Mr Wrestling X

I mentioned ROH because it's the happy medium between the face in peril and the spot heavy tag matches. Sure, the face in peril scenario is a successful formula, but that doesn't make it ok for the heel wrestler to just rely on illegal tactics and rest holds (which is pretty much what you get from WWE tag team matches). If the face is great at selling the distinction between moves (a headlock being discomforting and a figure four leglock being excruciating for instance) and the heel is great at determining an interesting pacing and order of moves then it's a formula that works for me. Funnily enough, I actually thought the recent CM Punk vs Mark Henry match on Raw (the first one) did the face in peril formula that I just described really well. Of course, this wasn't a tag team match though.

It's probably the same for a lot of people, but the one thing that annoys me about Dusty's booking in WCW (when I've watched old matches) was his tendency to overly prolong feuds by having so many of his false finishes and run-in's part of the main event picture. Of course, Russo took this one step too far by having false finishes and run in's that made no real sense whatsoever and were done presumably, in the name of "unpredictablity" - which was what made him successful in the WWF during the heyday of the "Attitude Era" (because Vince McMahon, etc would cut out the illogical elements of his booking and the end product would be decent).

I'm not particulary fond of the tag team standard that is "playing Ricky Morton". I suppose this could be down to the fact that it's so overused to the point of ridiculousness in modern wrestling. The beating that the "Ricky Morton" takes has become more and more harsh with the eventual comeback destroying my suspension of disbelief and negating much of the good points of the match. Don't get me wrong, some wrestlers really excel at this role because they are naturally good at selling and along with the other participants in the match, they subscribe to the "less is more" concept and don't ruin the suspension of disbelief that they create. Some modern promotions like ROH have phased out his trope in favour of more dynamic, fast paced and unpredictable tag team wrestling that isn't spot heavy but naturally, WWE continues to favour this trope in the majority of their tag team contests. So, I pose the thread title as question to everyone else...

It's things like this that remind us the power that a professional wrestling audience has at making stars, especially when the promotion doesn't seem particulary thrilled about pushing a performer. It's a somewhat frustrating double standard, when a wrestler really buys into the concept of working on all fronts and doing the best they can to recieve a reaction from the audience and "get over" only for management to sour on them for having the brass neck to go into business from themselves.

They still fine wrestlers in some British promotions if they perform a piledriver, although it's pretty obvious that it's a work designed to get heels over. (especially when they refuse to pay up)

Agreed about Kizarny, it went on for ages and everyone was talking about how much WWE had invested in the character and then... Nothing, not even a trial feud. How about Vader during his run with WWF in the mid 1990's? His debut with the company was hugely hyped and his first appearances on TV were given a great deal of fanfare, but then it became apparent that WWF had no confidence in him (and the Kliq apparently despised him) and buried him. What a waste of an exceptional worker...

I haven't seen the bridge up into a backslide spot for a while and I can't remember the last time a tag team in WWE did a double-team signature move to finish off an opponent, the matches always seem to end with one from each team brawling outside the ring whilst the two in the ring go for a straight finish.

I definitely agree with those who mentioned Sgt. Slaughter during his Iraqi Sympathiser gimmick, I've seen matches and promos from that period and the audience absolutely loathed him. I've also read interviews where Slaughter mentioned that people tried to attack him on a regular basis. I also agree with those who mentioned Shawn Michaels in 1997/1998 - the post-screwjob reactions were just a bonus to an already stellar amount of hatred generated by the WWF fanbase. The fans at ECW One Night Stand 2006 absolutely detested Randy Orton more than any of the other WWE performers and there were numerous slurs (mostly suggesting that Orton was homosexual) directed at Orton, who actually seemed to relish in the attention like all good heels. I think it was Vince McMahon and Triple H who recieved the most asshole chants, I seem to recall Triple H usually recieving them during his first promo after a screwy title defense. The asshole thing phased out when Austin started to punctuate "what?" in his promos, which quickly took off with the audience and became a generic chant directed at anyone who cut promos that were boring or were being spoken by someone that was in uber heel mode with the crowd. Hall, Nash and Hogan were pretty resented during the beginning of the NWO angle, people would throw rubbish in the ring and there would even be the odd person who would run out and try and attack them!

Here's one... Kane or The Big Show Both big men who seem to spend years floating in the upper mid card which either results in a title reign and main event push, or they are fed to the new rising star before the cycle begins again.

Modern WWE is a bad offender when it comes to over-using (and re-using) signature moves. At one stage in the last couple of years, Edge, Batista and Big Show were using the Spear as a signature move. Most recently, it seems that WWE has taken a fascination in using the Jumping Complete Shot and it's a move that has been quickly placed on another wrestler following the previous wrestler leaving the company. It's even extended to reverse variations of the move (which look awkward and are easily bothced) in the cases of Heath Slater (Sweetness) and Dolph Ziggler (Zig Zag). In the past, a signature move was a move that was only associated with the wrestler that performed it. The finishing move was just as much a part of the wrestler as the character that they played. It was a move that other wrestlers - even those in rival promotions, wouldn't go near as part of the unwritten code of honor that existed in wrestling then (and still does to a degree today). At some point in the early 1990's, things changed and it became common for newer wrestlers to re-use the finishing moves of the past. Eventually, these moves became so commonplace that they became regular moves in the arsenal of many wrestlers. The DDT, Leg Drop and Sleeperhold are just a few examples of the many moves that have been phased out from signature status in the vast majority of cases. In Puro, it's a different story - one that mainly comes down to a wrestler "retiring" a signature move. In the case of Keiji Mutoh, he gave up using the Moonsault on a regular basis because it was knackering his knees. As a result, the move became fair game for others to use. The same goes for Jushin Liger and the SSP, presumably for similar reasons as Mutoh. Both still use the move on an occasional basis, but the moves have become practically world known and can be seen used regulary in pretty much every promotion. Thoughts?

Brock Lesnar comes to mind... Given the right opponents, he could usually have stellar matches that involved him performing some incredible power moves. He even squeezed a series of good matches out of Big Show (during Show's 2002-2008 decline) in 2003 that saw Brock powerbomb, superplex and F5 Show! Lesnar's matches with some of the smaller guys like Mysterio, served to showcase his true powerhouse. This stuff, along with his impressive physique surely makes him a contender in this topic.

I'll give it a shot... 1. DDP - their US title matches were actually pretty good, some nice mid-card stuff. 2. Brother Ray - the brief 2007 feud with Team 3D resulted in some of The Steiners' best matches in years. 2. Brother D'Von - " " 4. Goldberg - had some pretty competitive matches and if I recall correctly - Steiner actually beat Goldberg by TKO. 5. Booker T - their program in 2000 was one of the only things worth watching in WCW at the time. Randy Savage 1. Ricky Steamboat - could it be anyone else? 2. Ric Flair - they always had really solid matches. 3. Jake Roberts - excellent match psychology and very competitive. 4. Hulk Hogan - for the sheer amount of audience investment in their matches 5. Ultimate Warrior - the storytelling in their Wrestlemania match was among the best the WWF had seen at that point.

double post

NWA World Champion: Ric Flair WWF World Champion: Hulk Hogan Intercontinential Champion: Tito Santana US Champion: Blackjack Mulligan NWA/ WCW World Tag Champs: The Rock'n'Roll Express NWA/ WCW World TV Champion: Lord Steven Regal AJPW Triple Crown: Mitsuharu Misawa IWGP Heavyweight Championship: Keiji Mutoh/The Great Muta WWF World Tag Champs: Unsure, the WWF/E's tag team division has always been filled with regular periods of decline even amongst some of the best tag team wrestlers of all time AWA World Title: Don't really know enough about the promotion, but Bockwinkel seems like a strong candidate.

Yeah it was a pretty forgettable angle... I guess WCW's method of damage control at the end was to just quietly discard the Hardcore Championship, just like they did with the TV Championship although that was under a different set of circumstances. When ECW folded, Rhino was both the TV and World Heavyweight champion. The WWF never reactivated the belts during Rhino's tenure with the company and he was allowed to keep them (the revived ECW's championship belt was a replica). When WWE eventually acquired all of ECW's tape library and copyrights, etc - the belts stayed with Rhino. So technically, Rhino went to other wrestling promotions with two championship belts that represent a brand owned by WWE.

It's probably true that Heyman was trying to get talent from AJPW to come over on loan, but I'd imagine that the best AJPW was willing to offer him was some of the rookie wrestlers on the roster. It's still common practice for many of the Puro promotions to send their newer talent abroad for a couple of years so they can become accustomed to different styles of wrestling - this is of course something that WWE could learn from. Anyway, there was no way that a promotion like ECW was going to persuade AJPW to part with any of it's aces for any amount of time. It would be like JCP asking WWF in 1986 to loan them Randy Savage or present day ROH asking WWE if they could have CM Punk back for a while!

I don't even think that Baba would have loaned ECW one of his biggest draws at that stage of ECW's existence...

Actually, Meng awarded the title to Barbarian on the Thunder before he left for the WWF. WCW then declared the title vacant and it was never seen again.

Well there was a substantial amount of buzz earlier this year when it was rumored that Sting was close to signing a contract with WWE. As we all know, it never came to fruition but Sting has said in interviews that he was very close to inking the deal. Wasn't it already public knowledge as far back as spring 1997 that Bret Hart was on his way out of the WWF and into WCW? If I recall correctly, McMahon had already released Bret a month or so prior to the MSJ and he was being kept on with a PPA until they could find someone to drop the title to. Also around this time WWF was looking to sign Kurt Angle to a contract, but the initial deal fell through and it was over a year before they managed to sign him. As for matches, well it's been debated for years whether Vader was supposed to win the WWF Championship from Shawn Michaels at Summerslam 1996. Some people claim that Michaels refused to lose the championship to Vader because he didn't seem him as "championship material", others claim that Vince McMahon simply decided it was too soon to strap Vader and aborted the original plans. Whatever the case, the WWF would have been a whole different place in 1996 had Vader been champion. The sad thing is, I doubt that it would have made much difference to the ratings - WCW was at the beginning of destroying the WWF's ratings and although a behemoth champion is intriguing enough for some to switch over to Raw, it wouldn't have been enough to divert the attention from the NWO angle. I think the award for largest amount of rumored matches has to go to Jim "Ultimate Warrior" Hellwig. First of all it was assumed multiple times that Warrior and Hogan would have a rematch in WWF - perhaps at the following years Wrestlemania, but Hogan didn't want any of that so Warrior was put into a programme with Rick Rude and Hogan feuded with the likes of Earthquake throughout 1990. Eventually it was decided to stick the belt on Sgt. Slaughter and Hogan got the Wrestlemania match. Warrior was then fired by the company and I'd imagine there was all sorts of rumors floating around that he was going to sign with WCW, etc. After all, WCW's biggest star - Ric Flair, had jumped ship to the WWF leaving WCW with a big empty spot on the roster. Sure they had Sting and the others, but they were missing someone with phenomenal drawing power that was still a hot commodity. I'd be very surprirsed if Warrior wasn't approached and offered a large (but not large enough) contract to sign with the company. When Warrior did eventually sign with WCW in 1998 (following two more stints with the WWF) he was immediately put into a programme with Hogan that resulted in a terrible match between the two at BATB which existed only so Hogan could get the win back. There were all sorts of rumors going round about Warrior having matches with Sting, Goldberg and even continuing the feud with Hogan, but it never panned out.

I'm in agreement with Coffey. What makes wrestling work for me is when it allows me to suspend my disbelief. I'm also drawn to emotion, good selling and storytelling. When I watch championship matches between heavyweights, I don't like them to be laden with rest holds and playing too much to the crowd. I like there to be a good level of psychology. Rock and Austin did this really well in all of their matches, the crowd was behind both of them and just a simple expression from either one would provoke a response. I do enjoy Luchadores and Cruiserweight wrestling. I'm not so into TNA's X division anymore, instead I enjoy the likes of Dragon Gate, where its about innovation and redefining the sport with fast paced and athletic wrestling. ROH is also really good for storytelling and emotion, when Kenta Kobashi fought with Samoa Joe, they literally did nothing but chop, kick and smash each other for the majority of the match. But what made this good was the crowd reaction. They both sold each others moves wonderfully and the psychology about being the 'better man' and trying to outdo each other in the power game was what made it such a special match. I was able to suspend my disbelief because it actually looked like they really beat the crap out of each other. You don't see a lot of good storytelling, wrestling and psychology in WWE anymore and thats one of the reasons I don't really enjoy the product. I'm not one of those people who thinks "Oh the attitude era was the best thing ever", rather, i'm one of those people that misses the days when a big match over a title really meant something and when performers were so evenly matched it was hard to predict a clear winner.

Taz in 2000, pretty much says it all. Taz went from being a killer in ECW to jobbing to everyone in the WWF. Consider how promising Taz(z)'s WWF career started, he debuted at the 2000 RR, defeating the undefeated Kurt Angle by submission no less. He was then allowed to go over and take the ECW championship belt from Mike Awesome, before returning to defend it in the WWF. Instead, Tazz was squashed by Triple H in a champion vs champion match, Tazz then dropped the belt to Tommy Dreamer and returned to the WWF, where he was thrown into the messy hardcore division and did nothing worth note until 2002, where he briefly held the tag titles with Spike Dudley...Now Taz, who went from wrestler to acclaimed commentator works for TNA, a rumored result of Vince McMahon's control freak nature over the headset.

I really dislike this whole 'high brow/low brow' nonsense. Yes, wrestling could be classed as low brow entertainment, but then you could argue that any sport or 'sports entertainment' could be classed as 'low brow'. Think of all the showboating built around professional boxing, including promos, video packages, weigh in confrontations and brawls and anything else. Just because its a competitive sport, doesn't take away from the fact thats got a major entertainment factor to it. Vince McMahon apparently has an obsession with reforming his product into 'high brow' entertainment. I just don't get why people see professional wrestling as a lower form of culture? No longer is it associated with traveling carnivals and an overly secretive inner circle dedicated to preserving kayfabe. Professional wrestlers are as much role models (those who don't screw up by taking shortcuts) as any other athlete. They are instantly recognisable people, whereas, in the old days wrestlers would rarely be recognised outside of the squared circle. Most of the acting parts of wrestling (promos, interviews, etc) are laughable, but thats to be expected because wrestlers don't all go through drama school, therefore they are usually full of overly hammy, and sometimes nonsensical remarks.

Although the right guy won the show, I really don't think his proper debut will be met with much fanfare. I'm hoping WWE send him to FCW for at least 6 months to give him some fine tuning. He did sell the Stunner really well last night, but the real question is, can he wrestle a full 10 minute match without botching too much?

I do agree with this, however it should be noted that several teams were coming up with newer spots in tag team matches. Just look at the amount of teams in ECW during the mid 90's who were known for their unique spots. The Eliminators, Sabu and Rob Van Dam, The FBI, The Dudley's and The BWO are just a few teams that come to mind when you think of "better and more varied double team spots". Comparing them to the Steiner's however, PG-13 probably win in the spot department. In the early 90's some of the stuff the Steiner's were doing was stuff nobody had ever seen, however they failed to progress from that and thats what PG-13 did right, they modernised their repotoire and kept it fresh.

I've always been impressed with Vader's level of athletisism, despite being somewhere between 350 and 450lbs for most of his career. Given the right opponent, Vader will always sell like a pro. I agree with what Dr Reverend Victator said about Vader not being a fit for what WWF intended. As others have mentioned, Vader is an extremely stiff worker and while his work is perfect for strong style (and very respected), a lot of the WWF guys took offence to it, namely the Clique. I think if WWF kept Vader out of the World Title picture, until a worker who could compliment his style was champion (Undertaker, Bret Hart, Sycho Sid), then his run might have been a success. Although none of this would have happened due to the Clique's influence backstage.