W2BTD

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/08/introduction-changes-to-the-ballot-observer-hall-of-fame/ It’s the first of many Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame podcasts were planning on doing over the next few weeks, in this inaugural episode we’re joined by David Bixenspan of WhatCulture.com, Figure Four Weekly and Fighting Spirit Magazine to introduce the ballot, discuss changes, new candidates and much more!

Ricky Morton not knowing the proper name for the O'Connor Roll. At least in the case of Colt Cabana.

I don't understand how anybody who finds something as cartoonish as Kamala overtly and uncomfortably racist can enjoy any American wrestling. How do you deal with Slick or Mr Fuji or Shelton Benjamin's momma, or the bevy of Nazi Germans, or decades of WWE race baiting, or New Jack in SMW, or Cryme Tyme, or JYD in chains or a million other blatantly racist gimmicks? I'm not telling you what you should find offensive or not, it just feels like a very odd tipping point.

Rock n Roll Express are my one & only wrestler lock right now. Everybody else I voted for last year either got in, moved to a category I don't vote on, or I changed my mind (I have changed my stance on drawing in UFC when it comes to Brock being relevant to a pro wresting HOF, and without that, I don't think he's close to worthy yet). So I have nine spots open, and find myself seriously considering, conveniently enough, nine candidates. I doubt i'll end up going the full ten, though. I have four non-wrestler spots accounted for, with three candidates in play for the last slot, which I will likely use.

Also, i'm pretty sure i'm responsible for getting King Kong Czaja added to the ballot, which means I should probably vote for him just to give me an excuse to vote for that ridiculously constructed miscellaneous region so I can finally vote for Colon.

I'm voting for my top ten (or whatever number I end up voting for), with zero regard for who may fall off of the ballot. Those chips will just have to fall wherever they fall. At first I thought the 50% was a really high threshold, but then I thought about what this new wrinkle is based on, the Baseball HOF, and after the 15 (now 10) years, they kick you off regardless of your percentage, even if you only miss by a single vote. So dave is kind of being lenient here. You can stick around beyond the 15 if you are on the cusp. I could go either way on dropping guys after 15. The ballot was getting crowded, so I can see why it was implemented. And it's not as if people can't (and won't) be brought back.

A Rick Steiner - Not crazy about any of these guys, but Steiner is the best athlete and i'll take Steiner Brother matches over Demolition or the Roadies. I hated post Steiners Rick with a passion. Smash Animal B Bam Bam Bigelow - Easiest #1 choice in any of the groups. He laps the other two. All time great big man. Terry Gordy - Best stuff is in All Japan while working with all time greats. Pretty average in the U.S., I think his World Class stuff is overrated (not bad, just overrated). Earthquake - Does nothing for me. Bored me to tears as a 12 year old, bores me to tears now. C 2 Cold Scorpio - This group is so hard. I could really put them in any order and be happy about it. Sabu - Sabu is unique, there is nobody else like him, and I think people who pick on the botches or repeating spots or wacky match structure are missing the point of what he was. Sabu might be my favorite wrestler to ever watch live. You couldn't take your eyes off of him. There was a real sense of danger in a Sabu match, both for his opponent and for himself. You held your breath at every dive. The botches are part of the charm. You either get it, or you don't. I get it. Tajiri - Love Tajiri, particularly his ECW stuff. D Eddie Guerrero - Best all around from the start to finish of his career. Shawn Michaels - Connected with crowds better than Benoit, sold & bumped his ass off, great in the big match. Chris Benoit - Overrated. I like him just fine, but to me he was always overrated. Love his intensity.

Big Show is roughly nine billion times more talented in every single way than Andre the Giant and isn't a fraction of the star. Chief Jay Strongbow was a semi main eventer forever in MSG and isn't half as talented as the guys who get cut from developmental before cracking NXT, let alone RAW. He also always looked like absolute shit, the antithesis of tough or athletic by any stretch of the definition. That takes nothing away from Andre or Strongbow. It is not fair to compare them to 2014 standards if they peaked in 1977 or whatever. The standards have changed, a guy like Strongbow couldn't cut it in the same company today beyond TV jobber at best and would certainly never sniff #2 babyface. Los Ben Dejos are a low/mid level indie tag team. A team like Los Ben Dejos or Zero Gravity on a random card in 1979 would blow away crowds with their "death defying" moves and nothing that came after them could possibly follow. In 2014, they are opening match fodder on small indie shows, and cant crack an ROH or PWG lineup. I know this is Bizarro World where Tiger Mask supposedly isn't any good (grab a hold, kid), but there was a reason he was so over in 1982, and it was because he was way ahead of the standards of his day. Same for Dynamite. Neither stack up to guys like Ricochet or Ibushi or Flamita or even people who were never stars like Takuya Sugi (Yoshitsune/El Blazer/etc). And forget the juniors that TM & Dynamite left in the dust, most of whom would have trouble breaking in today. Jimmy Snuka's basic leap off the top rope made him the preeminent high flyer of his day. Snuka coming off the cage is an iconic moment. Now guys do moonsaults and SSP's and all sorts of wacky shit off of the cage, even larger guys like Rikishi & non flyers like Kurt Angle were doing stuff Snuka would never dream of, and that was a decade ago. Snuka's state of the art stuff from 1983 would happen on RAW today, and you'd forget about it a week later. Or by the next match. There is either a massive disconnect in this thread (which is what I think is happening), or I am not being articulate enough. I am open minded to just about any wrestling related debate, and even when I disagree with something I can usually see why people see the other side. On this, I am absolutely baffled that there are really smart people who I have a ton of respect for who are failing to see what I think is something incredibly obvious. We're all just talking in circles now, unfortunately.

If anybody in this thread arguing that standards don't change ever uses the phrase "The (insert match here) match doesn't hold up", prepare to be called out. I'M WATCHING YOU.

Even in the EVOLVE time warp snooze fests this weekend, there was evidence of changed standards. Thatcher popped up from a piledriver so egregiously that if it happened in a New Japan match or if Davey Richards did it, this website would implode (this also brings up the issue of double standards, and using "selling" as a criticism crutch, but those are both different thread topics). If we could find a way to calculate the yearly percentage of executed piledrivers that ended a match, that percentage would steadily drop from the moment the piledriver was invented until today. It used to be instant death. Now even the guy who many people here is the gold standard of in ring storytelling no sells that shit like a hip toss. For the hundredth time. No, the basic building blocks of what makes a good wrestling match don't really change. It's the means to achieve those building blocks that are constantly changing, progressing, and evolving. Practically any wrestling match from 1974 would look woefully dated and out of place on a modern show. Things move forward. Time stands still for no one. This takes nothing away from the past. Things are to be judged in context. Context is everything.

Plenty of stuff in that library for docs/DVD's alone. Sting was there for so long that we are to the point you need the TNA footage for a complete doc of his career. Same for Dudley's, particularly Bully Ray. Can't tell a complete Angle story without TNA, where he's actually spent more years than he did in WWE. Hardy, Christian, and others did significant things there.

You're not supposed to punch in New Japan, it's "illegal". Punching is illegal, just like outside interference. Rules in wrestling exist to be broken. Punching is illegal everywhere. Sure, but it's something they all just adhere to, sort of like how they don't choke in WWE. It's something you see come up all of the time when people first start watching NJPW or haven't seen it in a while, because the forearm thing comes off so jarring & different. People understandably don't understand that it's just the way it is there, they don't do punches, they do forearms instead.

I think even harsh Tanahashi critics will enjoy his selling and overall performance vs Shibata, but i've been very wrong before when it comes to Tanahashi, so who knows. I hope every Naito match doesn't follow that AJ pattern of going after the cut. I think it gave AJ a real edge and the match felt very different than what you usually get in New Japan. If they do it again, it waters it down. I think AJ should have won. I still think he needs strong (clean) wins. Naito would have been perfect for this.

I'll try to come up with some stuff few have mentioned. Underrated: Satoshi Kojima to me is criminally underrated both historically and for what he's doing today. The Fantastics. Sure, everybody thinks they're pretty good, but I'd put them well ahead of several teams from that era (see below). '96 - '97 WWF right before the Attitude Era. Kevin Von Erich. Easily the best of the family imo, all things considered. Overrated: Midnight Express. Any version. I like Eaton/Lane best, and have nothing against the team really aside from the "best tag team ever" talk that you hear. They never blew me away at that level. Attitude Era. This was the only time period that successfully drove me away from American wrestling entirely, to the point I had to go back years later and rewatch the stuff I missed after I hand waved it to catch back up. I loathe everything about it and think it was all severely overrated, from the cheesy TV to Austin's repetitive segments & brawls. You've seen one RAW from that time, you've seen 'em all. You've seen one main event from that period, you've seen 'em all. Ladder matches. Edge. Good promo guy. So, so average in the ring. Jeff Hardy. The Brisco's. Jerry & Jack. Watching paint dry. Anything Flair ever did from the first WWF run onward. Flair died the second he showed up on WWF TV as a watered down parody of himself, and never recovered. David Von Erich. This guy sucked. I have no clue why he was seen as the chosen one of the three primary brothers. Worst look, worst promos (imagine the magnitude of this statement, and yes, I think Kerry was better if only because the unintentional dumb jock routine actually got over by accident), least interesting inside the ring. There are some guys I don't personally enjoy, but I see the appeal (Lawler). I will never, ever get the fascination with David Von Erich. Ever.

You're not supposed to punch in New Japan, it's "illegal". Also, i'm sitting here scratching my head at the idea of Gallows carrying anybody in New Japan, where his entire run has ranged from mediocre to flat out dreadful. And this coming from somebody who likes him. You mentioned it was your first time seeing him here, but trust me when I say he's been one of the five worst guys on the roster his entire run, and hasn't done much to change that on this tour. He's been better than Fale, but oh boy talk about low bars.

Night 4 is getting show of the year buzz. Great show, but if you are setting the bar that high it depends where you fall on Nagata/Nak & AJ/Naito. I thought those two matches were good, but short of great. Ishii/Honma was better than their bout at Dotaku. Tanahashi/Shibata was phenominal. To me these are the first serious MOTY contenders, since I wasn't as high on the three matches from Night 1 as others were and don't think Okada/Makabe was at that level either. Review, where i'm being blasted in multiple places for underrating things: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/07/26/new-japan-g1-climax-24-day-4-review-72614-two-classics/ Great show. Great tournament so far. Every show has ranged from good to great, all have been easy watches and a lot of fun. I rank them 4, 1, 2, 3.

RE: The DDT talk here. It's almost as if standards in wrestling are constantly shifting & changing over time. Still not sure why that basic point required a 20-page debate a few months ago.

Night 1: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/07/21/new-japan-g1-climax-24-night-one-review-results-721/ Night 2: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/07/23/new-japan-g1-climax-24-day-2-review-72314-in-new-japan-we-trust/ Tournament is off to a great start. Night 1 was a very good show, with an excellent second half. Okada/Styles was nowhere close to the best Styles match of all time, that's absurd. I don't even think it was the best match he's had against Okada. But it was very good. Night 2 far, far exceeded expectations and was one hell of a fun show all the way through. No great matches, but everything met or exceeded expectations with the possible exception of Anderson/Makabe which to me was flat. If the good shows on paper deliver as expected, and the bad shows on paper are as good as Night 2, this will be another great year.

I really, really hate to knock the Performance Center, as I really think there are a ton of great concepts being put into practice down there, but the fact of the matter is that for all of the praise WWE gets for their training system & NXT, currently the best young wrestlers with the most star potential reside in CMLL & Dragon Gate, and it isn't even close. I know very little about CMLL's training so maybe somebody can fill me in. From the best I can tell, they've collected some of the top young talent from around Mexico and featured them in a great tournament to get them over. I have no idea how many of them, if any, are "homegrown", or if that concept even exists in Mexico. Dragon Gate on the other hand has a facility that is probably not all that much unlike the Performance Center, albeit on the fraction of the budget. And to be fair, my primary complaint of WWEs training methods, teaching only one style and one way of doing things, probably applies to Dragon Gate as well due to their unique in ring style. The similarities even go as far as the monthly Dragon Gate "NEX" shows that are held at the training facility, featuring all of the young talent and allowing them to get in extra work in front of crowds. The difference, is nearly every current star on the Dragon Gate roster has gone on a long learning excursion. Tozawa in Texas, Shingo & YAMATO all over the United States, Eita, T-Hawk, & U-T in Mexico, etc. I'm sure Kotoka, Tominaga, Shimizu, etc will be sent off at some point as well. WWE thumbs their nose at the learning excursion, due to arrogance that their way is the only way, and to me that is a fatal flaw of their system. To me it's also why people like Zayn appear to be at an entirely different level than the rest of the people there. Zayn worked & learned how to get over all over the globe. Tyler Breeze will never have a chance to do that. Alexa Bliss will work abroad only if on a future WWE tour. This is a disservice to the talent, and to their own training methods. Maybe they should hire experienced, well traveled veterans to stay & work in NXT permanently. If they wont send people on excursions, bring the excursions to them. Say for instance KENTA. Instead of getting him ready for RAW, leave him down there. Let him work long programs with CJ Parker or whoever. All of the house shows. All of the TV. Every day in the gym. Hire a bunch of these guys as NXT roster mainstays, and pseudo trainers. Why is William Regal not active in the ring on every NXT house show? This is mental. Hire international veterans winding down, throw them a great salary, and leave them in Florida.

I guess 2011 WWE Superstars has to be brought up.

1996 ECW 2006 ROH 2012-2013 New Japan For nostalgic reasons, I will second 1989 WWF. 1989 JCP/WCW whatever you want to call it. Rewatching this now on the network, really enjoying. 1983 World Class is another focused watch i'm doing on the Network & elsewhere, and loving it. Can't narrow down All Japan to a "season", as that was more of an entire era. I think eventually people will look back on 2013 WWE as something really special in terms of in ring. Probably the best year of RAW ever between the ropes.

For me a great wrestler is somebody who consistently has great matches. And when I say great matches, I don't necessarily mean 5-star MOTY contenders, because that is an unfair standard as there are very few wrestlers put into a position to deliver those types of matches. I would probably consider Barry Howowitz a great wrestler. Same for Tomoaki Honma or Brad Armstrong or Akebono (at least this year he was) or Gail Kim or Too Cold Scorpio or Tyson Kidd. I consider most if not the entire Dragon Gate roster great wrestlers. All of these people are great at what they are asked to do and often exceed expectations. I do think in order to be an all time great, it helps tremendously to have the opportunity to deliver in long main event style matches on the biggest stages. This doesn't preclude somebody from being "great", but it certainly helps build the case. Life isn't always fair.

Unless you're a promoter, I have no idea why this would matter to you as a fan. I'm someone who is very interested in the business end of wrestling (right down to obsessively counting the number of fans at any show I go to), but to me that is entirely separate from the entertainment aspect. Having drawing power makes you a great draw, not a great wrestler. Just as there are actors who are great draws who are not great actors. Just as there are great actors or musicians who do not draw. If you truly believe what I quoted, then if you made a list of the greatest wrestlers of all time, it would be exactly the same as the list of the greatest draws. Which to me is absurd, and probably a little lazy, too.

1. Tomohiro Ishii 2. Flamita 3. The Fantastics 4. Ricochet 5. Kazuchika Okada

Do you happen to know the date on that Barnett comp? He usually cataloged them by date, unless you ended up with some 5th gen copy where the date was lost along the way. I have a pile of Barnett comps laying around somewhere, some of which I never got around to watching.