of Texas. Do you think I'm pushing that argument too hard?

Ok John, happy to accept I'm wrong on this

Barry Horowitz and Jeff Gaylord. Apparently the latter went on to a career in ... bank robbery and is still doing time for it!

If you do find figures for Patera, it might also be worth noting them for Greg Valentine too. If only as a benchmark. Is Patera more deserving than Valentine? Is the case stronger than it is for Valentine? I think that's a reasonably interesting question.

The whole Messiah angle in the Bible is pretty epic. They teased his coming for over 2000 years, pretty massive build. So well booked that whole deal. Matthew was running Israel at that time with Mark, Luke and John on the committee. They teased a heel turn when he threw those tables over. It was probably one of the best booked babyface runs of all time. Jesus had fantastic promo skills, real calm delivery and a flair for extended metaphors. And the crowd popped crazy for the miracles. He had some great heels to work with in that territory as well. From early in his career against Herod right up to the end against Pilate. Judas was a pretty great heel too.

In some ways the case for Haystacks is about the same as the case for Big Daddy. One thing that is forgotten is that Big Daddy's run was really quite short. We're talking roughly 1975 to the mid 80s. Before that he wasn't particularly well known and wrestled as another character. His sole claim to fame is that run. Big Daddy's biggest drawing feud was against Giant Haystacks. Unlike Big Daddy, Haystacks travelled. He worked Calgary and, as we all know, WCW briefly. He was a decent heel and a bit of a freak weighing over 500lbs at 6'11. I think all this does though is highlight the weakness of Big Daddy's case. I think someone like Rick Martel would be a stronger candidate than Big Daddy, if you think about it and he doesn't seem to be on the ballot.

Is Giant Haystacks not a candidate because he was fat and crap?

Hey jdw, can you answer my question? http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...p;#entry5483635

I think one of the Only Fools and Horses Christmas specials might have hit it once too.

Are you kidding me? He was fantastic in WCW!

A few things: Big Daddy - World of Sport had something like 30 million viewers in the 70s. Which was more than 50% of the UK population. As such Big Daddy is the Hogan of UK wrestling. Why? Because if you ask pretty much ANY casual non-wrestling fan over a certain age to name one wrestler, then they'll probably name Big Daddy (and after him probably Giant Haystacks). Seems to me that if you are going to include ANY WoS workers, then he has to be number 1 on that list. Jesse Ventura - given that this is a non-wrestling nomination, who said he wasn't good at his job? Is there seriously a counter to the common wisdom that he was GOAT colour commentator? Better than Heenan in my book. Curt Hennig - why is he on the ballot and not Rick Rude? I don't understand that AT ALL. I'm guessing for his AWA run? But that seems to me to be massively offset by Rude's WCW stuff. Makes no sense to me.

Enjoyed show 2 very much. Loved the way you systematically compared him to ALL of the major contenders. This is pretty much perfect GOAT discussion.

I wonder if it is possible to privilege Japanese stuff and territories too much, at the expensive of the American majors. I'm not buying this line that Vader "blows Sting away by a significant margin in every way as a candidate". Why? Because imagine for a second that Sting had his EXACT same career, only in AJPW or NJPW rather than Crockett / WCW. I know that sounds weird, but imagine it if you will. Same number of titles, same number of great matches, same years on top. Now imagine he was not called Sting but instead Ryu Stinguji Would we even be having this conversation? Would we? I think we all know the answer to that question.