rvd356

I admit to being a crazy fuck when it comes to wrestling but I loved WCW in its dying days. Much moreso than WWF, in that era anyways. I only jumped over to WWF when Benoit did, but even then, WCW was the show to watch then, for me. I'm with you here. I ALWAYS was a WCW guy after I discovered it(Summer 1997). Maybe because it has all my WWF NBC/Coliseum video(only channel I had till '97, and the local video store only carried WWF tapes) favorites like Hogan, Savage, Razor, Piper etc. The WWF & WCW had lots of new(to me) guys like Austin, Benoit, vader, Booker T, Foley but WCW just seemed so much more 'Must See'. Plus apart from Sasuke/Taka from IYH & Raw in '97(still love those two little matches though), WCW's juinor heavyweight division crushed WWF's, and that was a style I had *never* seen except for maybe The Rockers, 'Leapin' Lanny and a handful of WWF guys.

Ummmm... no. Well what was the point of the Cro Cop fight? Surely no one thought he had a chance to win the thing. Wasn't the idea just to give him some cred as a tough guy? I'm guessing someone thought he might score a takedown atleast.

Seriously even back in my mark days('97/'98) I would think to myself "why isn't Scott Steiner World champion? He could obviously kick the shit out of Hogan, Sting, Piper and Flair." The only WCW guys I saw on his level were Goldberg, Of course now I know it was nepotism by Flair & Hogan keeping guys like him at US Title level. I stopped watching all together after to focus on school sports and cuz Mania 15 just sucked and the nWo elite turned me off. When I came back to Raw/Nitro in the end of 2000 Steiner was champ and I was like "Good, of course he is". The prior Goldberg match @ Fall Brawl was freakin great, one of my favorite US power matches. Def a top 5 singles match for both guys. I really liked the Booker HIAC match, and actually the Sid Starrcade match is a guilty pleasure favorite of mine. Really wish WCW would have had Berg/Scotty @ Starrcade in a Rocky III scenario with Berg avenging his big loss. Also put Luger & Sid together, could have been a contender for worst ppv match ever.

Wow I thought I was the only one that liked WCW Big Poppa Pump(1998-2001) better than tag team Scotty(1989-1998). Although I'm a huge fan of the latter(also his Tna run was great too, the only time he sucked was in WWE '02-'04). Maybe cuz I'm such a big fan of Billy Graham and he was using a lot of Grahams stuff, but had a better moveset. Sure he couldn't do all the flashy stuff from the early 90's but he was such an evil bastard throwin Kim out of the car & chokin people out. He had that unmatched look & strength & the amature background to back it up. 1 of my favorite US monster heels(after only vader '92-'94) World champs was him November '00- March '01. nvx

I would leave Ryback out to do the Show match, but logically Hunter could always ask Shawn to come back for one night to help defend the McMahon family honor against Heyman's big two. I like Shawn staying retired because it adds to 'The Streak'. now what he should do is go to The Undertaker, his toughest opponent, for help. Brock & Punk v. Triple H & Taker, Street Fight. I'd buy it. Well I was operating under the assumption that Taker is not working Mania this year. If he was, I would opt for Punk OR Brock vs Taker straight up. Its up in the air, so figured a tag match would be easier on him. Who are we kidding its Brock/Trips II with Brock eating a Pedigree. Let's see if Trips can top his classic with Orton @ WM25 or the classic with Jericho @ WM18, heh.

Haha work with me here. Slaughter v. Piper, Orndorff, Orton would have been some cool stuff in '85(especially loved Orndorffs wrestling at the time, and Piper was in his absolute prime) Slaughter v. Andre The Giant @ Mania 3 doesn't quite have the same charm, but I really think the badass Marine babyface champion could have drawn some big $, of course nothing could have touch the "golden goose" Hogan in the 80's. But I'm thinking some alternative universe stuff here. Here's the Slaughter What If thread from last year http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=15405 Seriously thank you for that! Look forward to reading it.

I would leave Ryback out to do the Show match, but logically Hunter could always ask Shawn to come back for one night to help defend the McMahon family honor against Heyman's big two. I like Shawn staying retired because it adds to 'The Streak'. now what he should do is go to The Undertaker, his toughest opponent, for help. Brock & Punk v. Triple H & Taker, Street Fight. I'd buy it.

Haha work with me here. Slaughter v. Piper, Orndorff, Orton would have been some cool stuff in '85(especially loved Orndorffs wrestling at the time, and Piper was in his absolute prime) Slaughter v. Andre The Giant @ Mania 3 doesn't quite have the same charm, but I really think the badass Marine babyface champion could have drawn some big $, of course nothing could have touch the "golden goose" Hogan in the 80's. But I'm thinking some alternative universe stuff here.

I like AWA from the stuff I've seen. Got the WWE released AWA set which was a fun doc(albeit kinda light on dirt) with some decent extras. Even though I'm not a big fan of the guys(in ring), Lawler/Kerry from Superclash III is a damn good match IMO. Also caught a bit of the ESPn stuff on Classics and some Youtube of course. I recently got the Hennig WWE dvd(weak doc, fun extras) so I have the Hennig/Bockwinkle 60 minute match but haven't gotten around to watching it. Here's something I was pondering(I'm sure its been discussed a million times here) but how do you guys think the 80's scene would have looked had Gagne pulled the trigger on Hogan as the #1 babyface World champion. In turn McMahon would have gone with Sgt. Slaughter as the guy to take the belt off of the Iron Shiek @ MSG that night. Also Gagne locks up the Road Warriors longterm to really compete. Say Gagne goes with the same merch model McMahon runs with and gets a real video distributor. Gagne creates his own big ppvs(minus celebrities of course) and expands nationally on Hogan's back against McMahon at the same pace.

Admittedly, I thought this might have been the case after I made my post. I think I may be getting a little cynical about people as of late. You can like and dislike what you want to. I wasn't getting uptight because you disliked something that I liked, but because I thought you were being dishonest. I still don't really get how you managed to pick up on the fact that we tend to like Memphis and Hashimoto, but not that we tend to like lucha and dislike post-comeback Michaels. But that doesn't give me the right to jump to conclusions like that. I'm sorry. Thank you sir. I did a lot of reading on here before making an account so I knew the favorites on here generally. Seriously have watched tons of Lucha on tv back in the day and I just didn't get the appeal. But that's the point of this place, to discuss these things intelligently. Also I thought I'd throw some thoughts out there on Michaels to see where the hate comes from, not to bait but to understand it. now if were talking Japanese wrestling, that's something that hooked me the first match I saw(Misawa/Kobashi 1-20-97 I believe was the date). I was just in awe of the stiffness & the dangerous moves. I didn't know anything about backstories(still dont) but it didn't matter.ordered a 'Best of Kobashi' & 'Best of Kawada' comp tape and still hold up that style/period/group of workers as the tops of all time.

Hurricanranas, Planchas, Topes...matches with lots of Spanish named moves is all I got lol.

Nah, at least one or two people have voted for him... plus me. For rules, I'm going with "must be a natural-born American citizen, but the comparison includes their foreign matches". In adjusted alphabetical order: Steve Austin Mick Foley Terry Funk Eddie Guerrero Stan Hansen Shawn Michaels Rey Mysterio Jr The Necro Butcher Ricky Steamboat The Undertaker With "on a different day, I could pick this guy" honorable mentions for Kurt Angle, Bryan Danielson, Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler, AJ Styles, and Vader. I like this list here. Really, really love necro. The Low Ki & Joe matches from 2005 IWA Mid-South were some of my favorites from the last decade. Honestly I haven't seen that much of him but I love his style. I was just waiting for Tna to bring him in back in '05/'06 to feud with Raven or Joe when they actually pushed talented guys(unlike tonights Impact where Garrett Bischoff turned on Kurt Angle to join the Aces. What a joke Hogan & Bischoff have turned the promotion into. It angers me how their kids are now the top 2 pushed 'stars'.) Anyway back to necro, what's he up to? Saw the vader match and was sadly dissapointed. Any one have some recomendations for him?

No, no, no, you're doing it all wrong. If the lucha style is garbage, and you identify Shawn's 90's style as lucha style, shouldn't that mean you hate Shawn's 90's work? This is why I always troll by telling the truth. Trolling through lies leaves you open to getting tripped up, especially when you get so overzealous as you did here. It was garbage, but you watched it for years? Why? When I think a show is garbage, I usually don't make it until the end of the episode. Also, someone correct if I'm wrong, but did lucha ever air on Univision outside of the short-lived LLL experiment? I thought it was always a Galavision thing. No, you're gonna have to start again. Like, completely from scratch. New username, pretend you've never been here before...the whole nine yards. The art of the troll is a delicate one, indeed. I don't think you have the touch for it, yet. 1) no, you're 'trolling' me if anything. I am just talking about wrestling, I don't see the point in pissing off communinities on the net. When I saw this board, l liked its unique opinions and have discovered many wrestlers and matches I love(like Hashimoto/Zangiev, Hash in general or UWFI stuff). I'm willing to give anything a shot. 2) I said Lucha "style" meaning taking good aspects of Lucha and leaving the crap behind. Italking about WCW "Lucha libre": Rey Mysterio Jr., Eddy(saw the Havoc '97 match live, talk about hooked for life), Juvy Guerrera, Psicosis etc. Actually the Trios match from Bash At the Beach '97 was one of my early favorites. But all of the guys in that match had talent. So if those count, I like Lucha. I'm not sure what the station was honestly, Galavision, Telemundo etc...its just not good IMO only. I watched it because it was wrestling, and I watched any kind. I'm not gonna say it was all bad, there were some goodish talents but 80% of it was old "Legends" embarassing themselves with contrived spots. I respect it's different but to me amost all the AAA & CMLL stuff saw was just bad. I even saw an AAA show live and it was the same armdrags and flipfest junk. 3) I would like to get along with everyone here and get/give recomendations. Sorry if I offended Lucha fans.

He isn't downgraded for being a prick and fucking over people. Lots of guys pimped in this thread were pricks who fucked over people, and it's not held against them. He's downgraded because people feel his great 90's run wasn't as great as some people claim, and that his post-comeback run was downright bad for the most part. So what are we counting as that "90's" run? Barbershop window through Wrestlemania 14(HBK Era)? I guess what could be held against him is the showboating Lucha style or "drama" or whatever. But even if you hate the "Sexy Boy 90's" character, you got to appriciate his top matches from that Era like the 2 ladder bouts with Scott Hall, Jarrett IYH 2, IYH Diesel street fight, IYH v. Foley, KOTR with Bulldog & the British ppv with Bulldog(love this match, Shawn was such a bastard heel. Just always loved Shawn/Davey's chemistry. Power v. Speed) And I would think the consensus on here would be that his 2nd run was better. Seeing as how he wrestled more grounded, smarter matches. Of course you have the 2 Taker matches & the 2 Angle ppv matches, which liked a lot but I can see the flip side of those. But how bout the Orton S-Series match in '07? Best Orton match ever IMO. Plus the Cena Mania bout is the best of Cena's career outside the Punk MITB '11 match IMO. Sure the 2nd run Dx stuff was God-awful, but when it was just veteran Shawn out there it was usually good. Let me first say welcome to the board. Next, I don't think you know this board very well. You forgot to bold the part where he called Shawn's style "showboating lucha style", but yeah. Incidentally, a lot of people here - myself included - do appreciate the top matches from Shawn's 90's run. We just don't think they're enough to make him an all-time great. Anyway, some useful reading material: Would Shawn Michaels Make Your Personal Top 100? What would you call his style back then? That was just what JR said back in '96, didn't know how else to describe it. Maybe its unfair, since Lucha(CMLL, AAA) are fuckin garbage. I watched them on Univision for years in CA. Weak ass armdrags, weak ass strikes, old out of shape "Legends" that make Flair & Mutoh 2013 look good.

He isn't downgraded for being a prick and fucking over people. Lots of guys pimped in this thread were pricks who fucked over people, and it's not held against them. He's downgraded because people feel his great 90's run wasn't as great as some people claim, and that his post-comeback run was downright bad for the most part. So what are we counting as that "90's" run? Barbershop window through Wrestlemania 14(HBK Era)? I guess what could be held against him is the showboating Lucha style or "drama" or whatever. But even if you hate the "Sexy Boy 90's" character, you got to appriciate his top matches from that Era like the 2 ladder bouts with Scott Hall, Jarrett IYH 2, IYH Diesel street fight, IYH v. Foley, KOTR with Bulldog & the British ppv with Bulldog(love this match, Shawn was such a bastard heel. Just always loved Shawn/Davey's chemistry. Power v. Speed) And I would think the consensus on here would be that his 2nd run was better. Seeing as how he wrestled more grounded, smarter matches. Of course you have the 2 Taker matches & the 2 Angle ppv matches, which liked a lot but I can see the flip side of those. But how bout the Orton S-Series match in '07? Best Orton match ever IMO. Plus the Cena Mania bout is the best of Cena's career outside the Punk MITB '11 match IMO. Sure the 2nd run Dx stuff was God-awful, but when it was just veteran Shawn out there it was usually good.

But it is the best Jarrett match ever. On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure it'd be in Shawn's top ten. Anyway, in no particular order, I'd go with Flair, Funk, Bret (he's a US citizen, so I'm counting him), Eddy, Hansen, Lawler, Vader, Steamboat, Austin, and HBK. Haha you can't have Bret on here, he's gotta be on the Canadian version of this thread. If we count current residence then Pipers on here, Patterson and Benoit(ATL cemetary). Who would be left for the Canadian list; Stu Hart?

Well I'm interested in seeing these great Blackwell matches if you have some ideas. I just picked some randoms on Youtube(there isn't much). Better than Taker though? I know he was just a character from '90-'96, but you're saying Blackwell has better matches than Taker/Foley brawls, HBK/Taker 5 matches? Better than the Angle matches, Lesnar HIAC? And I'm objective on Taker, I thought the Trips Mania 27 match was average(***, best part was the head chairshot that Taker sold perfectly, like a Mike Tyson right hand) and the Mania 28 HIAC sucked. What was better than Taker/HBK in 2009? I wasn't watching 07'-10' so just caught this match on the net, so I didn't see a lot of stuff from any promotion that year. Also what was your match of the decade(2000-2009)

Ok here goes. Ha, to the guy who had Piper, I also had him in all versions of my Top 10 list until I remembered he was born in Saskatoon. I guess it was a dumb question about if we were only including US work. And since I have seen a ton of All Japan(more than anything except WWE, WCW and Tna) 1970's-Present so I'm comfortable with some of my picks in that regard. *In order* 1) Ric Flair 2) Randy Savage 3) Vader (no "fat guy" wrestler is even close. Blackwell? Yeah he's fun but he doesn't have nearly the resume of matches that Vader has. Yeah the Lawler match I saw from '82 was impressive, the Road Warriors/Blackwell & Slaughter match from AWA was great, but you plug in Vader and those matches become 10x better. Also, the only "big man"( Giants/Tall guys; splitting hairs with these sub-categories now) in his league is The Undertaker) 4) Stan Hansen 5) Terry Funk 6) Kurt Angle 7) CM Punk(just like him THAT much already) 8) Undertaker 9) Steve Austin 10) Shawn Michaels(I just don't see how you could not put him on a top 10 US list, maybe not a top 10 period list, but he's a top 25 all time wrestler imo. I guess I can see how he's downgraded for being a prick in the 90's and fuckin over people. And every person here seems to love Memphis wrestling. How bout the ****3/4 Memphis(nashville but still) styled match Michaels-Jarrett from IYH: 2? Did no one else here think Taker/HBK from Mania 25 was ***** and match of the last decade?

Couple questions. We're talking guys born in the US I take it by your 3 mentioned exclusions. And are we only taking into account their matches/feuds/angles in the US(sorry if this is a dumb question, I just want my list to be within guidelines). For example most of Hansen's best stuff was in Japan. Should be tough but fun. EDIT: is this our favorite or some kind of mythically 'objective' GOAT list?

I just have to say that The Bulldogs were so awesome in '85-'86 that they claim the crown for the best 80's tag team. Bulldogs/Dream Team @ Mania 2 was the first great Mania match(****1/4 in my book). Their look, offense, bumps, innovation etc just put them above every one else. I know there's such a small sample to judge them on(they were merely average '87/'88 so that does count against them but still). You could put them as they were in WWE, ROH or Japan *today* and they are the best team in the world. But it is a close race. The Rockers/Brainbusters are a CLOSE tie for 2nd in my book. I love AWA Rockers and every match I've seen them in is good-great(granted ALL of those matches were against Sommers/Rose except the 1 fun nasty boys match on Shawn's last dvd) plus their WWF tenure was great. Really liked the WM5 match with the Towers since I was a kid. More later...

1st, Austin/Angle was for the WWE title, not WHC. 2nd, it's funny you mention Sid/HBK & Austin/Angle which were two matches I seriously considered for my pick. Although Hogan/Warrior on Coliseum video made me a wrestling fan for life. now that I think about it, that match was also an Intercontinental title match so I think that DQ'd my IC title pick.

Agreed. Basically they had a big match, and Flair was just smarter and better and he won. nothing wrong with that finish other than they never got to push Luger as the monster babyface champ to compete with WWF and Hogan. Although it didn't matter because Hogan has 100x the charisma and Luger could never touched him, even if they somehow learned to promote guys nationally. That just wasn't going to happen. not to mention the WWF machine was too big to touch. Plus then we would never have gotten "The Trilogy" with Steamboat which was perfect. Steamboat winning the belt at Chi-Town Rumble was the right choice too. It put him right next to Flair as a wrestler, plus it makes history that much better that Steamboat was a World Champion.

All personal favorites, maybe not the 'best'. WWWF/WWF/WWE Championship & WWE Intercontinental:: Hulk Hogan vs Ultimate Warrior - Wrestlemania 6(hell it was for both) WWE World Heavyweight: CM Punk vs Jeff Hardy- TLC, Summerslam 2009 WWE World Tag Team: Edge and Christian vs. The Hardy Boys vs. The Dudleys - TLC, Wrestlemania 17(can't remember the difference between the two tag titles) - WWE European: Shawn Michaels vs. British Bulldog - One night only(loved the super heel Michels here, always loved these two guys' chemistry) WWE Hardcore: Raven vs Kane vs Big Show - Wrestlemania 17(yes I loved WM17) WWE Light Heavyweight: Taka Michonoku vs Brian Christopher - dx In Your House WWE Women's: Trish Stratus vs. Jazz vs victoria - Wrestlemania 19 NWA World Heavyweight: Ric Flair vs. Sting - Clash of the Champions I(yup love Flair/Funk, Rhodes, Steamboat, Windham but this match is just special.) NWA US Title: Lex Luger vs Ricky Steamboat - Bash '89 NWA World tag titles: Arn & Tully vs Lex Luger & Barry Windham - Clash of the Champions I,(what a fuckin show huh?) WCW World Heavyweight: Sting vs. Vader - Great American Bash '92 WCW US title: Raven vs Goldberg - nitro April '98 WCW Cruiserweight: Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio Jr - Halloween Havoc 1997(saw it live) WCW Tag Titles: The Steiners vs Sting & Lex Luger - Superbrawl '91 WCW Tv title: Booker T vs Rick Martel - Superbrawl '98 ECW World Heavyweight: Sandman vs Steve Austin vs Mikey Whipwreck - 1995 ECW TV: Rob Van Dam vs. Bam Bam Bigelow - 1998 TNA World Heavyweight: Sting vs. Kurt Angle - BFG 2007 TNA World Tag Team: Beer Money vs MCMG - Cage, Impact '10 TNA X-Division: AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe - Turning Point '05(just liked it better than the 3 way, sue me) IWGP- damn just haven't watched enough new japan to make choices. Seen hundreds of AJPW matches, hundreds of noah matches. Just like that style better. AJPW Triple Crown: Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - 1/20/97(SUCH a hard pick. Any Kawada/Misawa bout, Jumbo/Tenryu June '89 and a personal favorite Mutoh/Tenryu from 2001) AJPW Tag Titles - Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Kroffat & Furnas - 5/25/92(not sure how the tag title unifying went, but this is my #1 AJPW tag title match) GHC Heavyweight: Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa - Navigate For Evolution 2003 GHC Junior Heavyweight: KENTA vs. Naomichi Marufuji - 10/26/06 ROH World Heavyweight title: Bryan Danielson vs KENTA - GBH Night 2 2006(have never seen the Punk/Joe trilogy. I know I suck.) ROH Pure title: Jay Lethal vs Samoa Joe - Manhattan Mayhem 2005 ROH Tag Titles: Kings of Wrestling vs MCMG's - Supercard of Honor? 2010. The match that made me a HUGE Cesaro fan. It was hard not to list the guy from Edmonton but I hate to give him any credit. Yes I really like Sting, HBK & Kobashi. EDIT: changed nwa US title match, how forgot Luger/Steamboat I dunno. Also my WWE title match was also an IC title match so I combined them.

Man people sure have some strange opinions here. I thought that was one if Lugers top 5 bouts(along with Luger/Sting vs. Steiners Superbrawl '91, Pillman Havoc '89, Steamboat GAB '89 and Sting Superbrawl '92 as a personal favorite). Although have never seen the highly touted Wrestlewar '90 and Capital Combat '90 Flair/Luger matches.

Well like I said in the Hart/Flair thread, if were talking about US/Canadian wrestlers, then it has to factor into your comparisons. That's one reason I gave Flair the nod(personally I like Flair's wrestling skills better aswell) because Hart's promo work and character were not even close to Flair's. Flair has the timeless bleach blonde cocky heel character and he was far and away the king of that character. His promos going back to the TBS days were as entertaining as *any* wrestling match to me. But if your going to do Jumbo vs Flair; who's better thread, you basically have to throw out all of the promos and character development of Flair over his 40 years. You're left with wrestling ability, # of great bouts and in-ring charisma, which is stuff that could be compared.