thebrainfollower

I would NOT have put money on that. Someone was channel surfing the month Harley Race debuted lol

I think your list is TRYING to be more scientific Parv. The acting comparison is deeply flawed however. Wrestlers do a LOT more than wrestle to determine how great they are to me. It should be EVERYTHING they do when they are in character in anything, film, stage, TV anything for actors. But for wrestlers you're changing it to JUST in ring performances which is only PART of the overall performance of a wrestler, especially in the US. It's tough because no SANE actor is in character all the time. Adam Driver isn't doing SNL as Kylo Ren. But EVERYTHING he does in character counts as determining his worth as an actor. Same for any actor. For wrestler........nope just a PART of their performance counts. See the problem?

I know. ALWAYS been the WWF generic king theme. What's it called? A Jim creation?

One thing I think plays in Trish's favor that no one talks about is versatility. None of the other divas were able to do both T and A matches AND be taken seriously as a wrestler. Lita did I wanna say one B and P match and Victoria did a handful towards the end of her run when she was a jobber. Trish on the other hand had to have a lingerie match with Terri Runnels, then fight Jazz in a submission based match the next week. She had to face Stacy Keibler in a mud match then Victoria in a hardcore brawl after that. That she was able to swtich back and forth and the audience eventually accepted her in both roles is pretty amazing. No other diva was able to do that EVER. They took out those sorts of matches in 2008 (thankfully) and no one's had to try since because it's a pretty absurd thing to pull off. Nobody ever asked Hogan to have a tuxedo match with Mr. Fuji or Ric Flair to have one with Jim Cornette in 89 but Trish was expected to do both and excel in both and work with 2 totally different groups of workers. She was the only person they had to pull something good out of both wrestlers and models and that takes real talent.

That's fair enough. But no one would call it "Greatest US President". I say changing it to "greatest worker ever" rather than greatest wrestler ever would at least be a nod in the right direction. And it would still be the GWE.

I WISH I knew what the WWF king music was actually. Dave Wolfe wrote Jive Soul Bro

Like the finale the best, the first second and the HG for everyone I suspect, the draw, the third.

If this project were re-named something other than Greatest Wrestler ever I don't think my problems or my strange approach to doing it (because I wouldn't participate) would be brought up. But the thing is and no one's really addressed this head on, is that calling it Greatest Wrestler ever and limiting it to in ring work takes out part of what a wrestler needs and is expected to have in the largest and most successful market in wrestling history. By a mile. The people who do so either say "don't care" or argue there's no way to come up with ONE objective way to rate pro wrestlers so they just decided to pick "in ring work" because......well.............that's whats important to them. Or it's what they see as comparable everywhere. But it's NOT. The expectations of audiences are different. The work schedule is massively different and that's just hugely important. Anyone who thinks the best Japanese guys could have had the same quality working 300 nights a year is flat out lying. So it's different and you have to adjust. I just can't help but feeling concerned that the adjustment is to rate what the very people making the list like. You're mostly not WWF fans. I am and Hogan will be in my top 20 because darn it the footage IS there to show him as one of the most important, if not the most important, wrestlers of all time. But this is supposed to be a project of epic scale looking back over the history of what's available for knowledge of how good a wrestler was. Imagine if, for instance, a US historian poll about US Presidents decided that foreign policy was consistent and domestic policy was not. So therefore it considered foreign and ONLY foreign policy. You'd have a massive bias (and towards 20th century Presidents particularly) that would render the whole project totally useless. No historian worth his salt would participate. Yet that's a variation of what most of you are doing here. And I'm not saying this to knock you. It's BECAUSE I respect the experts of PWO on pro wrestling as much as I respect say Arthur Schlesinger (Dated example, but one most of you will have heard of I bet) as a Presidential historian that this bothers me. I dunno I doubt anyone will get what I'm trying to say. Most people think I'm nuts for putting someone like Trish Stratus, who I will contend was the best at what she did (women's wrestling in the US) of all time and therefore goes on the list, albeit towards the bottom. Maybe we're just speaking a different language. Though oddly I think Johnny Sorrow would get this and he's not participating which makes me think maybe it would be better if I just pulled out and left it at that. I'm not sure but this continues to disturb my senses as a historian (which I teach) I will say this. I think there IS a happy medium. You should try to consider how important a wrestler is, how great their look, promo and ability to manipulate a crowd and you SHOULD try to include every style and genre that got over even if you hate it. I don't like lucha. I just don't. But Negro Casas and El Satanico are in my top 15 and most likely top 10. I am a WWF guy and only Bret Hart and Randy Savage have a shot at my top 10 (unless you count Flair, Lawler, Funk, etc, but I don't think anyone's putting them in for their WWF work). But to stop tooting my own horn, it's well over half US workers (about 65-70) or US based workers at least. So I'm probably failing at the very thing I'm trying to do with this list more than anyone.

If Parv does math his way to the title you will never be the same Johnny.

I don't know if I've ever heard a specific answer to this, but I think it goes back to Parv's general point (which I've believed for years as well FWIW) that the WWF had a slow gradual evolution from 84 to the end of the decade into what Vince's vision was. The 84 TV is much the same as the 83 TV with different talent is one example of my point. Music for nearly every wrestler is another key but it was not every wrestler. At some point in 1990 they lost (or gave up) the rights to Jive Soul Bro. As a result you rarely if ever see Warlord or Power and Glory coming to the ring, even for a squash match. They are already there and hence don't need music.

If that's the case we're in for one lousy Mania. Putting Taker and Brock each over a pair of young talent doesn't really help either.

Much appreciated. I only caught 92-early 93 SMW courtesy of youtube, the odd matches here and there and the DVD's released so this is a special treat indeed.

Hate DX as much as Parv. Liked 1-2-3 Kid until he left for WCW, have no use for Dogg, Gunn or Chyna, HHH is my least favorite person ever in wrestling. Shawn has talent yeah and that's it.

Johnny as far as not doing "good" cards, I would say this, don't do a GOOD card with GOOD commentary. On the other hand if the announce team is Pritchard, McGuirk and Doughtery you are doing us ALL a favor by dubbing them out.

I think you guys are doing the best job you possibly can with the material, spoofing it while still covering the historical elements where needed. Will give it a listen if you want your work picked apart, but honestly this was a blast to listen to from beginning to end and I really enjoyed it. I'd like a Hulkamania era house show or two covered.

WOOT! These are great

Vader was not a member. Prior to Nitro my viewing of WCW was sporadic at best. Usually I was busy early Saturday nights with friends or something from when we got cable (July of 93) and could have watched them. So I caught a couple of the segments in King Curtis' cave or whatever that was. Then followed the end of the storyline against Hogan on Nitro, which evolved into them and the Horsemen against Hogan and Savage before Hogan left in April. I've heard Sullivan say the cheesiness of this angle was deliberate, that he had to give Hogan something he totally liked and was comfortable with in order to convince Hogan to trust him for a later heel turn. Sometimes he claims it was to convince him to join the NWO, but the timing of that makes no sense as no one would have thought Hall and Nash would jump in July of 95 when this story started. I think the basic truth of "give Hogan something he likes so he'll work with me later" is valid. I wonder also if Sullivan wasn't so cooperative just to show Hogan how totally out of touch he was, and how the only result of pushing his unstoppable Superman act (which reached heights in 96 undreamed of in the WWF) would be more and more boos.

Yeah he will.

The European tours were actually good money makers. Guys would do them and THEN get canned as a kindness from Vince, nothing roped in about them. Except for the Warlord who legit freaked out during one at being away from home for so long.

Can't argue with that Parv.

It's also the match where Dino became a Bret Hart fan, if you believe Bret's book.

Yes but as I said in my post Parv that's a UK or European exclusive Coliseum Video. It was never released in the US. I have a full set of them either original (about 120 or so) or as online rips. The 4 UK PPV's from the Hogan era (October of 89, April of 91, October 91 and April 92) never had US releases though odd matches here and there turned up on CHV's from time to time.

I dunno Johnny I've seen plenty of WWF Jake matches with long stretches with a bored as all heck crowd. And then there's the blindfold match which is a masterclass in psychology.

Bret-Bravo with dark hair isn't on any US CHV but it might have been a UK one.

I'll go for it. Just have to buy a headset.