dexstar

Been watching a solid number of 90s WCW PPVs on the Network lately, and I have one big question about this era of WCW If you are going to insist on Johnny B Badd opening like, every, PPV, couldn't you at least figure out a way to contain the Badd Blaster debris so that every dude for the next two hours doesn't end up covered in glitter?

I think the key, no matter the style, is integrity to the character. Austin was a great face not because he broke rules, but because his character (at least during the really hot period) had total integrity. You cheer for him because he straight up says "don't trust me", and then he backs that up. No compromise. I think that's a recurring thing for hot faces/heels in any era. A basic artistic principle in any genre really. I'm not sure the faces now are still "coarse" though - I'd argue Cena/Bryan are both pretty white bread. Bryan doesn't do anything "wrong" - he just appeals to the people and what's right. Cena never really heels. The Sheamus thing, while I get where you are coming from, I also don't view as a "heelish" action - Del Rio was a prick, he was a bully, and Sheamus turned it around on him in a humorous way. Not to go too-far off your topic, but what e-feds are still around? I used to do it in the mid-late 90s. Didn't know any kept it up. It's a fun hobby.

From personal experience, when I meet up with my friends who watch wrestling and we go to a show, we boo Cena despite nobody actually disliking him. It's just fun.

Watching that segment, I was definitely wondering if that could plant the seed for a legitimate "ring rush" from the lower bowl if Bryan wins the match, like a college hoops upset scene.

With 30 spots on the card for that Battle Royal, I want to see prop bets on what dudes don't even manage to make it into that. Gonna be some fierce position battles at the bottom of the pecking order the next couple weeks.

The implication that Jerry had something to do with the security situation is a really brilliant (but ultimately meaningless) detail added in by a usually abysmal commentary team.

I texted my brother at the very start that having Bryan talk instead of beat people was idiotic, and then that happened. Afterglow in effect, but that was the best longform non-wrestling segment on Raw in ages. On paper it sounds terrible but it came off amazing. HHH and Steph were incredible. Bryan didn't have to do anything goofy. Shooty but still coherent within the established storyline. And it's a moment for Bryan with no one else, it's his for the rest of his WWE career - just him, a huge arena of fans, against two people who are going to control WWE history forever. Will really be an iconic moment for him. Unless HHH pins him in :18. Which would be completely fucking amazing in a different way.

That segment is completely blowing up every segment of Twitter. Wow.

My favorite individual referee spot of all time is Charles Robinson making the quarter mile sprint down the aisle at WrestleMania 24 capped by his fluid dive and count of Undertaker's near fall. My favorite general referee spot is when they kick a guy's hand off the ropes to break a hold because they usually wind up so far for it, like it's a 60 yard field goal attempt. I also enjoy when they repeatedly ask guys not to use closed fists because it's so futile.

I feel like Bret's profanity laced, McMahon-shoving promo in the cage right before WrestleMania is as close as you can get to an exact genesis of what would become the Attitude Era. I was 13 and obsessed with WWF/WCW at that point and I still remember being completely shocked when Bret shoved Vince and started letting the curse words fly. That was a real shift in programming.

So .... has everyone noticed the WrestleMania commercial type thing that runs on the Network ... and prominently features CM Punk talking about 'Mania?

My point was more that he has been doing exactly what you described for while. Having said that you could argue Christian had a similar run a few years back. Hardy a year before that. Both in ECW. Rey in 09 had a very similar run. In some ways Cesaro's run feels like a bigger deal because his adaptability is incredible and those other guys - while great - are more formulaic in certain ways. But I don't think it's unusual for a WWE guy in this era to have an incredible run like this. What's unusual is the way Cesaro has done it. Word. That makes sense. Maybe my comment makes more sense if we focus on the crowd? I feel like Rey was already over during that run so, yes, great matches, but not a huge shift in crowd reaction and expectations. Didn't watch a lot of ECW due to circumstances (wooo WWE Network now) so I won't speak to Christian/Hardy. With Cesaro, right now over the let's arbitrarily cut it off at SummerSlam, he's been having tremendous matches but also getting more and more over with what seems like each passing week, to the point where my non-hardcore friends have been mentioning him. I hate to bring them into this because the worst message board trope is "I have blah blah friends who casually watch and they blah blah" because it's a vague point that can't be applied to anything meaningful, but I have noticed that here. The more I write the more I realize the disconnect that this thread is looking mostly at pure match quality and I'm talking about quality+pops so I'm not really arguing anything relevant, and I'll leave it at this Cesaro Rules.

For you guys ... I'm thinking of people more like me who weren't catching his non-Raw performances on the regular. Also, I could be completely and totally wrong. Not afraid to take that fall.

Uh, not really. They've been taping NXT from Full Sail for almost two years now. It had international TV for a while, and has been on Hulu and the wwe youtube channel for a while. It's not something "designed for the network" or for the hardcore fanbase. If anything, now that it's on the network it will probably start becoming less like the NXT of 2013 now that they'll pay more attention to it and use it as a vehicle to get handpicked talent over. People got gimmicks over organically in NXT....we might see less of that now. I hope not. I know Dusty does a lot of work with people on developing characters and promos, and they have great trainers....so I hope they don't meddle with it too much Fair points. But they've also been planning the network for two years- don't you get at least a little feeling that the Hulu/youtube stuff has been a bit of a feeling out/priming process for it becoming a real "brand" when the Network launches? I'm aware they've been doing the tapings there, but it just feels to me like they've been priming the pump for the big push when the network came out. Like, all the champs right now are these long reigning dynasties (well, until Neville won last night) and that seems like they have been trying to get it running so it can hit the ground running as a Network cornerstone from the jump. I came away with the vibe that they want NXT to take off as a hardcore fan alternative to the main roster, and that Arrival is where the "canon" of the Universe really begins, kinda like how WWE sometimes gives the impression that the Universe starts at WrestleMania I. (Edited to remove extra quote box)

If this isn't the right place for this type of post please feel free to delete or move: Where does this Cesaro run of the past few months rank all time? When was the last time a guy had this many great matches in different spots on the card and different roles in such a short span? Honestly, this is kinda reminding me of Stone Cold before he was STONE COLD where you can just feel the momentum and crowd building behind him every time he comes out.

First, this entire 90s forum is amazing. Second, I hope it's ok to comment after watching on WWE Network. Third, this match is kinda crazy. I've always been fascinated with the way WCW took the old WWE characters and did a Marvel/DC style crossover with some retooling of the basics. I thought Flair did a great job here of playing heel, where some other dudes might have taken the somewhat mixed reaction and tried to put themselves over. Hogan as the "GOAT on the Comeback" face was well done and I thought he did a great job of projecting strength and ability but not as much invincibility as his previous Hulkamania incarnation. From what I remember, that humanizing aspect is kinda lost over the next few months and then we go into DoD cartoon mode, but whatever. In general, Hogan in a US promotion that has traditionally been much more "real" (ignoring some obvious horrible sports entertainment escapes like the midget movies) than the WWF ring he previously worked in is quite a sight in and of itself. I thought WCW did a great job of presenting this as a Big Event, just lacking a bit of the polish that Vince put on his big events. My only real quibble with this match is mostly hindsight - knowing what we know now about Shaq, it's a real missed opportunity to not slap a headset on him here. There is a second quibble I guess, which echoes Jingus above- where does this go afterward? But at the same time, I don't see how you can NOT have Hogan win here when you've made the decision to go Face/Heel with the two. If they had done some sort of split crowd Cena/Lesnar gimmick I could see coming up with a way to keep Flair champ, but I also don't think that direction would have worked in 1994.

On the HHH/Vince/Steph stuff, certainly the fact this is HHH's baby is a big reason he puts it over so strongly. On the other hand, I'm not so quick to just blame Vince for Raw not being like this. NXT is a niche product designed to provide programming for the network and appeal to your hardest of hardcores - of course it's presented differently than the corporate Raw show that's designed to throw a wide net and keep revenue coming in and give them something to talk about with investors and potential partners. NXT is definitely more traditional and focused, but that's because NXT doesn't need to carry the company in the same way. I still think it's hilarious that the NXT team is taking a group of hot indy talent, relative nobodies, and people from other sports and already putting on a show that runs circles around Impact.

Couldn't disagree more with this. I thought the Zayn/Cesaro match was nothing like your typical WWE style main event. For me it felt more like a modern New Japan style match or even something they would have done five years ago in ROH. Which is part of the reason I thought it was so good, it was such a departure from the norm. It highlighted the strengths of each man, especially Zayn's high level emotional selling, which is to me what made him possibly the best wrestler in the world before he ever step foot in WWE. He conveys underdog emotion better than anybody on the planet, and this match was Exhibit.A of the great stuff he was doing in a million different places before he signed. Cool observation. I am super unfamiliar with New Japan so I don't have that frame of reference which probably hinders my ability to break it down. I will say I didn't necessarily mean my comment as a real negative - I thought it was overall very good and there were a ton of spots I enjoyed, including the finishing sequence with Cesaro attempting to murder Zayn repeatedly.

Do you have any specific matches to check out? I'll admit to only having seen them three times - this show, and a couple squashes on the recent episodes of NXT I have been catching up on. I'm normally a fan of gimmick'ed up tag teams (I'm a Demolition fan ...) so I was into their entrance but underwhelmed by the in-ring portion. Do they have any reasoning behind the gladiator garb or is it just something they wear?

I thought that was a really fun event, and enjoyed the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) positioning of NXT as an alternative to the main shows (and much more subliminally, Impact) that starts with the oddly formatted show name; ArRIVAL. Match wise, it definitely felt like with Cesaro/Zayn and Paige/Emma that the participants were doing some of live dress rehearsal for what I've seen you guys call the "Forced Epic" style of WWE main events, with all the "stay down!" and respect spots. I think that took away from both matches, since you had them both running similar storylines and including very similar spots at some points. In a vacuum I think I'd like both bouts better but within the show it felt overdone. No comments on Dallas/Neville since my stream died a little bit into it after degrading to giant pixels instead of people, but Neville definitely has a little bit of a Euro RVD feel to him, which I don't think is all bad. They even did the pre-match locker room splits warmup camera shot with him. You get the sense that HHH, particularly, is pretty proud of what they have going on down there and I don't blame him, they've really created a great atmosphere (even though the Full Sail crowd gets a bit too self aware and self important at times) for the show and I think it's going to be hilarious when the minor league WWE show on a paid digital network starts challenging Impact for most people watching over the next year. Assuming people can get over the (unsurprising) technical issues of the stream, I'd guess that NXT made quite a few new fans tonight. I can't praise the commentary team enough, such a breath of fresh air from the Monday night crew. I also really liked the preshow dynamic that was setup like College Gameday with the outdoor set and sign holding crowd. The real negatives for me were few, but man, I am not a fan of the Ascension. Does anyone think they have much of a shot of actually getting over on the main roster? It seems so ... forced.

I agree with pretty much all that. I tend to be somewhat forgiving with WWE booking because they have to walk a lot of different lines with their product and goals - maintaining a steady financial side, keeping the kids happy, reeling in casuals when possible, doing the bare minimum to keep hardcores buying stuff, namely - that is naturally going to make big shifts in presentation and talent difficult to pull off with the speed the internet wants sometimes. They've got a giant ship to turn around these days, so I understand, to an extent, why they try to make something like Batista-Orton work rather than pull the plug because of a rocky start. I absolutely understand how frustrating it is to watch the start-stop-start-stop-bury cycle most new talent goes through and think that the focus you suggest would be a big boon. There's already two distinct "seasons" in WWE - the leadup to Mania and the leadup to SummerSlam - and those are the times when the most casual eyeballs are on the show and should naturally be when they try to really elevate one guy (or team) each time around. The Orton-Big Show thing was a farce and, if I had to guess, the Bryan momentum caught them off guard and they decided to wait to continue his push until the bigger 'Mania season (which, I have no idea where that was headed if Punk/HHH was the direction...) and that's the best they came up with. Agreed it was a really odd, boring pairing at a time when they seemed to be heating up. From the WWE perspective, I often wonder how much they really think they can retain casual fans like yourself in the first place - or if they feel that putting emphasis on WrestleMania season and the "summer angle" and keeping you around for 3-6 months of the year is a win for them. This all does relate back to Mania XXX, because it feels like Bryan is the first guy to go through one of these (at times) half-assed pushes but keep building momentum and fans, so at the very least I'm intrigued to see if they give him some sort of breakthrough, for real, or if it's a setup to return to the dreaded status quo after a feel good moment. I, of course, hope that they are playing on this fear with the angle at this point and plan on delivering Bryan to the inner circle, but have doubts it'll happen. Which is part of the reason they'll get my money for the show...

Totally agree that this style, if it's even a real move, would be hard to pull off. I think there's potential with the Network and the pre/post shows to allude to the depth and "real story" behind the angles without alienating your fans who are watching for a traditional product, while giving some meat to people more inclined to dive deep into whatever they are doing. The upshot is, if you get people viewing like this, there's ample room to paint within the outlines they give you, and you can somewhat create your own story to accompany everything that happens. With regards to the working style, for this squishy new style to work, the kayfabe/reality parallel lines theme can continue through how the matches are worked - for example, in the traditional mode, you're watching Daniel Bryan/HHH to see Bryan get the best of the Authority and be a winner. But in the deep/reality/whatever side, you're watching to see how Bryan performs in that spot, what kind of match he can do, how they set him up, etc. Extend that to someone like Cesaro - you're watching from a traditional standpoint to see him win, but if you are a fan, you are rooting just as hard for him to pull off a great match. Like the Cena/Cesaro match - that's a win in the traditional sense since he hung with the top dog, and it's a win in the "reality" version of the storyline too because he did his part to deliver a really great match that jacked up the crowd. Part of the intended or unintended brilliance of this meta-booking is that I think it potentially draws your "smart" fans into the matches more emotionally, as they are going to react with real feelings for a guy like Cesaro/Bryan getting their fair shake. I don't mean to stuff this forum with my half-baked theories on some complex double universe scheme WWE may or may not be attempting, especially since I don't have the terminology or specifics in any firm manner, but it's how I've been watching WWE ever since the "Pipebomb" and it really enhanced my enjoyment of their booking and overall product. Maybe that's how everyone has always watched wrestling and I'm just late to the party, though

As the new guy here I want to clarify my own personal stance a bit before the meat of this post - I'm a lifelong WWE fan, and avid fan of the current product, but readily acknowledge many faults it has and I don't think people are lame for not liking it. What I've found is that sometimes, if you fill in the gaps and background for yourself a bit, their angles work a bit better. For instance, I'm not really down on the seemingly inevitable Bryan/HHH, Cena/Wyatt. Batista/Orton, Lesnar/Taker card as others. Here's why: Bryan-HHH I kinda already talked about my theory on this one. The past few years WWE has definitely shifted into a more meta storytelling in WrestleMania season, I assume to appeal to the group of casual fans that wander in for this period. The main event of the show tends to resolve around something meta, not necessarily the title, even when the title is a prop like Rock-Cena. That was about who is "the big dog" more than who is the champ, even if they worked the title in. This year, I think the main event is definitely going to end up being Bryan-HHH. They have a portion of the audience legitimately shocked and angry that Bryan isn't the champ, and I think people have unknowingly bought into an angle that I'm not even sure WWE knew they were booking. But if they get it now, they have a match where there's going to be legitimate fear that Bryan will lose his "big shot" at the COO, and that's gonna make for a good environment. In theory, beating HHH establishes Bryan in that upper tier of title contenders - which, arguably, is more important than any specific title win for the way modern WWE works. Kane's turn kinda works in this context as well - he saw potential in Bryan during their time together, and joined The Authority to give him a test. He wanted to see how Bryan reacted to losing a teammate and friend, and unleashed his "monster" on him to push him to a higher level before he takes on HHH, who (whether we like it or not, and I don't really) is still presented as some sort of GOAT in WWE. That's why I say the belt is actually a negative to the Bryan angle - his story is about cracking into the inner circle of main eventers, not necessarily winning the title right now. Cena-Wyatt I don't really have a big problem with the way this is presented. Cena has been talking about being the guy to beat to prove yourself for some time, and Wyatt clearly wants a name for himself. I agree that they should have built Wyatt more as a single threat if they want this match to really click, but I never tried to say WWE is perfect. I'm interested to see how this plays out over the next month - I think there's a slight chance you get to see some sort of Cena/Reigns pairing at some point during this that is aimed to giving Reigns a big rub from saving Cena's bacon. Orton-Batista Are we sure they don't want the crowd to crap on this match? There was a lot of rumors around the past few months about truly moving beyond "face" and "heel" in the traditional sense, which is something I'm sure we've all heard before. But if they truly want to evolve the product more into a UFC style where most guys are both heel and face to various segments of the audience (basically turning everyone into Cena with the dueling crowds) this is an interesting way to help push it along. If they were to push this as the two best, whether people like it or not, I could get interested. It wouldn't work as a show closer but in the middle that could be good, especially if they deliver with a good match. The problem here is I don't buy Batista as the best, but they've got a couple weeks to kinda turn that around. Lesnar-Undertaker Not sure there's much to explain or defend at this point. I included it because I wanted to mention that I think bald, old, Aryan Nation looking insane Undertaker might be even scarier than his other incarnations - if I was a 6 year old last night, UT slamming a pen into Lesnar, ripping off his hood to reveal that freaky haircut and weird face while screaming, and then chokeslamming him into the table would have kinda terrified me. Looked like a psycho prisoner attack. Conclusion I think there's a lot of mental gymnastics necessary to get great storytelling out of WWE, but I think that's semi-intentional. The booking seems to have two sides to me - the straightforward kayfabe interpretation, and lots of allusions/veiled references to the backstage "new kayfabe" universe, where making a name for yourself and being a "star" is something equivalent to a title. I think that's at least semi-intentional - reading through casual fan twitter remarks and talking to the people who watch occasionally, they don't as easily see through stuff like Bryan/HHH being a total work - there's definitely a belief out there that HHH really doesn't want Bryan to win anything or be a star, and I don't think his placement on the shows or prominence in the "universe" backs that up. Or, maybe I'm just trying to justify spending three to five hours a week watching current WWE.

I would wager that a lot of people feel that way, especially for $65. Kinda interested to see how many are interested in it for $9.99.

The Usos should have won the belts like that. I get the New Age Outlaws as old veteran heels act, but they definitely need to be squashed like Honky Tonk Man to lose those titles.