thebrainfollower

Pretty sure Dylan has covered a lot of the wrestlers listed on this page already.

Never mind. Parv would have been pwned either way

I actually side with Parv on this. He did manage Virgil against Savage in 88. The fact that he wasn't a licensed manager...............Bobby Heenan was a "financial consultant" NOT a manager with Slic Ric and you let him managing Flair count once I call a screwjob against JVK!

Can I hear that P and G theme anywhere? I cannot recall it at all

Yeah but John Cena works a heck of lot more limited schedule than Bret Hart did. John Cena gets hurt he gets any time off he wants just about. He seems be a superhuman type who can work through it. I meant 80's and early 90's US schedules which are a heck of a lot different than today.

If it's part of the gimmick OR part of the culture that they don't cut promos, I don't count it against them. I up how much everything else is worth to compensate. If they are lousy at it, it hurts them. Taker is fine for his gimmick. Shawn..........I don't think he's a lousy promo. I just think he's about average career wise and nothing special in that department. They wrestle yes but that different schedule to me is so huge a factor, just as big in not counting promos. I actually feel everything is skewed towards non US, particularly Japanese wrestlers by not taking that into account and not counting promos. So for me the balance is right. Promos count IF you are supposed to do them. They don't if you aren't. Work rate I do adjust working 20 weeks vs working 50 to me. I take that into account. Drawing I take into account a lot but NOT all that much. Hogan is my #18 right now not #1. Flair is still #1 for me right now but some of that IS he was the #2 draw in the US in the 80's and an all time great promo if not the GOAT in that.

Is it true the Gangstas demanded only a 2 count to win their matches as a part of affirmative action? It's strange someone as left wing as Cornette would book that and basically turn Tammy Sytch into a HRC worshipper. I guess he knew his audience. All of SMW TV is now up on youtube BTW. You can find where in the youtube channel Watching the 3-26-94 SMW Episode right now. Vince McMahon's promo has to be seen to be believed. He talks about a HB-R and R Loser leaves SMW match and says the WWF would be PROUD to take the losing team on.

Anyone know how to contact Jim Johnston? This seriously interests me and I feel is harmless enough you'd easily get a straight answer.

So for me ability to work comedy really helps. For instance I'm going to put Bobby Heenan high because one thing that shocked me when he did have to be taken seriously as a wrestler (against a certain legit AWA scumbag) he was really good at it and pulled it off amazingly well and that shocked me. He was able to beat Sal Bellomo in a way that felt believable in 84 as well.

It's kinda the same as Greg Gagne's ability to work a weasel suit match with Bobby Heenan. Does that work as an analogy? The ability to work what I see as a comedy match then switch to a serious match.

Exactly. Imagine being told one week you have to wrestle Torrie Wilson in a bikini match or something like that and the next week you have to face Jazz. Oh and by the way, you have to make both look like they could beat you AND you could beat both of them? It would be like someone, as I said asking Flair to have a tuxedo match with Jim Cornette in the middle of his Steamboat series and make it look close. And nobody else was ever asked to do that sort of nonsense. It comes down to my basic case which is her work environment was absolutely the most insane, terrifying stuff in terms of how the HELL do you make this work anyone's ever had in wrestling I can think of. That she produced good stuff in that is admirable for me. Maybe it shouldn't warrant a top 100 spot, but I feel we should all be allowed one sentimental pick. Matt D is absolutely right though. She never really drew money or contributed to the WWE's bottom line at all. One Raw Main Event is about it. And I looked at the results. She literally would go from Jazz to Terri or from Stacy to Victoria/Molly week in and week out. It was nuts.

All the WWF stuff you listed, we ASSUME was taped (and the fact that Savage-UT clips showed up recently suggest it was. I was at a WWF house show taping way back in 91 and above the cameras. A few of the dark matches they were not manned FWIW. Is there any WWF stuff that WAS out once and is gone? I ask because they seem to have the most complete library of footage of 80's promotions.

Oh. Thought it was two different people. Sorry for that then. I am a very very overly sensitive person to be honest.

I will try one more time. I don't. I don't like that sort of stuff at all and I only watched it in context when watching all the stuff she did for my microscope thread. I just think being able to do stupid goofy stuff like that one week and then switch to serious wrestling the next week takes talent. I do remember seeing her take an insane dive in one of those matches and that impressed me at the time. That was my point. Maybe it d who cares.oesn't, maybe I'm wrong. Don't worry I won't post anymore on this GWE thread.

No that's not it. Being called a creep by two different people in minutes is though. And hey, maybe they're right but in either case it bothers me enough I'd prefer to leave the project okay. I thought about leaving PWO too to be honest, but I really like the discussion here, love the podcasts and would miss it too much. It was a lot of fun being part of the discussion about wrestling where I was one of the dumbest people in the room. Most of my non online wrestling friends think Jerry Lawler is a joke and Shawn Michaels is the GOAT

I am sorry i offended anyone this much and really hate being called a creep to be honest. I'll do clearly what's needed and pull out of this project and posting on PWO for a while. I'm still going to read posts because I do enjoy the discussions here and have learned a lot. I was trying to give an example of someone whose work I and very few others appreciate. If she WASN'T considered a good looking woman, or indeed a woman, would it be considered as such. Just something to consider.

I have no fascination with it. I've said I don't really like it, I just think the ability to switch between sex symbol and wrestler week in and week out takes talent. I think it took talent for someone like Vincent Price to ham it up in some movies and be deadly serious in others. Do you find it unsettling when people make jokes about how good looking Ricky Steamboat or Rick Martel are? And I have to say being basically called a creep, which you did, is offensive on a lot of levels. I want an apology for that.

Harley Race, Honky, Demos all had music. Orndorff did too albeit Hogan's. Savage had music as a heel. It WAS less common though Watched WM III to see this (in clips) just now and noticed something. EVERY heel who gets a runway entrance has music except Andre.

Exposer, the one thing that we ALL agree on is that footage has to be available to judge. Footage of matches, promos, angles whatever. So Londos is out cause there's not much out there Hogan is my number 18 FWIW. I bet that's the high vote.

That has truth. Cutting a good promo is PART of a US wrestler's job in every territory in the eras that have footage. So therefore being able to cut a good promo is part of how good you are at your job as a wrestler. Therefore it should be considered. That's how I see it. The skills needed have changed. It used to be you had to be a good improv actor, getting a few bullet points and making it work. Now you have to take HORRIBLE dialogue not written for you and make it work. I compare today's wrestlers to people working in the Star Wars prequels to be honest. There's a talented and world famous actor and director like Ian McDiarmid who can roll with it and there's a talented actress like Natalie Portman who can't. Angles are tougher. Because angles aren't something you really have much control over, unless you come up with your own angle, pitch it, execute it and it works (and again Trish BEGGED Vince to turn heel in 03 early, he blew her off, and then let her and Jericho come up with their angle and eventually prove him wrong. I got all this from her directly FWIW). OR if you make what shouldn't work work or be far more memorable than it was. A wrestler who can make tons of people love and remember a good mid card angle from decades past, that's special to me.

Good camera work? No in all seriousness not all that much. It must not be EASY to wrestle in lingerie however and working out enough safe and funny spots to be able to fill time and still feel like the same person who's going toe to toe with Jazz next week takes some talent. Trish also takes a helluva dangerous bump in a mud match with Stacy in 2002 on Raw. It doesn't take much talent to star in a Michael Bay movie either. It still makes you more versatile as a performer if you can do both however. If there's only ONE "diva" in ten years who can pull both off, then that is something special. At least to me.

If you personally think they are all a 0 go ahead. They aren't though. And what's gotten worse in many cases is the atmosphere they work in. Comedy improv has suddenly become fully scripted by LOUSY writers. Not to flog a dead horse, but Chris Jericho and Trish Stratus basically wrote their own dialogue in their 03-04 storyline and the result was GASP despite some silly booking, a mid-card storyline that fans cared about (check out Trish's heat in the months after Mania if you don't buy it). They basically circumvented the writers, but today's talent can't or won't do that. In my view you CAN'T put Ted in based on those skits, but you CAN consider putting him in based on HIS performance in those skits. And he did great in each and every one of them IMO. Likewise though Mr. Perfect nailed his skits really well too.

Savage Undertaker is the match I really wanna see before I die.

I hate to call a spade but you aren't getting it WE. What is the point of a T and A match? To excite the young teenage boys in the audience with women "wrestling" in a way that primarily showcases their bodies. Does Trish pull that off well? Yes. That doesn't mean I LIKE them or think they are good. I think they are a different part of the program, an act in the circus I would rather not have around. But it does impress me she could pull that off and then switch to fighting wrestlers the next week and be accepted in both roles. They never booked Jazz or Molly Holly or Victoria or Lita (at least in singles matches) like that often if at all. They did for Trish. Likewise they never tried to book the T and A girls (Stacy, Torrie) in serious hard hitting matches. Trish was expected to straddle the fence and excel in both and she did. That's VERSATILITY. The other serious wrestlers almost always weren't booked in those sorts of matches but because Trish looks like Pam 2.0 (anyone get the double reference?) she was expected to do it and pull both off. Sort of like Mark Wahlberg doing the Departed and the 5th Transformers movie. One is art the other is definitely not but being able to do both kinds of movies makes you a more versatile and successful actor. Regardless of whether you or I like the genre involved.

Just checked Parv. Race comes down to it for his first Superstars match (9-27-86) so Bock is out.