DMJ

TheBean commented in the Non-Thread Worthy thread that he wouldn't be surprised if Flair fell out of the top 10. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I don't think he'll be number one. Fair (to Flair) or not, I do think there is a threshold for how great one can be professionally at their peak and how much out-of-ring antics/post-peak performance can tarnish a legacy. Flair has both things working against him. Since 2016, any remaining "That's just Ric being Ric" goodwill has been thoroughly eroded away from the discourse about him and, to the second point, we also now have a wrestling landscape where guys 45+ are still putting on great matches. Flair's resume of good matches from roughly 96' to his retirement is pretty thin. Yes, there's better training now, wrestlers work considerably less, sports medicine has improved a ton in the past 20 years...but I think it can also be fairly said that Ric Flair was not a guy that was particularly great at adapting as he aged (and certainly not as well, say, AJ Styles or Rey Mysterio, who are both as old as Flair was in the latter half of the 90s, have plenty of bumps on their bump card, and routinely put on very good TV matches when called upon). Chris Jericho is 55 and for all the hate he gets, it's much easier to pull fun, quality matches from his past 5 years than it is to pull them from Ric's last 10. CM Punk is 47. Claudio is 45. I'm certainly not arguing that any of these wrestlers are better than Ric at their peak (though I think Styles and Mysterio will land in my top 12), but I do think these factors might play into how he ranks this year. Simply put, Flair being great for 10-15 years used to be much more impressive than it is now because we have guys like AJ, Rey, Punk, Jericho, La Parka, and probably a whole slew of Japanese and lucha wrestlers I don't even know about that have great matches spanning twice as long.

Steve Austin Terry Funk Bryan Danielson Bret Hart Ric Flair Rey Mysterio Jr. AJ Styles Eddie Guerrero Shawn Michaels Ricky Steamboat However...these are not "locked in" as I have a number of wrestlers I haven't ranked yet, including Misawa, Kawada, Akira Hokuto, Manami Toyota, Bull Nakano, Liger, and Aja Kong. I don't think every one of those names will land in the Top 10, but I could see 1 or 2 getting there. I also could see the ten already in there switching places. I think I wrote it somewhere else but I have really only started watching Japanese wrestling (Mexico is still a huge blind spot) in the past 12-18 months. I have a GWE Playlist I'm working through on YouTube and documenting all that I'm watching on my blog (Kwang The Blog) on top of continuing to play catch-up with the AEW PPVs and also the full TNA PPVs available on YouTube (I've basically dropped watching any WWE content at this point, though I'll probably feel the itch and watch the Rumble) and I mention this because I've sworn myself to only vote for wrestlers who I've reviewed 20 or more matches of. Now, at this point, I've seen 20+ Misawa, Hashimoto, Nakano, and probably Kawada matches...but I'm still going to hold out another few months before ranking them just so I can have as complete a picture as I can (ideally, anyone in my top 10 is someone who I've seen at least 40 matches of, good and bad). Ditto for La Parka and Tully Blanchard and some of the newer guys that I think are actively building a case or strengthening a case - Hangman, Swerve, Ospreay, Darby, Mercedes Mone, Takeshita, Zach Sabre Jr. - to be on my list.

Just watched this for the first time and all I can say is - this is a 5/5, A+ match. I also watched the tag match from later in the same show, which some people here said was in the Greatest Match of All Time conversation, and I actually preferred this match. I think what I liked about this match more was that, while the tag match was great, it got a bit repetitive and, with a runtime of 40+ minutes, it's a bit of an undertaking to enjoy. It also has falls prey to some of the (justified) criticisms of the style that I've read here and elsewhere - most blatantly the lack of extended long-term selling and the "bad" refereeing (teams disregarding the rules at every turn). This match might be less "epic," but it's also got - in my opinion (who else's would it be?) - just as many great spots with some truly incredible "visuals" and great selling from both women and, because it isn't 40 minutes, its conciseness makes it more digestible.

Reviewed this for my blog - I am reviewing the full Bound for Glory 2011 show available on YouTube - and was somewhat surprised not to see this match here... Anderson eschewed his usual intro to run to the ring and take the fight right to Bully. Lots of energy to start things with Anderson landing a big shot to the groin but then eating a big boot soon after to slow things down. Bully hit some stiff open-hand chops in the corner but Anderson landed a jumping kick and got a 2-count. Anderson went to the floor and grabbed a hold of a sign that was - you guessed it - actually a steel Dead End street sign. Not the most original spot, but this crowd was craving ECW callbacks and it was wise to give those to Anderson. Ray rolled out of the ring and Anderson followed him, dousing him with a cup of beer. An overzealous fan splashed one onto Anderson (and he looked legit surprised and pissed). Bully mounted a comeback and grabbed a table. Anderson and Bully fought their way up the ramp before it could be used, though, with Anderson attempting a suplex on the stage only to take one himself. Bully mocked Anderson's intro and brought the microphone down, which Anderson then used to clobber him in the head. Ray was bleeding a bit as they fought into the backstage area. Ray hit a not-so-pretty piledriver on the concrete but Anderson got a shoulder up. There was a time when that would've been sold like death. Ray grabbed a chair and tried to choke Anderson out with it before leading him back into the arena. Anderson fought back and hit a short-arm clothesline and then a stomp to the groin. Back to the ringside area they went, trading fists. Anderson took apart the guardrail, bringing a piece into the ring. As he tried to get it inside, Bully caught him with a clothesline and grabbed another table, sliding it into the ring as well. Bully set it up but got back body dropped onto the guard rail, bending it. Anderson then went for a senton but landed on the rail when Bully rolled out of the way! Bubba Bomb through the table! 1...2...kickout! Bubba set up Anderson on the rail and went for a senton himself - not a move usually in his repertoire, but whatever - but Anderson evaded it and hit a Mic Check onto the rail for 2. Ray rolled out of the ring as the camera showed that Anderson had a busted lip. Anderson grabbed a trash can and bashed it over Bully's face, causing him to lay down on the table at ringside. Anderson climbed to the top rope, blood dripping down from his nose/lip, and hit a senton but the table didn't break (bummer). Bully rolled to the floor and the two clearly had to work out a new finish with Anderson hitting the Mic Check through the table to get the W. I'm not a huge fan of either guy, but this was a career match for both as they gave each other hell, told a very straight-forward and physical story, and smartly built it around Anderson getting to have multiple "ECW" moments to keep the babyface/heel dynamic consistent. I gave it a 4-out-of-5 on my scale (which goes 0-5 with half-points but not quarter points). A "4" usually means it is in the "should watch/must watch" territory and could potentially be in the Top 10 matches of any given year.

Is there a way we can put this post in some sort of PWO Hall of Fame? Thank you for this glorious summary. It really is incredible how badly they handled Cena's last year. It was so bad that there's actually enough blame to spread around beyond just one or two people. HHH booked this terribly, WWE/TKO stupidly believed that Cena's final run needed additional window dressing in the form of an untrained 125-lb. hip-hop star, and Cena overthought things during the heel phase, wrestling a style that seemed to be a misguided attempt to be a "meta" heel by purposefully leaning into his worst in-ring tendencies to draw heat. He didn't need to do that. Switching back to babyface mode helped, but by that point, the long-term storyline potential of his run had been shot. There was zero emotional gravity to the SummerSlam match with Cody once Cena turned back face the night before so they opted instead to just do everything. Ditto for the "movez"-fest match with Logan Paul. I guess it was cool to see that Cena could still do all that stuff but it also felt hollow. I'll at least give him credit for spotlighting Dom, Liv, Perez, and Raquel and, last night, Gunther.

Haven't you heard? Chris Jericho is coming back. I haven't watched WWE in a few months now, though I've kept up online via reddit and here. I think the real test for whether I'm officially "done" with WWE will be the Rumble. It is very, very easy for me to skip B-level PPVs, to not watch any of the TV, and to even miss a show like tonight's. I've seen enough John Cena matches in my life to never see another one no matter the stakes or opponent. His matches with Cody were dogshit and, though I thought the Paul match was a fun "movez-fest" and I really like GUNTHER, I'm still just not motivated at all to watch. But the Rumble? The Rumble is maybe the one WWE event that I think might be harder for me to skip, especially as it is consistently the only show that I can get my wife and friends - none of whom are into wrestling - to get drunk and watch with me. PLUS, the show being in Riyadh (yuck) also means that I can actually play it in the background with the audio off and turn on some records without missing anything interesting. In the past, when the Rumble has been somewhere like Philly or NY or Chicago, it's sometimes been fun hearing the "hardcore" fans boo this person or cheer that person or shit on the outcome. To go "off script," in a sense. Now that the shows are in Saudi Arabia, though, that sort of audience interaction is all but guaranteed not to happen. It's not a knock against those fans, it's just the nature of putting big shows in front of audiences that aren't made-up of a huge contingent of loud, often critical "smart" fans.

You're right in...theory (yuck), but I think his value, even as a yes-man, is diminished by the fact that there are dozens and dozens of other guys who are just as willing to do whatever the company wants.

I would have to think somebody at the top is wise enough to know that Theory would be an unforced error in booking, but who knows, at this point, I don't think there's anyone even trying to produce quality programming from a critical standpoint. And, even if the most likely scenario is that they essentially "burn" Theory - making him a lifetime midcarder at best - they have a pipeline of better, younger talent anyway. They can throw him out there, let him flop, forget it ever happened, and the only career they've ruined is his. But if they were going to have it be him, why not just do the reveal at War Games? The longer they build the angle, the more of a letdown it will be. Everyone predicting it is Theory (so, there's no "shock") and Theory isn't remotely over enough to make it work as a "Its cool that he's getting this push" thing. Say what one will about Ken Anderson/Kennedy, but there was at least a little groundswell of fans who thought him being Vince's illegitimate son would've made for good TV. I'm not a mega-fan of his, but even I thought it had potential just based on the promos/charisma factor (and, let's be real, that era of WWE wasn't at all about great in-ring product anyway). So...if Theory is made to be the guy, is this just essentially a sacrifice fly so that they can add another "henchman" to The Vision while they put all the real eggs in the Bron basket?

I totally agree with so much of your response and thank you for it. Just to make clear, Warrior won't make my list (either will Goldberg), though I do know this may read like a defense or argument for him. By my own criteria, Goldberg would probably even "score" higher in all but 1-2 categories. I think you got the gist of what I was saying: Warrior could make someone's list, but it would likely come from someone who just loves Warrior - the larger-than-life character, the unhinged promos - and is making their list at least partially based on personal favorites/preferences, which I then extended by saying maybe this hypothetical voter sees Warrior as "the best version" of a certain archetype (raging psychopath with super physique and limited moveset who is booked as totally/nearly unstoppable for a prolonged time). You argue he is not that "best version" - if we're being honest, maybe its actually The Road Warriors? - but I can see the other side, even if its misguided or still really comes down to inventing as many reasons as possible to just say "He's the best version because he's my favorite version!" Like you said, its not a great argument. It's an emotional/sentimental appeal. Full disclosure, though: Warrior made my list in 2016. He was #85. But...in 2016, I was a WWE/WCW-centric voter who built my list based on my childhood memories, growing up as a wrestling fan during the 90s, and then being an on-again/off-again WWE fan during the 00s and 2010s. My list had guys like Buff Bagwell and Ron Simmons on it. I had DDP at #27 on a list of the Greatest Wrestlers Ever. Mine was not the most educated ballot. But, even then, I think Warrior was defensible just based on him being a personal favorite with a ton of charisma, a great look, and a handful of ultra memorable matches and angles that I and many other fans have emotional connection to (the Papa Shango stuff is practically a core memory for me and I still get a little pissed thinking about how he lost the title to Slaughter at Royal Rumble 91'). It might be blasphemous to some but there's still a part of me that thinks, warts-and-all Warrior is a Greater Wrestler than Brad Armstrong or Tom Zenk (my #97 and #98 10 years ago). I don't necessarily think so now, but in 2016, I was pretty confident with that assessment. So there could be a voter in 2026 who puts together their own list - I'm actually thinking of sending info on how to participate to some friends and encouraging one to have his son make a list (he's a die-hard fan and is 13 years old) - and their list could be formed on the same knowledge/ignorance that mine was in 2016. I know we don't want to necessarily open up voting to every person whose ever caught a single episode of Raw, but I'd also hope we would want to include at least some voters who are like me 10 years ago: more knowledgeable than 99% of average folks who can only name 10 wrestlers, but considerably less knowledgeable than many people here at PWO. I also just want to add - I actually think its more fun to argue that someone like Warrior can be #99 than it is to squabble over where Terry Funk or Misawa lands in the top #5, so, please excuse the long-winded answer but this is the kind of discourse I appreciate so much about PWO.

I don't think its that crazy to have Warrior somewhere in those 90-100 spots. I think the argument for him would be (a) there's plenty of sentimental favorites that people have so why not? and (b) as the "perfect version" of a wrestling trope. We've seen lots of guys whose entire act is basically coming in, squashing dudes, cutting borderline incoherent (but I'd argue highly entertaining) promos, and occasionally getting carried to good-to-great matches. Obviously Goldberg comes to mind. But what about Sid? What about Ryback or someone like Braun Strowman? Hell, Ludvig Borga or The Great Khali would probably fall under that category. Then there was The Renegade, the most obvious clone. Now, if you loathe that trope - if you absolutely hate the cartoonish aspect of pro-wrestling and want competitive matches, impassioned-but-realistic promos, etc. - there's no amount of Warrior praise that will convince you he deserves to be on a list of greats. But if you're like me and you actually enjoy some of that absurdity, the Ultimate Warrior is, to many of us, the archetype. His squashes were the most ludicrous (partially because he could execute the fewest moves). His promos were the most unhinged. His look and mannerisms were the most insane. And then, as others have said, you can actually look at the resume and he has 3-4 great matches (carry jobs or not). That's more than anyone else of his ilk.

I loved the way this started with Nakano getting the quick pin on Hasegawa after a devastating powerbomb and then Hokuto evening the score by pinning Yoshinaga a few minutes later. This basically turned the match - which was 2-out-of-3 falls - into a single pinfall match, basically negating the stipulation entirely and just letting these two teams do battle. I also liked how having Hokuto and Nakano get quick, rather decisive pins really made it clear who the bosses of the respective teams were. Lots of cool highlights - Nakano's powerbombs and suplexes are nasty, Hokuto's front-flip splash off the top was awesome, Hasegawa's crossbody to the floor was cool...yeah, this is just great stuff. I could see the argument that the amount of head drops and the reckless-looking splashes would be considered unsafe and even poorly executed by today's standards, but I was plenty entertained from beginning to end. I'm not sure what the post-match "4th fall" was all about because I don't speak Japanese, but whatever it was, it came across to me - an admittedly ignorant viewer who doesn't know the full context of this match - that Hasegawa was almost a danger to herself with how much punishment she was willing to take to prove herself (which makes the post-match moment between her Nakano and Bat even cooler because they do end up showing her respect). As others have written, I'm not sure this falls into "must see"/"classic" territory, but its a match that is very easy to enjoy even if you don't know much about the competitors.

I'm likely to be the high voter on all of the "Horsewomen" as I'm fairly sure all of them will make my list except maybe not Bayley (who is hovering the 80s/90s range but will likely be knocked out as I add more workers that haven't "qualified" yet due to my self-imposed rules for eligibility*). I'm very much a US-centric, mainstream wrestling voter that has only really started expanding my viewership in the past 2 years, so it's not like I have 20 women from Japan that I'm going to rank above her. It'll probably be more like 4-6. To me, the AEW work has been a bit hit-or-miss. I don't think she's able to "carry" lesser workers to great matches (see the semi-recent PPV matches against Britt Baker and Julia Hart and the 4-way from Forbidden Door). Now, I don't think those matches were outright awful (I actually thought the Baker match, while not good, also became a "pile on" with lots of folks just shitting on it to shit on it), but they're blemishes during a run that also featured some very, very good matches against Storm, Vacquer, Hayter, and Statlander. And, if we're going back into her WWE/NXT years, her resume also includes matches against Bayley, Asuka, Charlotte, and Becky that are pretty great too. Of any US woman, I'm not sure anyone has the resume she does and the variety of opponents aside from Asuka, who is also a lock for my list. * Not that anyone cares, but one of my self-imposed rules for eligibility is that I need to have watched and reviewed a minimum of 20 of their matches in order for them to get a spot. I chronicle all this on my *cheap plug* blog, Kwang The Blog. So, that means I'm actively working through more joshi - focusing on Nakano, Aja Kong, Hokuto, Chigusa Nagayo, Manami Toyota for now, but hopefully will also get to watch more Inoue, Ozaki, Masami and Meiko because they're also awesome - as well as a good dozen male workers who I have yet to make eligible (Kawada, Kobashi, Jumbo, Taue, Yoshinari Ogawa, Ospreay, Darby, Takeshita, Sabre Jr, Stan Hansen, Bockwinkel....the list goes on and on.) My GWE Watchlist Playlist on YouTube is 150+ matches and my goal is about 10-12 matches a week on top of watching all the old AEW PPVs I haven't seen and also working my way through the full TNA PPVs that are on YouTube (why? I don't know). Basically, I have alot of wrestling to watch and none of it is current WWE!

Just watched this as part of my GWE Playlist, which I've compiled semi-randomly just by searching YouTube.* This match rules. Like, no notes, its pure awesome. There's so much to love here, everyone is on their game, I love that the match really does ramp up in terms of escalation of offense and false finishes (a criticism I sometimes have as I've tried to watch more joshi wrestling is that sometimes they throw so much at you in the first 5 minutes with crowd-brawling or weapons or head drops or, in Aja's case, Uranakes that its unsustainable and a bit deflating when they settle into the more traditional mat work). I think you could also analyze this match in terms of "basic structure" and it works - the first fall is an extended babyface "shine" with the faces winning a clean victory using teamwork and speed, then in the second round the heels counter that by getting a bit nastier (Moreno's crimson mask is a great visual), and then, in the third round, you just have a great back-and-forth with heightened action (Kong going to the top rope, the missed Uranake leading to a Toyota suplex), the faces landing some awesome tandom moves and getting some nearfalls that make it 1000% believable that they'll be winning, and then a credible, believable end that feels "big enough." Does a masterpiece need to re-write the book? Does it need to usurp tradition? Does it need to "color outside the lines" to be considered an all-time great match? I don't think so. I think the perfect hamburger can be just the perfect bun and the perfect burger with the right condiments in the right proportion. This is like that perfect hamburger. It doesn't reinvent the wheel, but I can't really find fault or critique anyone's performance as anything less than excellent. Toyota is awesome. Moreno is amazing. Jungle Jack play their roles perfectly. 5/5. * I have a self-imposed rule that nobody will make my list unless I have reviewed at least 20 of their matches. As I'm new to watching non-mainstream US wrestling, having only really started watching Japanese wrestling over the past 2 years, I decided to compile a GWE Playlist so that I could see more of the performers I've come to enjoy - Kong, Toyota, Hokuto, Hashimoto, Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi, Nakano, Crush Gals, Yoshinari Ogawa, etc. - and, lucky for me, there's quite a bit up on YouTube with many of them having matches against each other, which has helped me "qualify" them much faster. It does skew things a bit because it feels like I'm watching lots of "dream matches," but oh well, I'm not complaining when it leads to me watching a match like this because it featured Kong and Toyota and I'm still about 8-10 matches shy from either being "eligible" for my list.

Full review will be on my blog at some point this week but some thoughts... - Young Bucks and Omega are almost victims of their own success when the match they had is considered just good. There were some really nifty sequences and I liked Omega's selling of the knee from beginning to end. The Bucks also have great chemistry with Jack Perry and it was on full display here. But, yeah, felt kinda "mid" for them just because they have these sorts of matches so consistently. - I'm probably in the minority but I liked PAC beating Darby and I disliked O'Reilly beating Mox. I'm a bigger Darby fan than PAC fan, but PAC needed the win to maintain even a semblance of relevancy and "realism" to the daredevil Darby character. Darby came into this match having, in kayfabe, suffered third degree burns a week earlier. He then wrestled a grueling match in which he took two nasty falls to the floor and PAC still had to use a baseball bat (with interference from Yuta). "Overcoming the odds" doesn't work as a storytelling device if every single time the hero is faced with odds, he overcomes them. I don't want SuperDarby. I want super tough-but-still human Darby. He was protected plenty. - I like O'Reilly just fine, but, to me, this "Mox on a cold streak" is going a bit too far. With Page and Darby, you at least had guys who the fans were 1000% behind and craving to see beat the Death Riders. With Kyle...it's a little, "Oh, he gets to beat Mox too?" I think they should've let O'Reilly submit him at Blood and Guts or at Full Gear but not necessarily both. And then Mox just attacked him after the bell anyway. I don't think they need to be as hyper-literal with the Death Riders turning on Mox because he keeps losing - he lost the title, he lost to Darby, he lost at Blood and Guts. Who beats him next? Action Andretti? Losing to KOR twice was "hat on a hat" to me. - Loved the main event. I read some criticisms of the Blood and Guts matches (and most modern cage matches) that pointed out how, back in the day, the cage itself was the weapon and the wrestlers didn't need thumbtacks, chairs, ladders, tables, etc. to make the matches brutal and violent. The main event was a classic cage match where the danger of the environment was highlighted (and the only other "foreign object" used was Page's cowboy boot, which also felt very "classic cage match 'rasslin" to me). I'm not sure if Joe intended on cutting himself so deeply but, man, on a show featuring plenty of gore in the Mox/KOR and Briscoe/Fletcher match, Joe's crimson mask was the most uncomfortable to see. I like that the match didn't go too long and I don't think it needed to. I even liked the finish despite it being very "sports entertainment" (it reminded me a good deal of the kind of finishes we saw in the Attitude Era but it works in AEW because, aside from the opener, it was the only really screwy finish on the whole 4 hour show). And then the post-match with Swerve's return was great and the show ending the way it did reminded me of Nitro circa 97. So, the last 30 minutes of the show featured a classic, simple-but-effective NWA-style cage match, a suspenseful, unexpected finish ala peak-Austin Era WWE, and then a huge babyface return moment that ends with the heroes staring down the heel champion and his cronies like one might've seen with Sting, Savage, and Hollywood Hogan to end a WCW show 28 years ago. For a fan like me, it hit.

I'm about halfway through Full Gear 2025 so I was inspired to come here and add Kyle Fletcher to the list of "Not Yets." Now, I'm sure there are some people here who could probably point out some great Aussie Open tags and maybe that means he's already worthy of consideration, but I only know him from AEW and, for a guy who is 26 and is on a roster with some very, very good wrestlers, Fletcher has become one of my "must watch" guys over the past year or so. Still, I don't think he has the resume for a top 100 spot yet. What sets him apart, to me, is that while there's the obvious athleticism, agility, and quickness that draws comparisons to Omega, Ospreay, and Styles, he's also really good at the facial expressions, anguished screams, and full-body selling/bumping that you'd get from peak Flair or Rick Rude. From what I understand, he's seemingly only been a real singles guy for a couple years, but he's already working head-and-shoulders above so many of his peers and has probably already surpassed most of the guys that, 3 or 4 years ago, many of us would've expected to be bigger deals by now (see pretty much the entire 2022 NXT roster).* And I don't think it's as easy as just saying, "Well, look who he's worked with, of course he looks great." Fletcher is not being carried by anyone. His offense looks great. His running boots are nasty. He's always a highlight in the multi-mans and Don Callis Family tags that he's in. Give him another few years and if he keeps putting on matches like he's done recently, I think he's undeniable. *Granted, much of that has to do with booking. Fletcher had high profile matches against Ospreay, Hangman, and Briscoe in 24' and 25' while guys like The Creeds, Carmelo Hayes, Dragunov, and Oba Femi, despite their talents, remain "TV only" (and, in the case of Femi, still in NXT).