Ricky Jackson

As far as the MSG series goes (from Cawthon's site): 3/16 86 4/22 86 (no DQ) 5/19 86 (Sammartino ref), which leads to... 6/14 86 Savage/Adonis vs Santana/Bruno 7/12 86 rematch in cage I haven't seen all of these matches, but of the ones I have they are IIRC pretty good and really heated. They also wrestled at Boston Garden on 1/11 86, 2/8 86 (the title change I'm sure you've seen before), and 3/8 86. Of these, I've only seen the title change. In Philly, there was this unique match on 12/7 85: Santana/Tony Atlas vs Savage/Ventura. They wrestled in singles on 3/7 86, 5/10 86, and 5/31 (no DQ). I've never seen any of these matches and don't know what is out there on tape. As for other matches between the two, I don't know of any others off the top of my head, but there is probably some MLG stuff out there.

Like cm funk and Jerry, I'm mostly interested in the historical stuff. I still follow the current scene, mostly passively through online sites and boards because it's easy to get a quick update, but I haven't watched any fed regularly in a couple of years, and I haven't been a "hardcore" fan (at least in my eyes) since about 2001 or so. I am "hardcore" when it comes to reading about wrestling history, and frequently watch old matches, but not really in any substantial volume. I'm pretty much a recovering WWE/WWF junkie going back to the 80s (with Stampede, ECW, WCW, and AWA in the mix through the years), but these days I'm mostly interested in learning about the territories I missed out on. But I've barely scratced the surface when it comes to watching Crockett, Georgia, World Class, Memphis, Portland, etc., let alone Japan or Mexico. Someday maybe. Anyway, I guess of the options provided I enjoy the wrestler discussion the most, followed by the behind the scenes stuff. This is a really cool board, the only one I post on, and my day isn't complete without at least a couple visits. I agree with Jerry that this a unique board and totally different than the usuall IWC (I loathe that term) nonsense. (I'm getting older and demand my wrestling talk be dignified, damn it!!!) Sure, some of the topics don't interest me, but all in all this is a fun place to spend a few minutes here and there. Keep it up, whoever you are.

Lately, I've really been into late-70s/early-80s Greg Valentine. Some of the best heel facials ever (asshole smirk), always sadistically working on the leg, and a perfect foil for a squeaky clean babyface like a Backlund, Santana, Steamboat, etc. Not the best heel ever or anything, but definitely someone you "loved to hate". I agree with many who have already been mentioned like Savage, Austin, Roberts, Raven, Rude. Off the top of my head I would add pre-86 Piper, Ole Anderson, and for sentimental reasons (but also because I truly hated him when I was 9 years old) Makhan Singh.

Honestly, this could be a lot of fun. Although, wouldn't a match involving Kermit break Muppet kayfabe for the live audience?

Cheers to Mark after years of ups and downs. Funny that his first world title win comes on a night when Cena wins his 10th. (or is it more?) That kind of sums up the year for WWE: we'll try a few new things, but in the end it's back to business as usual.

For those who missed this link from Bryan's daily update. Some (bitter) ex-WWE employee has a bit too much free time on their hands. Cranky Vince

Dusty Rhodes: For years all I thought of when I heard his name was poka dots and bad commentary. Because of timing and geography, I missed his glory days completely and only knew of late-80s/90s Dusty. I think it was the Superstar Graham WWE doc that first opened my eyes to his greatness, and subsequent viewing of his WWE dvd and YouTube made me a big fan. He's one of my all time faves now. On the other hand... RVD: Um, yeah. Why did I love this guy again? I don't remember. Being young and a blind ECW mark certainly helped. I'm not saying I "hate" the guy, or that I don't enjoy some of his work. I just saw one of his 1996 matches with Sabu not too long ago (the one where they both do stretcher jobs) and thought it was pretty good. But for the most part I could care less if I ever see him wrestle again.

From what I remember, and I might be totally wrong about this, Pro Westling Plus was only on TSN sporadically and always in different time slots, similar to the AWA show. It seems to me it was a hard show to follow regularly, although I do remember watching it quite a bit around 1986-87. Anyway, and this is based on 25 year old memories, the promotions I remember being featured on the show for sure were WCCW, Stampede, Florida, and maybe Memphis. I'm sure there were many others, but I don't remember Crockett. I can remember Luger being featured, but I'm pretty sure it was while he was still in Florida. Somebody else out there probably has much better info on the subject than I do. As for Worldwide, I'm almost 100% sure it wasn't available in Calgary during the 80s, but I don't know about the rest of Canada...maybe in the east?. Of course, the Apter mags (and non-Apter mags) were widely available, so us Canadians could follow Crockett that way. Quite right about Pro Wrestling Plus. As for the Apter mags (and others), there were loads of them in magazine stores and grocery stores but I got the feeling I was the only one reading them of any consistency. Among my peers, I always seemed to be the only one who had any idea about non WWF wrestling and didn't dismiss it out of hand. I found it hard to understand, WWF programming at the time was pretty much all squash matches, so any other shows would have at least more potential for something interesting happening. As late as 1997, when the NWO was in full bloom, I remember having a conversation with fellow wrestling fans (some of whom were older than me) and they were completely ignorant of any non-WWF wrestling before the NWO, even with it having been on TSN since early 91, and their views were completely canalized by WWF history. Yeah, the mags were everywhere, and I had my dad buy me a ton of them, but I don't remember my friends having any. In the 80s, it seemed like everybody my age (8-11, and even a few girls!) had at least a passing interest in wrestling, especially WWF because it was so ubiquitous, but also Stampede as it aired back to back with WWF on Saturday afternoons. I even knew a few AWA fans. WCW fans? In the early 90s my best friend and I watched it on TBS and followed in the mags, but overall I would agree that it seemed like most Canadian wrestling fans had little or no awareness of WCW pre-Monday Night Wars. Of course, wrestling being extremely uncool prior to 1997 didn't help. Most wrestling fans I knew in the late 90s were people who had loved it as kids in the 80s but had essentially missed the 1991-1997 era completely.

From what I remember, and I might be totally wrong about this, Pro Westling Plus was only on TSN sporadically and always in different time slots, similar to the AWA show. It seems to me it was a hard show to follow regularly, although I do remember watching it quite a bit around 1986-87. Anyway, and this is based on 25 year old memories, the promotions I remember being featured on the show for sure were WCCW, Stampede, Florida, and maybe Memphis. I'm sure there were many others, but I don't remember Crockett. I can remember Luger being featured, but I'm pretty sure it was while he was still in Florida. Somebody else out there probably has much better info on the subject than I do. As for Worldwide, I'm almost 100% sure it wasn't available in Calgary during the 80s, but I don't know about the rest of Canada...maybe in the east?. Of course, the Apter mags (and non-Apter mags) were widely available, so us Canadians could follow Crockett that way.

WCW had pretty good TV penetration in Canada by 1997. I'm not sure of the exact date, but Nitro was on TSN prior to Hart signing. WCW was popular with wrestling fans in Canada during the Monday Night Wars period, partly because of the presence of the ex-WWF guys like Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash, but also for the same reasons it was popular in the USA: NWO, cruiserweights, Goldberg, etc. TBS was common in Canada from about 1991 or so, as was WCW magazine and the action figures of the early 90s. WWF was always more important for fans because it hit big in Canada in the 80s while Crockett/early WCW was non-existant on TV (AWA was on TSN). I'd wager that most fans in attendance at Mania 18 were aware of Hogan's WCW years. You also have to factor in Hogan's "special" connection with the Toronto fans (and Canadian fans in general) dating back to the 80's. The evening served as a sort of celebration for a returning hero, as Hogan had not preformed live in Canada, I think, in about ten years or so.

For me, everything from Punk's first promo through the Raw after MITB was great and it did truly feel like we were seeing something "different" or "new" from WWE. When Punk came out at the end of the following Raw, my immediate gut response was "shit, they've ruined it by making it just another angle", but I was still intrigued and kept watching. (I've run hot and cold with WWE for years now, mostly cold since early 2009, and I had pretty much stopped watching entirely prior to the Greatest Promo Ever) Summerslam was a pretty good show, but everything since then has just sapped my interest completely: the bad Nash promos, the rushed Punk-HHH match, etc. I missed Raw last night for the first time since this all started and I don't plan on watching next week. It seems like the call has been made to return to the safe, conservative, predictable booking that has prevented me from fully enjoying the WWE for quite a long time now. I'll probably tune in for the build to Survivor Series, and I'll be around for the build to Mania, and will of course follow everything online. But as far as watching Raw every week goes, I think I'm "off" WWE again. It was fun while it lasted.

Don't you dare delete a thread with such an awesome title.

So...did HHH officially announce the end of brand extension during his opening promo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Meltzer Meltzer? I thought he died a few years back after he went crazy on an airplane, stormed the cockpit, and was forcibly subdued by some passengers. (I also love how his birthdate was changed to 1959 a few months ago for some reason and nobody has bothered to correct it)

The quality is absolutely horrible and I don't know where part 1 is, but on the positive side it's a decent match and the commentary by McMahon and Heenan is gold. Apparently it aired on Prime Time Wrestling and was on the tape 1992 Year in Review. I'm not sure if I had ever seen the match before either, maybe just clips. As for Hart winning the title from Flair, all I know for sure is that as a teenage Hitman mark living in Calgary it was pretty cool opening the sports section of the Herald the next day and learning about the switch that way. (the only time I can recall the Herald reporting on wrestling--complete with a photo of the match no less--which was usually the exclusive domain of Calgary's other daily, the Sun)

Mania III entered mythic status long ago, probably more so than any other WWE show. Mania I, in the grand scheme of things, is likely the most important event ever. (If you want to be culturally relevant, those two are really just North America specific and wouldn't mean much at all to Japanese or Mexican wrestling fans, who have their own "most historic nights")

Just saw this last night, and I thought I'd share it here. (although most in these parts have probably seen it, and I can't possibly do it justice, but it's so freaking hilarious) It's from the Flair shoot interview. Basically Flair is telling a story about how cool Harley Race was. As an example he details a locker room discussion between a very young Curt Hennig and Race concerning an upcoming match between the two (I'm paraphrasing): Hennig (in a squeaky teen voice): "Um, Mr.Race, what do you want to do about the finish to our match?" Race: (takes a drag from a cigarette): "What's your finisher kid?" Hennig: "Um, an elbow off the top rope" Race: (takes another drag from a cigarette): "I'll move"

I'd have to go back and look at how Dave wrote it up, but I think the "taking credit for launching Birds vs VE's" was an item where Dave thought Gary was taking way too much credit. Perhaps my recollection is off, but I thought Dave contested Gary's claims on the he was behind that to the degree that Gary claimed he was. John Michael Hayes has gone on record saying that Gary Hart was the lynchpin for the boom of World Class and Ken Mantell was the guy who came in behind him. To give a sports analogy, Gary was Tommy Prothro to Mantell's Chuck Knox & Don Coryell Nice reference. I like to think I know a thing or two about NFL history, but I admit I had to google Prothro's name. I guess if I had been a fan during those years I would have recognized the name. Maybe like a modern fan not knowing who Buddy Ryan or Jerry Glanville were? Hart's own NFL head coach comparison in the book was he was Jimmy Johnson to Mantell's Barry Switzer. I think I could agree with the Switzer/Mantell part, but I'm not sure if Hart's booking run in Dallas was the equivalent of 2 Super Bowl wins. But me discussing Hart's merits is like me trying to discuss the merits of someone like Coryell, they were before my time as a fan. Anyway, back to wrestling...

Based solely on finishing Gary Hart's book literally 10 minutes ago, I think I could make a pretty good case for his inclusion: Manager for countless main event, money-drawing talents in various promotions from the 60s through the 80s. Memorable and entertaining character. Successful booker in Georgia and (mostly) Texas for several years. Responsible for developing many wrestlers into main eventers and coming up with/being involved in many memorable angles that drew money. Successful TV producer... I'm no expert on his work. I only know of him from YouTube, a few tapes here and there, and the old Apter mags, as he was not part of the TV wrestling I watched in Calgary as a kid during the 80s, and was pretty much gone from the scene by 1990. But from what I have seen I think he was an exceptional promo guy and excellent at getting over characters and feuds. I'm actually kind of surprised he's not already in, but I guess the strikes against him are not having a run in some major areas, like New York, St. Louis, etc, being gone from the scene for so long, and usually being only a manager in the areas he did work. However, just to use an example, and not to rile anybody up because I'm a fan of the guy, but if someone like Heyman is in, I think Hart (who I would say was more successful than Heyman, but not as influential) should also be in. Thoughts?

I was going to say that I think they should go with Cena vs Del Rio for the next two PPVs and save Punk/Cena III for Survivor Series and the NYC crowd. But I just checked, and they are running a second October show again, this time Vengeance on Oct 23. (HIAC gets a whopping 2 week build, and Vengeance 3 weeks. This could be where things indeed go off the rails booking wise.) That scheduling seems screwy--Vengeance seems doomed to a really low buy # sandwiched between HIAC and SS. Maybe they'll feel the need to run Punk/Cena III for that show in order to give it a hook. But who knows, maybe there are no plans for Punk/Cena III at all. (Even though a heated MSG would be the perfect place for it)

Not to be too snarky, but if that`s the best we can expect from Nash in 2011, it`s probably best for everyone concerned if he quickly takes a bad step, blows a quad, and disappears. He just seemed lost and totally out of touch on the mic tonight. Maybe he just needs to get his "sea legs" back or something. Still, I think anything more than an odd comeo here and there would be too much Nash at this stage in the game. Still a good angle, but things like bad Nash promos and giving Steph more and more screen time are tempting the wrestlecrap gods.

In my previous post I obviously meant to write "Surprise appearance by Kevin Nash tomorrow night?" Yeah, that's it.

A friend of mine just brought this up, so I thought I`d throw it out here: Surprise appearance by the Rock tomorrow night? I haven't heard anybody mention it, but it would make sense after they used his promo on Raw last Monday. Could be a way to screw Cena out of the belt without having to resort to the predictable HHH rout (although their match at Mania is supposed to be for the title, so I guess kayfabe wise Rock would want Cena to win). I'm just hoping for anything but a clean Cena win...or a Punk/HHH alliance...or Del Rio cashing in the briefcase...

Oh well, at least we`ll always have Chicago.

Forget the Punk angle, Cena leading the Gay Wave against "the Christian" might be the key to a big money heel turn.