thebrainfollower

I agree with most of this Jerry but here is the difference. In 1988 if Crockett had ordered Flair to job he would have had to do so or be fired. In 1997 Hogan could have laughed in Bischoff's face and nothing could have been done (That too is Bischoff's fault though). Sorry I still believe Bischoff was NOT in on the "fast" count and justified all this to make himself NOT look like a moral coward, a mark and a tool of Hogan and then Nash.

Again in order to believe Bischoff you have to believe that A) they knew for the course of a year there was a problem and Sting would not work out as champion and they kept the match on the books for that whole year despite Luger being RED HOT and never bothered to change the match and C) they then on or near that day, came up with a finish so bad it did more to bring back the WWF than anything I can think of outside Austin and Tyson and a finish that benefited NO other babyface because they undercut Bret at that moment as well. BS. I don't believe it. It's always the same stuff with Hogan and his cronies. They do everything they can to justify their view which is that Hulk Hogan never will and never should job and should ALWAYS be the top guy. They did the same stuff in TNA more than 10 years later and Hogan wasn't even a wrestler then.

Gotcha. I don't trust Bischoff about anything where Hogan is involved. If they had known this for a YEAR they could have gone in another direction long before Starrcade. They did not. That proves to me their story is made up nonsense, created to make Hogan, who is well known as Bischoff's meal ticket, NOT look like the politician he was.

I guess but I think playing a Crow like character with a deep tan and roided up muscles make ZERO sense. I am not sure what was going on in Sting's head at the time so maybe you're right. Or maybe Sting could see what Hogan was going to do to him and was depressed it was happening AGAIN. I don't know, neither do you only Sting does. But anyone trusting HULK FREAKING HOGAN about why he changed his mind and got out of a job, I want THAT person on my jury if I ever go up up murder charges.

Sorry goc but I don't buy that. Hogan didn't put Sting over because Hogan is a mark who hates doing a job and didn't want to. How do you know how Sting is gonna work BEFORE the match when Sting had not wrestled in over a year? Because his physique and tan weren't as great. BS. Hogan didn't job because Hogan cares only about Hogan.

I would have done the same Parv UNLESS there was compelling evidence that Lex was drawing like gangbusters as champ. I might have even tried a double turn at Starrcade and had Flair regain the belt at the next PPV.

My definition of work rate has been, and always will be, everything a wrestler does immediately before, during and after a match. I used to say "in the ring" but since not all matches start and end there I've changed it slightly.

I am not Kris but I can guarantee that by 88 Crockett could have put the belt on your grandma Parv and there's not a darn thing the NWA could have done about it.

Firefox, Chrome and IE. could not get it to run on any of them. I use Windows 8. Ended up trying EVERYTHING with their tech team at launch and we could not get it to work

As to my Summerslam 93 point Lex at that point WASN'T that hot. Sting was the hottest wrestler around until the moment he appeared in the ring. It was so bad when Hogan pinned Sting I said to friends "That's a fake Sting, the real Sting is gonna come down from the rafters now, restart match and DESTROY Hogan". Sting at Starrcade needed to be UT in HITC. A terminator who's gonna destroy the heel, sell NOTHING and make it clear he's enjoying himself doing both at every moment.

So then Parv, do you think Flair went to bat all those times for Sting because he knew this and was being smart? I've always wondered because Flair and co saw something in Sting that's just not there. I watched most PPV's and clashes with your and Chad's podcasts and could not be more in agreement with you guys about Lex Luger. Or is it just, Lex grew up, was a businessman and Flair most definitely is not.

I think Sleaze has convinced me and made the case. What Sting needed to be was HITC Undertaker during this feud.

As to JDW's point, yes you are right. Not all styles are equal. That stuff Necro does IS garbage IMO.

You think this is bad. I belong to the Doctor Who Gallifrey Base message board, where we get banned, shut down, threads closed, so often it's not worth the time for me to risk a post. And once on the classic horror film board I dared state my Elm Street theory (That Elm Street's success was that it's an UNINTENDED AIDS parallel). One guy got so offended he wished that I GOT AIDS to learn "how wrong I was".

I wish I could get ANY of my browsers to stream the matches but no dice

The Bret-Andre match on his last set is a youtube rip

I actually thought that was one of the rules of the project, we were only allowed to talk about what people did in ring. We could not take into account promo skills, impact, merch sales, cultural impact or how long they were on top. If I am wrong about that I profoundly apologize. Either way I feel while I have watched a lot more 70's-90's All and New Japan, I am still too weak on Lucha and Joshi that I take MY opinions seriously, let alone expect anyone else too.

I remember it as seeming like Sting wrestling like someone who would rather be somewhere else, but I guess I blame that on him realizing Hogan had destroyed his big chance for good at Starrcade. Maybe I'm being unfair.

While I agree with you completely Loss, I actually think that fact is in Sting's favor. It's pretty hard to stay even as over as he was when year after year after year you're failing and never getting the job done. We talk about Luger, but Starrcade 97 IMO did more damage to Sting's career than Summerslam 92 did to Lex's.

Personally I would be FAR more interested in learning people's top 100 favorites than their votes for 100 GWE esp if we are going on just work rate.

I did not know that. I am not sure what they can do with Dana after being squashed like a bug at the last big show, but if those were her legit first matches they were okay. I would have held her back from TV for a lot longer though if it were me.

That is spot on logic Loss. Sting was a smart man staying where he was.

To one comment about Trish looking like the sort of woman who wouldn't give you the time of day, while she looks like that, having met her a few times that's not true. I found it funny that when WWE created a boyfriend for her in the Mickie James storyline, they used a male model, when in fact she's been dating and then married to the same guy since high school and he's not exactly Brad Pitt. Agree about Lita. WWE did everything in its power to make her a star, it's not their fault she spent over 3 years of her 6.5 year career injured, stayed sloppy and somewhat dangerous (she was STILL doing the moonsault to the knees when she left) and had very poor judgment. I'd say things turned out about how they should have to be honest. Trish encouraging WWE to search for models to find the next Trish Stratus..........yeah that's a problem. It still haunts them today, as someone like Dana Brooke is basically Trish mixed with Beth Phoenix without a quarter of the talent of either sadly.

HHH's 2002-2005 run for me by a mile. I feel like literally half the WTBBP guests start with "I used to be a fan then HHH's reign began". It was what turned me off from being a fan. I'd still watch matches now and then for people I liked but stopped watching regularly due to HHH and his ego.

To the bigger point, Victoria, Jazz and Molly might have been better in ring talent than Trish (I think Jazz is horribly overrated and barely understand selling at all) but they certainly weren't better performers. Victoria was absolutely terrible as a face and couldn't get fans to care about her in the slightest. Jazz likewise, plus Jazz couldn't cut a promo well at all, had to be given a mouthpiece. Molly's a better case, she certainly started out good overall, but slid into playing a character that would not be able to work face. And like it or not, the perception was she let her appearance go in a promotion that is also about look. Trish in 2004 was the most over heel on the roster. Fans genuinely wanted to see her lights punched out week in and week out and her work was just astounding at playing her character (HHH wishes he could get that sort of reaction at the time). Her promos were great as well, some of the best heel work on the mic that year by far (into 2005 as well). Her in ring work was usually not quite as good as Molly or Victoria but at least with her feud with Lita, fans really cared instead of the dead silence you would get in a Molly vs. Victoria match. Plus Trish looked liked an improved version of the Pamela Anderson type that dominated looks in the mid 90's. She certainly COULD have coasted on her looks like Sable, Stacy and Torrie and still had quite a career but she had enough respect for wrestling and herself to work her hardest to become, by the standards of her time and promotion (which are the only reasonable standard to apply, not everything is All Japan) a very good talent overall. The fact that not ONE female has been able to step up as a face (plenty have as heels though) and supplant her a decade later should tell you all you need to know. I think there is a resentment there in Lita's case, though it's not really justified. Like it or not her cheating on Matt doomed her to a legit heel status and the slut chants. Matt was seen as "one of us who did well" by the average WWE fan at the time and she did her career serious damage. I also think that's another point in Trish's favor, unlike most divas at the time (Stacy Torrie, Lita) or since (though the NXT women seem to be avoiding this pitfall) she never got romantically involved with a wrestler (at least not publicly) but instead stayed with her high school sweetheart and married him right after retiring. Those things also earn points in making your own career.