thebrainfollower

Going to cover a couple of Trish promos I really like. Trish - December 2004 This is backstage with Todd Grisham the week after dropping the title to Lita. Trish calls Todd Tom and could care less. He corrects her and she offers to smack the glasses right off his face. Trish points out she's the best women's wrestler ever and that Lita had to kill herself just for one win. It's only about 2 sentences of the standard stuff of getting a title back though her "any more questions TODD" is good stuff. But it really gets across she's gone into total psycho mode and will do anything to get the title back. I feel kinda sorry for what happened because in the rematch Lita hurts herself for 18 months out, in ring at least. Trish - May 2004 - This is the Highlight reel during the Jericho feud (some of her very best stuff ever as a character). It's a highlight reel but instead of Jericho Trish's silhouette comes out with Tyson Tomko behind. Trish's body language and acting are perfect cocky heel stuff, just slightly over the top but always enough to make you legit hate her. I cannot say it enough, it was darn hard for a gorgeous woman to get WWE fans to boo her at that time but Trish did it brilliantly. Lita too but that was real heat over Matt and Edge. This was just Trish's awesome acting and the storyline. She was literally running rings around HHH at this time as a heel. She makes a joke about the French Canadian audience making no sense to her. That's some good cheap heat lol. Claims she is surrounded by 10,000 Frogs to huge heat. Was that still a way to get Montreal angry by this point? She wishes Christian well, being the worst part of Hollywood elite annoying in the process. Brags about being a 3 time Babe of the Year and questions why she is lowering herself doing this. Talks about a great highlight to show and they replay Tyson powerbombing Jericho through a table. She calls 911 to report the robbery that Trish and Tomko just stole the show. Sounds corny as heck and is to an extent but it works well in context. You just want to see someone punch the smug look off her face. Then makes fun of JR. Is it me or does her JR voice sound more like Crocodile Dundee? Tells Tomko she enjoys his work with a look that............well you can get the subtext. Warns everyone not to be a problem but Jericho's pyro goes off and he attacks. He goes toe to toe with Tyson Drops him and Trish tries to attack him but gets put in the Walls (really wish Lita had been involved week in and out to prevent male on female violence) but Tyson makes the save with a huge boot to KO Jericho. Press slam through a set on its side folding chair that doesn't give follows. Tomko places the chair to choke Jericho with it and Trish casually sits on it and poses to huge heat. She talks trash and they leave. Trish channeled a perfect high school situation throughout this feud. She was the uber hot girl that every guy adored until one day you did something to upset her or just realized she was a total blitch. Lita played the loyal friend to oppose her. This was perfectly aimed at their audience of the time and showed (as did the entire feud) a real understanding of the audience and its life that was far superior to the writers (Trish and Jericho more or less wrote their own program) work. Good stuff. Trish got how to get over as a beautiful female heel AND not be Superwoman (Hello Stephanie) better than any woman in WWF history. Other good stuff to watch from this era would be her first promo and "match" after getting a cast vs Nidia, calling out Christy Hemme a few times, calling out Lita's infidelities with Kane to start that feud, and even her calling out the Diva Search girls for a volleyball match. Yes she found a way to get some heat doing THAT. Trish was one of the best, if not the best overall performer on Raw from WM 20-21 by a long stretch.

I think whatever he says Vince's intention was to replace Bret as the top guy before WM IX and never had any serious intentions of giving him a run again until support for Lex Luger vs. Bret Hart made it clear that's what fans wanted. Thankfully Vince had more sense back then otherwise Bret would never have gotten the belt back.

To the thread I watched the entire run of January 91 on Prime Time. That was ROUGH let me tell you. When your best match in a month is Tugboat vs. Dino Bravo you are in trouble. It was the very end of the Gorilla/Brain run though and that was just as great and entertaining as I remember. I watched all the network stuff on Prime Time as it went up and was pleased by the number of decent matches I got. This month though was not good. They even showed a Valentine-Saba Simba match twice.

And Parv I get why you hate Hogan babyface WCW. I hate a LOT of it too but there are good things here and there. The thing is though, it was doing much better than DA and Vader WCW in every way except critical approval. So it makes sense why they did that even if it stinks.

I don't think I dislike Crockett TV per se. Everything I saw prior to Dusty taking over was fine. The small studio and the short squash matches fit the era really well. I love Bob Caudle (odd given my political leanings) and Johnny Weaver a lot. The 84 stuff I didn't really care for. And again the 85-87 stuff does nothing for me. It's as if nothing really happens. Every week the whole roster comes out to talk. But none of them have anything new to say more often than not. When you've seen one episode of the show, I feel like you've seen them all. There are exceptions, every now and then you get an amazing TV match much better than anything Superstars or Challenge put on. Those are great. But overall I feel like I'm watching a dated product by even then standards. I also am watching one of my least favorite announcers which doesn't help. As to short squash matches...............there's nobody in WWF TV who could ever compete with Magnum TA for short squashes. I get these guys are jobbers and it was done to build TA up but armdrag, armbar, belly to belly DONE never did it for me. For whatever reason I think it's too short to be plausible and you're talking to someone who likes a wrestling viking. Also I think a LOT of it is the "everyone talks about Dusty all the time" nonsense. I watched the entire year of 86 and early 87 about 3 years ago, more or less weekly and that does happen despite what some have claimed. And it's not that I don't like that roster. I like Ric and the Horsemen. Love JC and the Midnights, love the Rock and Rolls. Have no problem with the Boogie Woogie Man Paul Jones feud, though I think Jones is a bad promo. Like Ronnie Garvin in ring. Like Dusty in moderation. Like Paul and the Road Warriors. But every time someone suggests watching an episode I can think of a half dozen territories I'd rather watch their weekly TV show. NWA Main Event by contrast I love. Clashes too obviously.

I love that stuff about Bret too. I am sure that's where Trish got it from because putting her under the microscope there are tons of examples of spots and finishes evolving through feuds and sometimes multiple feuds. The more I think about it the more i cannot rank Arn ahead of Bret. So I'm thinking my top 20 is also more fluid than I realized. One thing I like about your list NJT is that i get a clear picture of what you like from each style of wrestling.

Not to derail this into Hogan talk but his 84 loop is really strange. It's not just the insane travel schedule everybody had it's the variety of opponents. Hogan never wrestled so many different guys as he did in 84 and again in 85 after that. Some of the strangest people got title shots like Afa and Mr. Fuji. I THINK the approach was a combination of "people came to see Hogan, who cares against who" and "give EVERYONE a title shot at one point to keep the money spread around and talent happy". I can't see any other reason. Bruno had programs. Bob had programs. Hogan early on just wrestled whoever without rhyme or reason. It's the closest thing to face traveling NWA champ we get. As a random example in the last week of Feb/first week of March Hogan fought Studd, Masked Superstar, David Schultz, Orndorff, Sheik, Afa and Tiger Chung Lee. I bet that's more guys than Flair in that same period lol.

If there's one guy who gets mad at Ric Flair for giving too much it's me. I am going to end up sent Quantum Leap style into a match with Flair one day and just refuse to do a single piece of offense he calls.

I love 80's WWF. Love 80's Mid South. Love 80's Memphis. Love 80's WCCW in its presentation (matches sometimes leave me cold). Like what I've seen of Georgia, Florida and MACW 81-83. Not a fan of 85-87 JCP unless there's a good match on (love the end of 85 episode) and don't care for the little I've seen of pre ESPN AWA as a weekly TV Show. These are just the weekly TV shows I am talking about not the promotions in general. By contrast 94 Raw's I find duller than death and have never been able to get into ECW but I love the year and a half of Smoky Mountain I've seen. So I am not really a 90's guy. Some of it (Superstars, Challenge) is heavily nostalgia induced but some isn't. I don't think it's an anti-Southern bias either to be honest.

In much the same way Flair should have squashed George South like a bug in 2 minutes, yes it's a problem. Unless we know he was specifically ordered HOW to work the match (which I really really doubt) it's definitely a dumb thing to do. Whether or not doing it once on a random weekly TV show in your career is a big deal is up to you. Not sure it makes him look one dimensional but it makes him look like a wimp if every other team is taking Jeffers out with no problem.

Never been a fan of the Dusty's overall presentation of the weekly TV show. Yeah tons of promos. I don't need to hear the entire roster week in and week out myself particularly if nothing has really changed to give what they say much meaning. Like hearing from guys only maybe once a month at most on promos. Couple that with too rare quality matches and squashes so short as to be meaningless and I never liked it. Add to that David Crockett who I cannot stand and I just don't care for that TV product in precisely the same way you don't care for Nitro. Not to mention some really dated locations and production values, though that got much better as time went on. There was a ton of hard sell by Eric I agree. He himself was convinced the show would not work and his career was on the line. That he worked hard (too hard) to sell it makes sense. Matches were good stuff for North American TV in 1995. ECW was a highlights reel and Raw before Nitro had one midcard match a night and a bunch of squashes on average. I'm tempted to say it's a question of historical context mattering because I watched all of ECW 1995 this year and found that rather tedious to be honest. The fisherman suplex was Harley's FINISHER in the WWF for his whole run Parv. He won nearly every squash match with it. Though he wouldn't always do a bridge into a pin. Sorry to sound like a grumpy old guss.

I might be the low vote on Hansen as he's about 16-18 for me. I like the guy obviously but there's something holding me back I can't put my finger on. It's not his NHB appearance for sure.

Cannot disagree with you more Parv. Okay there's no 5 star match on Nitro but it sure hooked me as a 15 year old and made me psyched to see the next one. Playing some of your greatest hits (Pillman-Liger, Sting-Flair) is a good idea, Lex Luger's return making the show instant must see TV, there's a lot of good stuff right away. And it forced Vince to up Raw's game almost right away as well.

Arn has a decent shot at making my top 10. Then I keep thinking Arn better than Bret? and have a hard time deciding that.

IF WWE were a much more mature and socially liberal company I would have booked the Trish-Mickie feud to go as it did with Mickie making a save at SNME. Then have Trish cut a promo with Mickie in the ring about how she thinks she's a bit nuts but has thought about it and nobody's every fought so hard or tried to be by her side in her entire life and she wants to accept Mickie and offers her a hug, keep it ambiguous enough and then have Mickie take her head off with a kick and reveal she doesn't want to be with Trish Stratus and never did, she wants to BE her and will be once she beats her. They sort of did this but having it be Mickie who denies the lesbian action the fans wanted to see would have made a lot more sense as she is the heel here. Trying to figure out what to cover next. I sort of glossed over the good singles matches with Victoria and Jazz (though I think the Victoria ones are much better) and maybe some tags as Trish could do both face in peril and house of fire hot tag worker equally well. I really want to find Trish's first real match as a face against Ivory 8 days after WM XVII. That whole period is odd as Trish is involved in a hot angle at WM, faces Stephanie in a DQ finish, gets hurt by Chyna and then sent back into the lower card so fast it makes your head spin. Rumor had it at the time it was due to heat from her barking like a dog as if that was her fault. Interesting note as the first Trish action figure was supposed to come out mid 2001 and was a 3 pack with Jericho and Benoit suggesting her managing them when they feuded with Austin and HHH was on the table. Also another fun Trish fact. Nobody ever kicked out of the Stratusfaction bulldog. EVER. In her whole career. And her last singles match EVER was a loss to Vickie Guerrero which just makes me sad. Much as I l'd like to see her come back and go 20 with Sasha I doubt it's in her anymore.

That's what Ross alludes to testily as well during the match, that it's a weird crowd. And no Trish didn't get booed on any Raw appearances before or after this that I remember. I would argue the HHH-Cena build was almost designed to produce the result of Cena being booed though to be honest.

You forgot Lance Storm and Rick Martel. Or has anyone even nominated Lance?

Hahahahah. If by cool you mean cool then awesome for you! That's TWO votes. Bret at #1? I'd love to hear the case for that.

I remember groaning at seeing HHH again. I must be the only person who DIDN'T like the McMahon-Helmsley Regime and was sick to death of him even by this point. I think Rock definitely hit a home run though and this played a big part in Hollywood accepting him as much as they did even early on.

My almost walking away moment came at a friend's house at KOTR 95. When Shawn and Kama drew we groaned like nuts. When Mabel beat Taker we both decided to go to the basement and try his new Star Trek TNG game instead.

Don't disagree with any of that. I I only started catching ECW every now and again in 1997 as it was on Fridays at 1am on Channel 27 out of Worcester. I didn't mind it then but when I went back and watched it on the network I couldn't get into it at all despite wanting to

Then I am still confused. They don't want Bret as champion as he is not drawing well. Okay got it. Step 1 - Get title back on babyface legend Hogan. Makes perfect sense. Step 2 - Hogan barely works any shows, only a pair of 3 day weekends as a tag team guy. Step 3 - Have said guy, Bret Hart, who was NOT drawing well, headline the vast majority of the shows against Lex Luger. Only this time without the belt at all. WTF? Did they think Bret would draw BETTER without the belt? The game plan here just makes absolutely no sense. The only thing I can see is that Hogan never told Vince he wasn't going to work houses, Vince didn't wanna just strip Hogan of the title and so he had to wait things out till KOTR where Hogan agreed to drop the belt to Yokozuna. There's still something in all this that makes no sense. Anyone else have any insights about all this? Anyone ask Meltzer recently and point this logic out?

Trish Stratus vs. Mickie James - WM 22 This was the rematch. The storyline played out for about 2 months after NYR with Mickie getting more and more crazy in her attempts to win Trish over, and Trish getting rid of her friendship only for Mickie to come back and save her, then turn on her at SNME. Mickie went into full blown stalker mode. There was a bit of a problem here with Trish remaining the face and WWE's fanbase. Since it was Trish denying them getting physical and that's what most of the audience wanted to see she became a de facto heel. That or the fans really liked Mickie, had enough of Trish with 15 months as champion and wanted a change. Or it was the Chicago crowd being pro heel. Or some of all 3 but in either case Trish gets BOOED out of the building during most of this match. Be curious to hear what others think of this. Mickie as a psycho heel was great. It's a shame that Trish's retirement and the huge heat Lita was getting dictated a title change from Mickie to Lita and a Mickie face turn as soon as Trish left, because this storyline never really had a proper payoff and was one of Trish's best feuds. Probably her best. Pre match interactions and expressions set up the story clearly, now it's Mickie in Trish's head with Trish frustrated, angry and off her game from wanting to clobber her opponent. MIckie by comparison is cocky and relaxed. Trish tries to do her pose with the belt to no reaction. Mickie attacks, cockily hitting and slapping Trish who nails her with a sharp elbow. Hard forearms and the Thesz press punches combo follow. Kicks and Trish chops away on Mickie. Mickie tries to comeback with a spin kick but Trish catches it and DROPS her hard, forcing Mickie to do the splits. That didn't look fun and got a nice OOOOH from the crowd. Trish nails Mickie with a dropkick from behind to send her splattering to the floor in a heap. Never saw Trish really work Terminator style before this match. Trish goes for the chick kick on the floor and posts her leg as a result. Nice idea but a second of delay telegraphed it. That was Trish's fault. Mickie with a kick to the ribs and posts Trish's knee. They exchange some hard forearms with Trish selling her lack of mobility well. but Mickie with a low dropkick to the knee to take over. Mickie whips the knee and Trish's selling is just great here, she sells each hold and blow very well. Let's go Mickie chant starts. Mickie wraps the leg around the corner as JR acknowledges Mickie's support. Half crab and they put amazing passion into the hold, both screaming like nuts. Mickie continues to dissect Trish's knee. This is actually the NYR 2005 match with Lita with Trish playing Lita but not really hurt so they can actually do stuff basically. Leaping stomp to Trish's knee trapped in the ropes looks better than it sounds. Mickie does a slow turn and pose to insane cheers. Ankle torque follows with amazing work and Trish counters with a headscissors to HUGE boos. Trish fires back with forearms and a clothesline and her selling is first rate, affecting each and every little move she does really well. She does the clothesline spot but it's so much more than the standard "do the move as usual, then sell a bit of pain" that was WWE style. High spinebuster as JR sells the defiant fans angle throughout the night. Trish with a stinger splash attempt meets boots in the chest. Trish doesn't run while she does the spot at all instead she just leaps into the air hoping the impact from hitting Mickie would break the impact. This might seem like basic stuff to AJW fans, but very few people outside of WWE and NOBODY trained in their system was doing this stuff at the time. Mickie goes up top and Trish foolishly goes for the stratusphere but Mickie whips the bad knee to send Trish flying in a loop. Posing and huge cheers for Mickie follow. Trish barely powers out of a pin. Another try at the half crab is countered by Trish to a small package for 2. Mickie hauls Trish up and goes for the DDT but Trish shoves her into the corner. Trish charge Mickie leaps and goes for a headscissors with the sexual innuendo clear from her expression so Trish spins her around into a running powerbomb for 2. And Trish only takes one step with the good knee so it's not much of a run but the impact is tremendous. Trish is angry and hammers away. Trish dodges a clothesline with the Ma-Trish altering it enough to show she's hurt. Mickie turns around and gets booted and Trish goes for the bulldog. Mickie counters with a crotch grab, sold by Trish as pain not just the innuendo. WWE Network edit. Trish LEVELS Mickie with a forearm. Mickie kicks up into her head, stunning Trish and LEVELS her with a mick kick for 3. This was great great stuff. Trish put over her new rival here in the biggest way possible. Mickie dominated the match, took Trish's leg apart, forced to wrestle on one knee, used her desires to throw Trish off mentally at the right moment and knocked her out for the pin. THAT'S how you put a new heel over. Best singles match that night by far. 4 stars and thumbs way up. Unfortunately Trish suffered a legit shoulder injury early into the rematch. They had a few more after this on Raw, but none really stood out. Even Trish's final Raw match was too short and just a highlights reel of the first 2 PPV matches they had honestly. It's a shame Mickie wasn't able to rise to Trish's level after her retirement as Trish did everything she could to make that possible.

Savage-Flair drew some really bad houses. I don't think you can blame that on Savage but Warrior-Shango actually did better overall. So the plan was to BOOST business in the long term, knowing that Hogan wouldn't work houses from Mania-Summerslam much where at SS he would put over Bret? Was that what you're saying Loss?

At the start of 91 you have Memphis and Dallas still hanging in there, PNW about to go out of business and Smoky Mountain about to start up. By the end of 96 Memphis is the only one left of the 4 and they are hanging on by a thread. We're down to 3 basically.