WingedEagle

What Sabu match approaches anything among Toyota's top couple dozen matches? Haven't found it yet. Looking back on a lot of ECW and indy stuff from that era I've found Sabu's matches have held up worse than almost anyone. Set up a table, break the table, meander about for a while until setting up the next table. Rinse and repeat, maybe swapping out the table for another object.

You'd think something that big emanating from the actual boardroom would get picked up in the financial press as well.

What are Liger's best matches as a heel other than the NOAH feud?

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. So? One is a great peak and the other is a down period for the guy. It just happens to be at different ends of their careers. Why not treat them the same? Sarcasm or you believe this? A question. One guy got great earlier and then when his athletics failed him had a down period. The other took longer to get great, but once they did they stayed great until they retired. What is wrong with treating a slow starter to a slow finisher? Because they are not remotely the same thing.

PUMPED.

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. So? One is a great peak and the other is a down period for the guy. It just happens to be at different ends of their careers. Why not treat them the same? Sarcasm or you believe this?

Very excited.

Do we know ye tif Shane is sticking around beyond Mania?

Not sure I understand the hate for the piledriver on the floor. Let's say he did it in every match in the 70s. If it never finished anyone, why the uproar? Seems like if it had been established as a move of death and regarded as such consistently, then presenting it as a random high spot makes all the sense in the world. But otherwise why are we choosing how he should finish a match?

Hopefully not an issue.

Is there anything to prevent someone from submitting multiple ballots?

That makes sense and I appreciate that you're sticking to your formula. Rey is definitely a great example of that as when looking at his specific qualities I find a whole lot more to like than the final output. Yes, but I'm not claiming "objectivity" because I still found ways to low ball him. I don't think his great matches are as great as other people do. I hate his offense. etc. etc. The personal dislike absolutely factors into things, but even beyond that Rey can post some impressive things that are pretty undeniable even to a hater. Which is kind of the definition of "greatness" in my view. That even a hater has to give you your due. But since not everyone has been thinking like that, I don't see why Dylan should necessarily have to do the same with Jumbo, especially if he sees the entire process as being entirely subjective. I'm sure everyone recognizes that subjectivity plays a large part in their rankings. Most probably make an effort to be objective about the process, but at the end of the day it comes down to objectively organizing and framing subjective evaluations. There may be wrestlers I don't want to watch at this point in my life, but if I sat down and forced myself to do so and enjoyed the matches, that counts for something and if the matches are good enough to rank the participant as a top 100 all timer, so be it. If I'm so averse to a wrestler that the matches are the shits and really not enjoyable then they're probably not one of the best ever in my eyes.

That makes sense and I appreciate that you're sticking to your formula. Rey is definitely a great example of that as when looking at his specific qualities I find a whole lot more to like than the final output.

Ha! That is quite the error on my part. I was referring to Mysterio and will edit the original post. Bryan quite a capable singles hitter and slugger. Mysterio never did too much for me. And yes, baseball is responsible for many terrible things.

I know I'm in the minority but don't view Mysterio's WWE run as part of any kind of GWE case. Almost always good, but he became a straight singles & doubles hitter. Fully recognize that part of that is due to how and where on the card he was used, and while I don't doubt that given the opportunity he could've done more, the fact is that's what he delivered for me. He'll absolutely rank and understand him coming up in these discussions, but pretty far from a top of the ballot guy for me. Note: revised because as originally constructed pre-gym and coffee this post was as ambiguous as could be.

Haven't seen a ton of him domestically without the belt, but it didn't look to be quite that skewed when he worked Japan from what I recall. Will certainly check out the thread.

I'd agree, but then what do you do with his '90 or '91? Just absurd. In under 2 years he had vs. Misawa 6/90 vs. Misawa 9/90 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 9/90 6-man classic 10/90 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 12/90 6-man 1/91 6-man classic 4/91 vs. Kawada 4/91 vs. Kobashi 5/91 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 9/91 6-man classic 10/91 vs. Kawada 10/91 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 11/91 vs. Kawada 1/92 vs. Kobashi 2/92 vs. Misawa 4/92 Carnival 6-man classic 5/92 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 6/92 That's cutting off the run at an even 2 years from the first Misawa match, and leaving off a few. And arguably leaving off the biggest decade of his career. Christ.

What are the must-see matches here? Loved him against Baba, Jumbo, Martel and liked what I saw against Kerry and Iceman Parsons. Do I need to sit through the 60 minute lawler match? This guy bumped too well and was so outrageous for someone his size to not rank.

So for the longest stretch I knew that Jumbo would slot in somewhere behind Misawa, Kobashi & Kawada. Well I've been rewatching a lot of early 90s All Japan as well as some 80s Jumbo and don't see him behind them quite so clearly at all. Older, grumpy heel Jumbo is so much better in the role than even Tenryu and an absolute joy who didn't really lose any of his athleticism until the Hepatitis brought him down. If anything, he was even more of the total package near the end. Arguably one of the older primes you'll find and never looked out of place with the kids. No clue now he'll end up faring against Baba's best, but that is a big question for me in the weeks ahead. Could easily talk myself into ranking him ahead or behind any of them.

Takayama should be right up Parv's alley.

Given the copious notes the announcers have, why not prompt them to clear the monitors off-camera before the spot?

Never was before I watched all of this over. The guy comes off as such a selfish, uncooperative shit throughout. Not trolling, but that sounds like...a heel? I feel awful for everything Bret had to go through between Owen, the concussions, stroke & recovery and undoubtedly a ton of family issues. But grown up me just isn't bothered by someone in wrestling acting like a heel, whether work, shoot or a mix, nor by someone with a multi-million dollar contract being forced to accept that money a couple doors down the road because his boss fucked him with on the job. We watched it happen on PPV, but don't people who make both more or less money sometimes find the locks changed or desk cleared when they go to work? This was nearly unprecedented in wrestling, but it still amazes me how a creative decision & office politics generate such strong feelings from people who weren't involved this far down the road.

On first impression this is well ahead of War Games. Love the Rumble but no clue how you'd rank it, although I tend to view that a singular Flair performance rather than any kind of multi-man outing.

So the '84 Gauntlet match. I also watched it for the first time this weekend and went in knowing it finished #1 on the New Japan poll and was touted as a GOAT match candidate by many. It still somehow managed to exceed expectations. Thoughts on a few of my favorite segments. Fujinami vs. Kobayashi -- Maybe the best Kobayashi has looked thus far, working a killer pace before going down and kicking off the highlight story of the match by beginning to work on Fujinami's arm and hand. Not to mention an incredibly hot finish to this opening. Fujinami vs. Teranishi -- This is no worse than a 4.5 star affair and MOTYC on its own. I've seen nothing of Teranishi outside of his singles match with Fujinami earlier on the set and this, but to hell with reason -- this man belongs on a list of the 100 greatest ever. Just some of the most vicious, focused limb work I've seen. I was blown away at just how incredibly this piece was. Fujinami has had a few flash pins on the set that didn't seem proper for him from a booking perspective, but this one made sense and was a key piece of storytelling in a damn near perfect match. This whole thing is too long to go back and watch all that often, but I could watch this part every day. I loved it that much. Fujinami vs. Yatsu -- Speaking of top notch booking, not to mention execution, we have the finish here. Not to mention more great heeling on the hand. This gauntlet is one of the strongest heel performances I've ever seen in Japan. Athleticism and sport take a backseat to hate. The collective brilliance throughout this match cannot be understated. Takada's brief appearance was fiery and let him shine before being disposed of, while Yatsu got to again look like an absolutely devestating enforcer. Kimura's turn with Yatsu felt a little brief and was probably the weakest part of the match. Higo Fucking Hamaguchi. Incredible stalling. Incredible chickenshit heel refusing to engage. Throw a slap and bail outside. Kicking out of a piledriver at a 1 count. Killer headbutts. He meets his match with Fujiwara who isn't about to put up with those antics and eliminates both of them as he refuses to let Higo escape. Is he always such a phenomenal heel? If it continues at all along these lines he's someone who's stock will go see a marked increase with me. Inoki vs. Choshu wasn't the all out war that you want based on the match up to this point, but I get why it was laid out in this fashion and with that finish. Just an absolutely remarkable match that flew by and had a ridiculous number of high points. What I'm unclear on is just how high to rank something like this. It feels odd and a bit unfair to compare these 10 wrestlers doing their thing in individual segments Flair/Steamboat or the best of the All Japan crew in a singles or tag outing. Absolutely no idea how to weigh them side by side, but regardless, this is some of the best wrestling you will find anywhere. Highest possible recommendation for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

Parv, other than the Finlay brawl, what other Regal matches do you have rated 4.5+?