JerryvonKramer

I distinguished between the G which is matches at the 4.75-5 level, and V which is 3.75-4.5 level (and against different opponents).

I snarked a similar request in my first post, but I edited it out because I don't know if there's anything less productive for this discussion than whipping out match lists and comparing length. Well someone scoffed at me saying 80+ and things were getting spicy.

The goal of the promoter is to make money. The goal of the worker is to put on the best performance possible while also achieving the aims of the booker. And workers often talk about this stuff. Often. It's not like wrestlers have been quiet about this sort of thing.

Can you now do the same for Kobashi, Chad?

Ric Flair and the Horsemen talk about trying to steal the show on every card. Bret in shoots actively talks himself up as putting a great deal of thought into how to have the best match possible. Kenta Kobashi speaks Japanese and I don't, but I can see it in his eyes that he is of the same mindset.

Completely different eh? I'd like to see that.

What a dumb worker eh.

Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (7/15/89) - Kobahsi knocks it out of the park Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (04/20/91) - and again Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (05/22/92) - and again Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi & Giant Baba (11/27/92) - and again Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (06/01/93) - and again Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (7/29/93) - and again Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi (12/3/93) - and again Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (05/21/94) - and again Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (06/09/95) - he's killing it yet again Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (12/06/96) - and again Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (01/20/97) - amazing yet again Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama (07/24/98) - and again Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada (06/12/98) - and again And on and on and on and on it goes. "Yeah but Bret had a really neat side Russian legsweep and I like the way he seemed legit and how his moves made sense." That's literally your argument.

What happens when the numbers are something like literally 80+ vs about 4 or 5 as is the situation with Kobashi vs. Bret?

I named John Cena.I would love to hear someone try to make a case that Cena is great based on his skills rather than his output. It cannot be done in my view. John Cena had great fire, gets great sympathy with selling and can do very hot comebacks. He builds drama better than most. Cena is a great wrestler. Yes his execution stinks, but the stories and feeling are there. All these things are true of other wrestlers who don't have the laundry list.I don't believe for a second anyone would rank Cena as highly as he has been if he didn't have the list. You are delusional if you think otherwise. It is his case. His whole case. Who is saying you have to completely ignore output? You can't divorce the two. You made the dichotomy earlier when trying to defend your basically absurd Bret #5 vs Kobashi #18 rankings.

Bruno? Jumbo? Cena as capturing the idea of ace over Jumbo hurts.

I named John Cena.I would love to hear someone try to make a case that Cena is great based on his skills rather than his output. It cannot be done in my view. John Cena had great fire, gets great sympathy with selling and can do very hot comebacks. He builds drama better than most. Cena is a great wrestler. Yes his execution stinks, but the stories and feeling are there. All these things are true of other wrestlers who don't have the laundry list. I don't believe for a second anyone would rank Cena as highly as he has been if he didn't have the list. You are delusional if you think otherwise. It is his case. His whole case.

I think the point had been proven pretty stunningly.

I named John Cena. I would love to hear someone try to make a case that Cena is great based on his skills rather than his output. It cannot be done in my view.

You like big, I like subtle. I don't think really accounts for the disparity in credit these guys get. And Kawada is hardly that subtle. Let's face it, where does the idea Arn Anderson was really smart come from? It's cos he pointed to his head. I also believe the idea of Bock as this all-time smart guy is partly cos his gimmick was "I am smarter than you"

Why does Kawada get psychology points for his limb selling but Kobashi doesn't? Is it cos Kawada looks sly and Kobashi looks like a big goof?

He also had lots of very good and great matches with other people. He also has more great performances within great matches than just about anyone I've ever seen, including Flair.

I think Lothario was my soldier number #2. All of which suggests one thing .... Scott Steiner high voters.

How can a guy have that many great matches and be considered a dumb worker?

I'm around #31 spot now. One thing that has slightly surprised me so far is how different Charles's list is from Chad's. I always think of those two aligning a lot, but their lists are pretty different so far.

Timothy is definitely the high vote on Dory.

"Kobashi is Shawn Michaels with better offense and opponents." Dylan, I love you, but what the fuck is this? Straight out of the Schnedier "Jumbo was Terry Taylor" playbook of completely baffling and wrong analogies.

I ranked 182 workers, it just so happened Rick Steiner finished there.

I'd also like people in the next few hours to LIST OUT: 1. Kobashi finishes they can remember. 2. Bret finishes they can remember. Cos right now, I can think of lots of 1 and not that many of 2.

But Kobashi kills Bret in both. He had more offense than Bret. It hit harder. He could just do more. He was better at selling a hold. He was better at showing he was in pain. He was better at bumping. He was better at hitting bombs. And he was better at putting that vast array of tools together to have compelling matches again and again and again and again. And you can't have god knows how many 5-star matches without understanding psychology. I honestly think this position is bonkers. In some ways, even more insane than your position in the Bret vs. Flair debate.