JerryvonKramer

Here is Dominic in his prime in Australia in 1965: You'll notice that, while he was a big man, he did have some agility. And sold those nasty looking knee drops by Lackey perfectly well. Here is is tagging with my boy Ted in 1979: Hilariously, an irate Ivan Putski turns up half way through this match. Dominic has a serious case as a WON Hall of Famer. Was he a great in-ring worker? Well, before Putski and before Strongbow, he was Bruno's #2 man. He always stayed over with fans despite losses. We've seen him get sizable pops into the 1980s. He seemed to be someone dear to the crowds at MSG and elsewhere in the Northeast. He was also, marginally, a better worker in terms of what he could do than Putski and Strongbow, one gets the impression he had more tools to start with. And on occassion, such as against the Iron Sheik in 1979, you can see some flashes from real fire from old Dom. Another one of the serious "anti-workrate" candidates from Vince Sr's roster of anti-workrate specialists.

His greatest crime remains, essentially, "not being Andre". I thought that match with Sheamus is a good little taster of the "Big Show that could have been". Sadly, as it has turned out, it was the Big Show that never was.

He was probably more over than Roman Reigns in that one Fort Worth show, so there's that

Ranger Ross is kind of a marvel of modern science: -Take the military gimmick of Sgt. Slaughter - Take the martial arts of Ricky Steamboat - Take the shucking and jiving of Thunderbolt Patterson - Take the black guy who specialises at being a JTTSness of SD Jones Mix them all together and what do you get? A total fucking mess that's what! Later, WCW scientists would perfect the formula to produce Sgt. Craig Pittman.

Baron Scicluna had a legit 30 year career in WWF, and mainly I noticed that Kane was not nominated and thought it might be funny if I snuck the Baron in. I will say this: the guy knew how to get heat. I've been shouted at for comparing him to Lawler before, but Scicluna was a master at the phantom foreign object stuff. I mean sure, he had basically nothing else to his act, but you have to give it to him, he got mileage out of it. Also consider that it has been fashionable for some to praise guys for "playing their roles" and doing what is asked of them. The Baron's main job was to have really nothing 10-minute curtain jerkers while people were still arriving at MSG. As in, he deliberately had bad matches, because he was the wrestling equivalent at a spoiler at a Casino. Remember this guy? That was the Baron. And you know they say it takes a true maestro to know how to play a piano out of key.

It's very possible that Jesse is the worst worker to have been nominated through this entire process. Viewed from a workrate perspective, Venutra is stunningly lacking in athletic ability or technical prowess. It sometimes amazes me that for a guy who could speak so intelligently about wrestling on commentary, in the ring he doesn't seem to know a wrist lock from a wrist watch. He is literally hopeless. And yet, he was over, he got good reactions, he was a star everywhere he went. And despite it all, is part of some pretty good matches, albeit almost always as a tag partner being carried. I mainly nominated him to give the anti-workrate contingent more people to think about. But also as a means of contrasting him with other apparently dogshit wrestlers like Putski and Strongbow. Where the difference comes, I think, is that Putski and especially Strongbow had timing. They knew what to do and when. Jesse, honestly has zero clue. He has very little ring sense at all, and tries to overcome this through sheer stalling.

Tor Kamata was one of those travelling heels from the 60s and 70s whose career ended before national expansion and so is more or less totally forgotten by most fans. He had runs in GCW (see him and Ray Stevens vs. Bob and Brad Armstong) and WWWF, where he has one really good match tagging with Bulldog Brower (awful) against Steamboat and Youngblood, and one in 1980 vs. Pat Patterson, but is probably best viewed in the international all-star scene of 1970s All Japan where he was very often an ersatz Abdullah or filled in for The Sheik. He has effective bouts against Billy Robinson, Terry Funk, Dick Murdoch, Giant Baba, and Dick Slater. Our friend in Japan has made some of this footage available. In terms of his working style, think of a hybrid of the Wild Samoans and Abby, with a more martial arts slant. He's actually more agile than Abby and easily a better worker than Afa or Sika. Again, if he'd come just a few years later, the crowd who are high on the Kamalas and John Tentas of this world would no doubt have nominated him already. I think he was probably a more accomplished worker than Kamala, as a basis of comparison.

For Valiant alone, I'd actually try the fabled Battle of Atlantic City, it's a thirty minute match against Andre the Giant and Ted Dibiase in 1979, he tags with Baron Scicluna. I maintain it is a really good match. I uploaded it before: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32225-the-battle-of-atlantic-city-andre-dibiase-vs-scicluna-jerry-valiant-72679/ Beyond that I'd just watch any random Valiant's tags. There's one against Denucci and Wilbur Snyder on YouTube and without even recalling it off hand, you will quickly see what sets Jerry apart from Jimmy and John.

True blood n guts n brass knucks type worker with a cracking moustache. He has footage in places that tend to be a bit under-explored, such as Florida, and Southwest. Stuff with Terry Funk is worth seeking out, just for the angles really. In Southwest he has matches with Bock, Chavo, Tully and the Sheepherders. As anyone will tell you, that stuff is easy to watch and is enjoyable, but also weirdly ephemeral too. In JCP, he has matches with Arn, Abby of course, and the Rock n Rolls tagging with Rude. Later, he has a random NJ run, which I've not watched. And a feud with an old Wahoo in AWA that some people really liked. I feel like if guys like Johnny Sorrow or Rob Naylor were driving this project there'd be more Manny love.

Imagine Bobby Heenan. Okay, now imagine Bobby Heenan doing a 360 bump over a turnbuckle. And that, right there, is Jerry Valiant's case in nutshell. He might just be the most unheralded and most underrated worker of the 1970s. I'd go as far as to say that I might be the only person in the world who even gives a shit about him. Okay, that might be a stretch, me and about three old men on kayfabe memories. But I guarantee you that if this guy had been around in the 90s say, he'd have been nominated already and have at least a dozen different people commenting on him.

Do you think Greg Gagne vs. Robert Gibson is an outrageous comparison?

If we had just a few more matches on tape, I think Schmidt would be a shoo in. Was awesomely stiff, worked in a manner that is much more intense than is typical of his era, and understood how to work his gimmick. He is good to great in just about every single match we have. There is probably enough there to make a case if people are willing to vote for guys like Pat O'Connor or Lou Thesz or Buddy Rogers, based on what we have (which is more than you might expect). For me, the style of that era isn't something I enjoy, and it often bores the flying fuck out of me. But Schmidt is the one guy I dig a lot and I'm giving serious thought to rating him and seeing if he gets on.

Ole is an all-time great talker but probably not an all-time great worker. However, he is very good at administering a beatdown, coming off that top rope with the flying knee drop, targeting a body part and staying on it, and all that other Anderson goodness. Trouble is, he doesn't bump and stooge like the other Horsemen and can be one of the least giving wrestlers this side of Bruiser Brody or Mil Mascaras. Still, he has some great and memorable matches to his name. The famous one with Dusty vs. Assassins, vs. Rock n Rolls at Starrcade 86, the strap match with Flair in 80, and about three million squash matches just fucking destroying jobbers with Arn in 85-6.

Now you mention it, I can really see him in that setting and have a harder time seeing Knobbs there. Saggs looks like he genuinely might forget to wash some days.

From 1983 to about 1987 he is a perfectly fine wrestler. I really like the cage match with Flair when he passes out to the figure four. I've seen some people really low on that match but I've never got why exactly. Fans of WTBBP, of course, know how much I hate him in the early 90s. In fact, he's won that Billy Graham award so many times, it's become kind of endearing. "YEAH YEAH YEAH"

For as gangly and awkward as he is, he is not Erik Watts. And as one half of the high-flyers has a load of good matches to his name. I even bought him in some of the singles bouts, and I thought it seemed a bit weird that Brunzell was nominated but Greg wasn't.

For some reason, Saggs always felt like the lesser of the two to me.

The Nasty Boys are starting to feel a little forgotten to time. But they always had a habit of creeping up on you with sneaky good matches that are better than you feel they ever had any right to be.

As Master G in Mid-South, I think he is packaged in a way that makes him look effective. He was a jobber for a lot of his career, but that run makes me wonder if he ever had the potential for more.

My feeling is that Grey is like a WoS version of a Rick Martel or Ricky Steamboat. Tremendous seller and bumper, great at generating sympathy, natural and likeable babyface who creates strong comeback narratives in his matches, and has good fire when he needs to show it. Like the very best babyfaces, he can work very effectively from underneath.

Steve Grey vs. Mick McManus (5/11/77) Dug this match a good bit. McManus has great character work and can get nasty when he wants to. Grey is the archtypal plucky underdog WoS babyface. Was surprised to see that this wasn't reviewed anywhere by OJ or Magnum Milano. Definitely a worthy addition to the resume of both guys. Steve Grey is great at flying around making McManus look dangerous. Very enjoyable bout. **** Steve Grey and Alan Sarjeant vs. Zoltan Boscik and Sid Cooper (8/13/77) Johnny Saint is injured with Sarjeant subbing but Boscik claims there's nothing wrong with Saint, he's running scared. I have to say, I much prefer Boscik as a weasely, stooging, cowardly heel than I did with him a babyface in 1972 (vs. Breaks). I had quite a hard time telling the difference between Saejeant and Grey in this match because they were wearing the same tights, are the same size, and has the same hair. Both are excellent all bumping babyfaces. Sort of like WoS versions of a Rick Martel, only skinnier, paler and less good looking. Sid Cooper looks a decent heel, kind of felt less technical and more brawl-y than your typical WoS worker, he was doing stomps. But I thought Boscik totally outshone and overshadowed him in this match. His character work is really good. So damn stoogey. Pretty good tag. ***1/2 Steve Grey vs. Zoltan Boscik (3/18/78) Grey is just a phenomenal bumper and seller. Boscik is incredibly heelish, I feel in terms of actual cheating and begging off and so on, he's possibly even more heelish than Breaks or McManus. The other two do more general moaning, but Boscik is just fucking dirty. Don't think he did a single hold without using the ropes behind the ref's back. One of the things I enjoyed about this bout was the suddenness and explosiveness of some of the attacks, from both guys. Grey really does work from underneath a hell of a lot, so it is mostly Boscik controlling with filthy tactics, with the occasional hope spot from Grey. One cool spot Grey does is the kick to the leg, followed by the single leg takedown. Just a great visual and it looks like it has real impact. Boscik tends to go for the arm more, and does a pretty fly arm ringer. Also more Irish whips and stomps than we typically see out of Breaks. Surprisingly less mat orientated. He does a guillotine over the top rope too, which is a standard US heel spot. Pretty accessible worker I'd say if you are a US fan who has struggled to get into WoS. I honestly thought this was an excellent match. Exciting with Grey making Boscik look a million bucks and putting on a real comeback story for a hot finish. Just some great pro wrestling here. ****1/2 Steve Grey vs. Jon Cortez (7/27/81) One of the funniest things about this is that Kent Walton is palpably irritated by the fact that both go are wearing black trunks and he's struggling to tell them apart. At one time he says, grumpily, "I've been trying to tell the wrestlers for years to wear different coloured tights" Ha! Ha! He comes back to not being able to tell them apart another five or six times during the match. I imagine he was furious. This is unusually heated for a WoS match. Cortez shows a lot of aggression, but even Grey is forced to bust out some really stiff forearm smashes at one point. Very good match, but I thought the finish was pretty terrible. First, I had to laugh out loud when the St. John's Ambulance men were like the cast of Dad's Army, the one guy must have been in his late 70s. Second, it's just a super disappointing finish to a match that had been simmering until boiling point. Some really good stuff here, with the two babyfaces surprisingly getting in each others' faces which makes up for the lack of a heel and face dynamic and the general heel character work that can keep one hooked to a WoS match. But I just can't forgive that finish, and it brings this down a good bit. Could have been a classic. **** Steve Grey vs. Jim Breaks (5/12/81) Not sure of the date on this, but figure it is 1981 based on the fact that Walton mentions Breaks had recently lost his European title to Cortez, which as he tells us in the previous bout I watched was in March of 81. Also Breaks looks older and is wearing those yellow bumble bee tights. This had a weird quickness to it, almost like watching an old black and white silent film where the people are moving a bit too quickly to be natural. Grey does a bit more limb selling here as Breaks, of course, lasers in on the arm setting up for that Breaks Special. Grey is not above going for the dreaded Breaks nose either, and is in danger of getting a public warning! Goodie two shoes Grey sternly told off by the ref. Ha ha. The psychology around Grey's left arm is really good here. Fans of limb psychology would love this match. And I, of course, am such a fan. And yes, I love this match. Just excellent work all round here. And yet another near-classic Breaks match. ****3/4 ------- Steve Grey might be the best babyface I've seen in WoS, he's just so good at bumping and selling and making his opponent look good. He is able to show fire on occasion too. Especially in those last two matches I watched when he got more aggressive.

This thread isn't really for this discussion. But me, Loss, Chad, shoe and god knows how many other guys have gone over that old line at least half a dozen times in the past four years. If you want some light reading, search for Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair (Microscope), The Flair Formula (again, Microscope) and also read his nomination thread. At this point, the line feels lazy and simply won't wash with many of us. If you've watched his matches against all fifty of those opponents I listed and still feel that way -- fine, I'll think you are totally mental and wonder if you have eyes or a functioning brain, but fine -- but just throwing that line out there after we've been over it so many times isn't really cool. But please, let's leave this thread for the ratings, I have a lot of guys to get through.

The forum has a search function. Suggest you use it.

They've already done it. He's the evil heel authority figure on Raw and he's lovable ol' Dad on NXT. I mean it's not entirely without precedent. Flair was face in the Carolinas while he was heel everywhere else. There is the Bret and Austin fued, which worked well. I think the problem with this is that it is just so horribly handled. They don't seem to realise that Triple H doing the DX chops just totally buries Roman, no matter who the audience is. This may well be one of the worst booked main event feuds in the history of the WWE. I can't really think of a worse one.

I tell you they are trying to do this weird thing where HHH is the babyface "for the hardcores" and Reigns is the babyface for the kids and women. It is hideous but that is what they are going for.