WingedEagle

I'm pretty sure on the last AJ Excite show I praised Hase in his match vs. Akiyama for literally doing push ups while he was in a leg-lock. A mat-purist like OJ is gonna think that stuff is all kinds of goofy. A philistine like me though? To me that's just doing a great job of keeping everyone engaged and awake during the mat stuff. Like so much of that rote NJ mat stuff is so fucking boring to me, and Hase is the one guy who will pull out tricks to keep me entertained. I don't care if he's balancing skittles on his nose and clapping like a seal while juggling fire, it's more interesting than a headlock on its own. I don't really like matwork that is cutesy or intricate or anything like that. I like watching a guy work an arm or a leg, but anything more complex is above my level of understanding of these things. Picture a fairly bright 9-year old and that's probably about my level of watching pro wrestling to be honest. I mean part of the reason I'm so high on Jack Brisco isn't cos he does anything fly on the mat, it's cos he waves his arms like a lunatic when he's selling a basic hold. And also because his matches have pretty solid A-B-C psychology insomuch as you'll get the same bodypart worked over. Anyway, I think it's interesting to consider the different ways people react to the same stuff. As I've said I respect the way OJ watches stuff, but I can't ever bring myself to care more about matwork than 1. "did this stop me falling asleep?", 2. "is there some sort of narrative throughline to what is being done?" (which is no more complex than looking for, move A: arm, move B: arm, move C: arm) and 3. "okay, when are they gonna ramp up into doing some throws now", which will kick in around the 8 or 9 minute mark, possibly a bit later if I know they are going long. Yeah, what he said. I also think there's a pretty wide gulf between these various approaches on the mat. You have OJ apparently looking for a pure, amateur approach. That's fine for some, but not something I have any interest in seeing more than in passing. Its why my mileage on shoot style varies so greatly. I may be able to recognize the skill involved but appreciating talent is very different from finding the output worthwhile. On the other end of the spectrum you have some very cooperative matwork in lucha where it literally feels as though they're dancing in the sense that one is leading and the other following. It personally removes all sense of competition and struggle much as the shoot stuff is devoid of the entertainment. And in the middle you have twisting fingers on a wristlock, stomping feet and pulling back on a leglock and small, active signals that someone is working to hurt their opponent and keep you engaged. It doesn't require much movement or even athleticism. But it does require activity. Probably a bit of understanding how to get a reaction as well, but I'm not concerned with the recipe if the meal tastes great. Its not for everyone, but this type of matwork dichotomy has become clearer and clearer the more I've watched. When I started watching older footage there was a point where I absolutely dreaded extended matwork sequences. I truly look forward to it now, when done the right way.

Swearengen for President.

Damn, I would've easily swapped them into All Japan's tag scene for Gordy & Doc. Can't imagine any world in which a Steiner pulls off a singles match like those Doc did against the big 3, but in tags I think they'd have blown the MVC out of the water.

I've got the entire NWA '89 run on disc just itching for me to dig into it. Plan was to finish the Horsemen set and then go to '89 to stay chronological, but we know what happens to plans. Haven't watched any singles Rick in forever. Like wrestling generations forever. All I recall are some tag highlights with the New Japan boys, Doom, Nasties, and the Sting/Luger Superbrawl out. All solid affairs but nothing that would've made me think of him on a GWE level. While I doubt it happens by deadline I'm looking forward to refreshing things here.

While I knew it wasn't, the clip sounded like something I'd expect to hear from an SNL alumni movie. Great stuff. That South Park bit midway through needs some editing though -- so long Appreciated the love for Kobashi/Akiyama here. The Dome match gets most of the attention, and while I can see arguing for both, this was a sneaky under the radar rivalry that produced big matches over a pretty long period.

I'm not a Rey guy so not much of a shock here, but Eddy will certainly place higher. I binged a bunch of random WCW this weekend and was blown away by just how strongly I preferred Guerrero in WCW as opposed to WWE. The WWE run has Brock, JBL at Judgment Day and the Rey Smackdown match. I don't think he has a single other match in the company I'd take over what he did against Malenko, Jericho, Benoit and others in WCW. While his character work was miles ahead on Smackdown, he was so much smoother and wrestling with a purpose in WCW, particularly as a heel. I'm guessing part of that had to with the car accident and bulking up, as he was much more springy and had a real slithery style at Turner, but cannot believe how strongly it stood out.

Despite bumping the thread to see what folks had been thinking, I hadn't really started to consider Tanahashi relative to others. After merely skimming the list of nominees top 25 feels like a floor with a ceiling much higher. There aren't too many wrestlers with a longer list of great matches. The top of my list is looking oh so incredibly unAmerican.

So that wasn't terrible. Blood! Yay?

Probably quite a bit, but a few things stand out. 1) Action: I like my wrestling to have lots of activity. My favorite wrestling has always been late 80s/90s All Japan. If I were to list my all time favorite matches (coming soon - maybe), this era would produce more than that of any other promotion. But that doesn't mean its the only way to provide bell to bell action. I'll watch Ric Flair or Dick Murdoch work a headlock for minutes on end, as long as they're active. Wrench the hold, grind a forearm, tap a foot to keep the blood flowing. Do something that holds my attention and forces me to engage and take note of the activity. A hammerlock can be problematic to some, but I'll happily watch it the proponent is throwing knees at the arm or back, angling for position and the recipient comes up selling the arm as a reward for my investment. On the other hand, just because its a headlock, wristlock, hammerock, scorpion or some other hold applied for a stretch does not on the surface make it acceptable. If this kind of matwork reaches a stalemate where there's not any effort to secure, break or improve a hold (yes, all eyes on you New Japan) then my attention will be lost. The one big outlier her is lucha. Big fan of the bloody brawls and there are notable exceptions to this next statement, but a lot of the highly touted mat workers don't measure up very well for me. There is no doubt that they pull off creative and intricate matwork that is not at all laying around filling up the tank, but its a bit too cirque du soleil for me. Just takes cooperative to a new level. But what about juniors lying around waiting to take a big move off the top, you ask? Yeah, that works. I can buy that the accumulation of damage leaves someone in position to take a big move without defending themselves. But a lot of lucha leaves me asking why a wrestler lets his opponent get away with as much as he does on the mat. More to come!

If its not brought up by the announcers or made an explicit focus, such as working a limb for an extended period, why would we go the choose your own adventure route and read things into a match? If its really that subtle I don't see how one can say they're picking up on the actual storytelling. One thing I've realized while watching for GWE is just how big an impact announcing, and in the case of foreign announcing, can have on a match. Right or wrong it will color what you see in the ring to varying degrees. When watching matches in a foreign language I'll to some extent rely on prior matches I may have seen and the "big" expressiveness, if you will, of the performers. But I think it requires a pretty big leap of faith and creativity to look for fine print.

Very possibly the Miz. It seems as though a lot of folks are enjoying his current character and use. Not here. Always an opportunity to mute and check things out online or go ask the wife how the Bachelor is this week.

I assure you Shane McMahon does not slip in a USB with his audio before walking out. The entire show is a production and in order for it to run smoothly those in charge of presenting it need to know when to cue up certain audio/video. That's not a part of the show that is being improvised.

Production had to have known to have Michaels's music ready.

Pretty incredible. Just such an odd, persistent mistake.

How come the dates listed for many PPVs on the Network are off by a day? Watched some random WCW today, every one was off by a day. Checked out a few other WWF shows and similarly off by a day. Really odd.

Anyone watch the Brock/Harper match from the night before Roadblock? Haven't watched yet but hope to check it out.

This is basically what I'm weighing as I decide 1 vs. 2 for Kobashi. Gut says 1, head says 2. I think it might be a cool exercise to list them out. If you don't want to, I might have a go later. So for Kobashi, I wanted to break out 10 of his top singles performances as well as a top 10 in tags. Not looking to be in any way definitive here but ID if you like All Japan / NOAH you're likely on board with most of these classics. This was also framed to show just how long he stretched out elite performances as well as that they came against folks other than Misawa & Kawada (though they're obviously heavily represented). Also dropping in a "next 10" for both singles and tags as these lists are just as impressive. As would the next 10 or 20. Top 10 Singles: Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi 7/29/93 Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi 8/31/93 Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue 7/24/96 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 1/20/97 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/21/97 Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama 7/24/98 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/31/98 Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama 5/26/00 Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa 3/1/03 Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama 4/25/04 10 More Singles: Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi 9/4/91 Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi 10/23/93 Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi 9/3/94 Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue 7/24/95 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/25/95 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 6/11/99 Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshinari Ogawa 11/1/2003 Kenta Kobashi vs Takao Omori 4/15/00 Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama 7/10/04 Kenta Kobashi vs Minoru Suzuki, 1/8/05 Top 10 Tags & Multi-Man: Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen 7/15/89 Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi 10/19/90 Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi 4/20/91 Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi 5/22/95 Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs. Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat 5/25/92 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 6/1/93 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 12/3/93 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 5/21/94 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 6/9/95 Kobashi & Takayama vs Misawa & Akiyama, 12/2/07 Next 10 Tags & Multi-Man: Jumbo Tsuruta & Great Kabuki & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Akira Taue & Kenta Kobashi 5/26/90 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 6/5/92 Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa 7/2/93 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 10/15/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa vs Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama 3/6/99 Kobashi & Akiyama vs. Hansen & Taue 12/99 Misawa & Kobashi vs Akiyama & Nagata, 2/17/02 Akiyama & Tenryu vs Kobashi & Shiozaki 4/24/05 Akiyama & Tenryu vs Kobashi & Taue 9/18/05 Kobashi & Kensuke Sasaki vs. Tenryu & Nakajima 2/11/06

Will look to do so tonight when I can look over some lists. What I think might be even more interesting is looking at the next 10 and seeing just how incredible they are as second tier performances.

This is basically what I'm weighing as I decide 1 vs. 2 for Kobashi. Gut says 1, head says 2.

You've got me thinking I should try my own rankings this way. We'll see if it happens as the deadline approaches.

Very different direction. The pros and cons are out there. Leaving her impact on the style aside, her highlights are too great to be discounted by the weaknesses. Now if you don't dig her big matches at all, well, you're not about to find any value in the matches that followed where she & co. pushed things and no one discussing Manami Toyota in 2016 is likely going to be persuaded too much in either direction.

Selling, logical progression of moves, moving to get into position for your opponent to hit a move on you, etc.... If I watch a wrestler and don't think to myself that "this doesn't make sense" or "why would he do that" then they are logical. How far does logical go though? Shouldn't most offensive moves actually finish someone? Where each promotion can essentially establish the rules of their own universe it would seem to take away quite a bit to only buy what's logical. Shouldn't every wrestler roll away from an opponent coming off the top? Once there are certain standards or "laws" with consequences then it would seem at that point we can react to occurrences in the ring that prove consistent or not. Sometimes those inconsistencies make for tremendous moments, such as kicking out of something near the finish that has previously been the death knell, or can be problematic where it happens too early. It just seems if we're really being logical then every match should end pretty quickly and just about everything a wrestler does is illogical. Once he's taken any sustained punishment, how is he alive, much less able to mount a fiery comeback? Enjoy it! It doesn't have to be MMA, it just has to make sense within the context of wrestling. An irish whip is completely fine. Point is that there are different contexts, and those contexts can be changed. You have Jumbo piledriving Kawada on the floor on 4/20/91 and then later following with a spike piledriver on the floor, but that's still regarded as an all timer rather than a stop the presses moment because the piledriver wasn't a finisher that told everyone it was time to go home. Or a series of spectacular dives in countless lucha matches where one should be sufficient. Not suggesting there's a problem with an Irish whip, but where do you draw the line? Is it what's been put over as a finisher or a Mortal Kombat fatality that must end things, or when the viewer thinks its enough, conditioning and history be damned?

Angle comp makes a lot more sense than Sabu. Personally find that Toyota's highs vastly exceed Kurt's, but there are certainly similarities between their talents, flaws and styles. I still don't think Toyota gets quite enough credit for her style and doing what she did *when* she did it, as it really looked like an evolutionary jump compared to what was going on at the time.

Selling, logical progression of moves, moving to get into position for your opponent to hit a move on you, etc.... If I watch a wrestler and don't think to myself that "this doesn't make sense" or "why would he do that" then they are logical. How far does logical go though? Shouldn't most offensive moves actually finish someone? Where each promotion can essentially establish the rules of their own universe it would seem to take away quite a bit to only buy what's logical. Shouldn't every wrestler roll away from an opponent coming off the top? Once there are certain standards or "laws" with consequences then it would seem at that point we can react to occurrences in the ring that prove consistent or not. Sometimes those inconsistencies make for tremendous moments, such as kicking out of something near the finish that has previously been the death knell, or can be problematic where it happens too early. It just seems if we're really being logical then every match should end pretty quickly and just about everything a wrestler does is illogical. Once he's taken any sustained punishment, how is he alive, much less able to mount a fiery comeback? Enjoy it!

Absolutely loved this. Made sitting in traffic a total blats. Enjoyed the contrast of your lists and how you both responded to those differences. Favorite part was Parv saying the name "Low Ki" as though Ki himself was in the room and just farted. Hilarious.