El Boricua

I was not expecting to see that at the end of today's WWC show. Never thought he'd be back.

Hugo Savinovich had his first match at 14.

I think Rude would have been better as the one feuding with Hogan instead of Mr. Perfect. The Piper feud really didn't do much for him in the long run. The other thing they could have done to set-up some heels for 90 would have been to have the Powers of Pain go into full time singles in the summer of 89. They were basically wrestling as singles on house shows half of the time during that period anyway and wouldn't do anything of note as a team before they split up.

Quick question for Mookieghana: Would it make sense to look at wrestlers as draws in term of standard deviations above or below their contemporaries?

I'm not surprised Carlos Colon missed again. I agree that he's not in the appropriate category (it should really be just Pacific/Oceania), but feel that if he were placed in the U.S category (which is the one that makes the most sense of the existing ones) he would fare worse. There could be a Caribbean/South America bucket, but I don't know if there are any other candidates you could put there (Jack Veneno?, Relampago Hernandez? someone from Guatemala? other Puerto Rican wrestlers? Karadagian's already in).

Ah, polls and surveys, now we're in my wheelhouse. Looking at that data, the first question that springs to mind is how were each of those terms (lapsed, light casual, etc.) defined. The second would be how the question was phrased. The third would be how the respondent selection was done. Finally, how was the sample constructed (was it a rep sample based on census data, a customer list database, etc.). Without knowing these details I wouldn't know how seriously to take the survey data.

If not for injury and family legal problems, Windham may have been an option.

El-P, you have been a brave adonis, a cadillac of men with this trek. May you grace us with another project in the future, albeit one with more personal enjoyment for you.

I won't say it's not a possibility, but I'm not convinced that the reaction to Savage at the 10/87 SNME is what started the wheels turning in Vince's head for a possible Hogan vs. Savage main event down the line. Hogan vs. Savage had already been considered previously as a possible WrestleMania 2 main event. Just a month or so before, when Honky won the I-C title, Savage congratulated Honky and stated that he intended to go after Hogan and the WWF title. If anything, DiBiase coming in and Steamboat falling into the doghouse may have delayed Hogan and Savage matching up. I do agree that the weirdest part of the whole sequence is the apparent lack of punishment for Honky for refusing to drop the IC title to Savage. If it apparently was thought that DiBiase was a weak draw and Savage was not the initial plan (and may have been seen as an unproven as draw at that point), it's possible that Vince kept Honky with the belt because he was a 'proven' draw and may have helped the gates with Hogan out. Yes, you're right that the call was made there. It was set up as something huge, but having watched it again, the huge moment (at least in my view, the moment can be interpreted differently by others) is Savage extending his hand to a man he had had a rivalry with since arriving to the WWF and Hogan accepting. I don't see it as them forming an alliance, I see it sold as the Mania and the Madness are face to face, there is a show of gratitude by the now face Savage and eventual acceptance by Hogan of the gesture (the call is uttered just before Hogan starts to extend his hand to shake Savage's offered hand). Just one month before Savage was ready to go after Hogan and the title, so it's a bit surprising for this development (Savage offering thanks to Hogan) to occur. One thing that I wonder is if the decision to go with Savage had already been made when they had the Savage/DiBiase match at the 03/88 SNME. I can't quite figure the reasoning for running the eventual finals on free TV two weeks before WrestleMania 4. Would that have been the originally planned finish for the tournament if they had gone with DiBiase? Again, I remember that the winner of the tournament would get the title, but there was no mention it had to be by pinfall or submission. Was it to set-up Hogan's eventual involvement by having him save Savage here? It had been six months since Hogan had saved Savage at the 10/87 SNME, and they had not interacted since then. It could have been done to not have it seem so out of left field that Hogan would get involved at WrestleMania 4, but it just seems to me that it's a bit unnecessary to do that. Just with having DiBiase and Andre involved in the finals would make it plausible enough for Hogan to get involved and help Savage. It also makes three times that Hogan saves Savage without Savage returning the favor to Hogan. That may make him look a bit weak that he needs this constant saving/help/bailing out (even if it's against larger numbers). If anything, Hogan saving Savage at the 03/88 SNME would seem to be a more logical set-up to explain (hypothetically) why Savage would come to Hogan's aid at WrestleMania 4 and return the favor. It would also have set-up Savage's involvement with DiBiase if he was to be the challenger while Hogan was out. Or maybe the Savage/DiBiase match was just to create fear that DiBiase may be winning in the same manner at WrestleMania 4 and have Hogan prevent that. Who knows? Three other points before I stop rambling: I don't quite believe that DiBiase's 'shadow run' is what torpedoed his promised reign. From the Main Event to Tunney's announcement there were only 7 days in between. It seems surprising to blame DiBiase for being a poor draw when it is such short notice to advertise him as the 'champ' and such a short window of time to allow for ticket sales. It's likely that most of the tickets to these shows had already been sold before the Main Event occurred. The shows after the Boston Garden and Spectrum shows on the 6th may be down simply because Hogan may not have been advertised as being on those cards when tickets were first put on sale. The heel had won the main event of Survivor Series, but they had Hogan run Andre off and pose for the crowd. I suspect that they may have done something similar if DiBiase had won at WrestleMania 4, with Hogan and Savage running DiBiase off. I have a suspicion that the planned main event of SummerSlam at some point may have been Hogan vs. DiBiase. It's the first time running a PPV in the summer and they may have felt it necessary to have a strong main event to ensure the PPV's success. The switch to Savage and his taking off as champ likely made those plans change.

Dooley and Loss are right that too much is made out of Hogan and Savage forming an alliance at the October 87 SNME. At that point, Savage had not yet fully turned face. The Hogan save and subsequent handshake was just to cement Savage's face turn. After that they really only had the following interaction until the March 88 SNME: WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - November 10, 1987 WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, & Jim Duggan defeated King Kong Bundy, Rick Rude, & King Harley Race WWF @ Huntsville, AL - Von Braun Civic Center - January 5, 1988 (8,500) WWF Superstars taping: WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man, Bret Hart, & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart) in a handicap match when Hogan pinned Honky with the legdrop WWF @ Montrael, Quebec - Forum - February 8, 1988 Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, & Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man, Bret Hart, & Jim Neidhart (w/ Andre the Giant) Basically it's only one random house show six man tag main event (Hogan and two top faces against the Heenan family), a TV taping dark match that plays off the October 87 SNME three months after it happened, and virtually a repeat of the January match a month later at a house show main event that adds Steamboat and Andre to the mix (I'm bummed that there is no video off this one). During that time, Hogan had a more consistent and acknowledged partnership with Bam Bam Bigelow than Randy Savage. On the March 88 SNME is when they cross paths again on TV, with Hogan coming to Savage's aid again against Andre, DiBiase and Virgil. It's only due to hindsight (and the way the WWF highlights moments when looking back) that that handshake in October gets played up more as the birth of the Mega Powers, when at the time it was just a way to cement Savage's face turn and nothing more.

One detail that stands out for me is that they said that the tournament winner would be the new WWF champion. I don't recall it being mentioned that it had to be won via pinfall or submission. Would it have been possible for DiBiase to have won a hypothetical final with Hogan via DQ or CO, winning the tournament and, thus, the title? Another thing I've found a bit weird is that they ran the eventual finals matchup on TV one week before on SNME. Never did quite understand why they did that. They also did something similar with Warrior and Rude prior to SummerSlam 90.

Fantastic stuff! I'm still in disbelief that that's Ricky Morton.

https://twitter.com/BretHart/status/392684743956787200 I wonder what gems he has there? Didn't Bret say he bought his Stampede stuff?

Sting vs. Rude from Nov. 19, 1991 could be an addition to this list.

I'd say yes, the fallow period is usually said to be the mid-90's, with 93 as the starting point. Looking at the cards, I'd be careful about calling the next to last match as the semi-main for drawing purposes. It looks like the semi-main would sometimes be placed in the middle of the line-up before intermission or to pace the card. Undertaker vs. Sid is one that strikes me as a semi-main even though it has a middle of the card placement. Even if the WWF brand name was hot, if you keep going back the name alone would not be enough if there isn't anything attached to the brand that the people want. You have to have something the people care about/want or they won't go. At least in theory.

Agree that this is a great post and a terrific definition of what characteristics constitute a territory. I do have one question. Would you consider both promotions in Knoxville in 1978 (Southeastern and ICW) territories?

I've always liked the Thunderdome tag match from 89.

When I get a bit more caught up with the road to La Gran Guerra, I'll see if I can add some details to what led up to this match. This was the main event of the first day of Aniverasrio 98. The very next day (the second and final day of Aniversario 98), they had a rematch which saw Ray regain the title. From there, they would continue to feud and it would eventually result in Carly Colon's (Carlito) debut as a wrestler.

As requested, I'm cross-posting this from the terriories thread: As for WWC, I have to clarify the 'went under' comment I made in another thread. All Star Wrestling did shut down in 93, but WWC went bankrupt at some point in the mid 90's. The times that it seems most likely that the bankruptcy occurred are in 93 or in 95 post Eddie Gilbert's death . Part of the problem in being sure when this happened is that the promotion did not stop airing their TV show or running cards for any notable period of time throughout this whole period. Basically, the point the bankruptcy happened is when they stopped referring to themselves as Capitol Sports Promotions (with their matches sanctioned by the WWC) and were just simply the WWC. So they really didn't stop having a presence, although they did have economical problems and went through bankruptcy. The bankruptcy was also not common knowledge, so it was a surprise to quite a few people when the bankruptcy and closure of Capitol Sports was mentioned by Victor Quiñonez in an interview in 2003. The way he frames it in the interview, it sounds a bit like Carlos Colon and Victor Jovica took advantage of the bankruptcy declaration to force out everyone else and reincorporate as the sole owners. Quiñonez said that he owned 25% and that Abdullah owned 10%. According to the interview, he said that they weren't paid for their shares after the bankruptcy reorganization and reincorporation. So it may have just been a way for Jovica and Carlos to get full control of the promotion again. I'm not completely sold on some of the details of Quiñonez's account (he also says he left for Japan in 1989 and was there for 10 years with his own company, not sure if he had another company over there besides IWA which started in 94), but nobody denies now that the name change was due to the economical issues and reincorporation. In recent years, WWC has run a couple shows outside of PR, but not that many or with any consistency. They had a show in Florida a couple of years ago and also had one in either the Virgin Islands or Trinidad. Also, I'm not sure if they've done co-promoted shows in the Dominican Republic or just had talent appear on some cards over there.

I've always thought the distinction between a territory and a regional promotion is down to place and time. It revolves around the NWA being the dominant power in the wrestling landscape. Outside of being a promoter for a determined area that the NWA would recognize as being your domain (be it as a member or as a non-member whose territory was recognized and respected by the NWA), what difference is there between what was a territory company then and a regional company now? Nowadays, NWA members aren't called territories. Conversely, the 'outlaw' feds from the territory days would be called regional companies today. What really muddles the waters is the avenues through which the feds can promote and broadcast their product to fans today. As for WWC, I have to clarify the 'went under' comment I made in another thread. All Star Wrestling did shut down in 93, but WWC went bankrupt at some point in the mid 90's. The times that it seems most likely that the bankruptcy occurred are in 93 or in 95 post Eddie Gilbert's death . Part of the problem in being sure when this happened is that the promotion did not stop airing their TV show or running cards for any notable period of time throughout this whole period. Basically, the point the bankruptcy happened is when they stopped referring to themselves as Capitol Sports Promotions (with their matches sanctioned by the WWC) and were just simply the WWC. So they really didn't stop having a presence, although they did have economical problems and went through bankruptcy. The bankruptcy was also not common knowledge, so it was a surprise to quite a few people when the bankruptcy and closure of Capitol Sports was mentioned by Victor Quiñonez in an interview in 2003. The way he frames it in the interview, it sounds a bit like Carlos Colon and Victor Jovica took advantage of the bankruptcy declaration to force out everyone else and reincorporate as the sole owners. Quiñonez said that he owned 25% and that Abdullah owned 10%. According to the interview, he said that they weren't paid for their shares after the bankruptcy reorganization and reincorporation. So it may have just been a way for Jovica and Carlos to get full control of the promotion again. I'm not completely sold on some of the details of Quiñonez's account (he also says he left for Japan in 1989 and was there for 10 years with his own company, not sure if he had another company over there besides IWA which started in 94), but nobody denies now that the name change was due to the economical issues and reincorporation. In recent years, WWC has run a couple shows outside of PR, but not that many or with any consistency. They had a show in Florida a couple of years ago and also had one in either the Virgin Islands or Trinidad. Also, I'm not sure if they've done co-promoted shows in the Dominican Republic or just had talent appear on some cards over there. Ultimately, the last surviving territory comes down to how you define it. If it's the last open one still a member of the NWA when the territory term became no longer relevant, I think it's Portland. If it's the last one open that was running a territory that had been recognized by the NWA, it's either USWA (if the dual offices in Memphis and Dallas doesn't disqualify it) or WWC. It's an interesting thought exercise. Dylan (or anyone else for that matter), if you have any specific questions about the WWC/IWA war or anything else, please go ahead and ask them in the PR thread. I'll answer them as best as I can.

The Bob Backlund appearances were entertaining. There's also evil Tony Schiavone.

I wonder what could have bested this show on Robocop's resume.

The only issue there is that I'm not sure there is a wildly inappropriate time to offer Harley Race a drink. Maybe after he went through the table and injured himself?

Its usually damned if you, damned if you don't for WWC regarding how they handle mentions of Brody. Since the whole purpose of the video was to pay a moment of respect to those individuals who passed away that were part of WWC in some way during the past 40 years, I feel Brody should have been included. Still, no matter what they decided, there are a lot of people who contributed to WWC (in some cases immensely) that also deserved a brief moment of rememberance and it was a nice gesture to give them that.

And got sued for that.