C.S.

The only thing the OP says is "Who is better?" There's nothing indicating that the thread is about ring work only. To be fair though, I didn't read the GWE thread this sprang from, so it's possible I'm missing part of the larger context that everyone else apparently came into this thread with. Better drawing power alone doesn't make someone a better wrestler - of course not. I'm not saying that at all. My argument is that better booking can make someone a better draw, which can then give them opportunities to be in better matches where they're able to showcase more. (Note that I'm using the word can, not will.) All three tie together. I don't believe in the concept of looking at one aspect of wrestling in a vacuum (in-ring, in this case), because you can't draw accurate conclusions about a wrestler's overall abilities (or lack thereof) that way. Just my opinion, of course.

But why should drawing power be disqualified? Wrestling doesn't work in the kind of workrate-only vacuum that so many people online wish it to. If someone is less over, that should and does matter. Of course, in Matt's cake, if he hadn't been cut at the knees during his great heel Matt Hardy Version 2 heel run, terrible Edge feud where he was made to look like a chump, etc., he might have gotten more over. That goes back to my earlier point about booking. Jericho has lost luster recently because he's been booked abysmally and Hardy lost luster a decade ago because he was never booked past a certain point. It all matters.

Are you really asking this? Come on now! The answer is EVERYTHING! People on the bottom of the card don't get the same chances to showcase their skills. You know that. There's a tendency around here to make the false argument that the way a wrestler is booked doesn't matter, when the reality of it is, it absolutely matters and has a major effect on every aspect of someone's career and ring-work.

It's a case of diminishing returns with Jericho because they haven't put him in a position to matter. Some of that may be Jericho's fault if he's getting to choose his own feuds - such as with the massively overrated Bray Wyatt. But I know he didn't choose to put himself in the position of facing - and losing - to a fad wrestler like Fandango (who would be much better if he could let loose and be Johnny Curtis again). Is Jericho slightly overrated? Maybe. But I don't know who is actually considering him a top-top guy. He's right underneath that designation. Can you really be a "top level guy" in current-day ROH though? I do agree that Hardy should've had more opportunities on the big stage, but for whatever reason, he didn't. You can argue "what if" and "coulda, shoulda, woulda," but Jericho was put into the position to matter and Matt Hardy wasn't. Based on the facts (you know, what actually happened), I have to go with Jericho.

WON editors? This is Dave "Run-on Sentence" Meltzer we're talking about. If he's not edited, why some random show reviewer get that royal treatment?

WON has always been weak as hell, though, when it comes to website reviews and columns. The main draw are the newsletters and (I'm assuming) audio. With that said, I haven't been a subscriber in years either. But the shitty website wouldn't make or break my decision either way. Edit: Or am I misunderstanding, and this review was in the actual newsletter? If so, I agree with you. BTW, the review sounds incredibly lazy. I didn't even see the episode and I was able to correctly guess that it was Uhaa Nation when a friend of mine told me about the show but didn't recognize who it was. "Big black guy" - what a fucking joke!

The Giants documentary, which is on WWE Network now, made Khali seem like a very big deal in India, showed footage of him over there, etc.

I haven't listened to it, but what else was she supposed to say? "No, I don't understand the business." Obviously, she can't say that either.

I came in to post about this. Didn't know it had an official name. It's a marvel of a move, especially in Davey Boy's hands.

DK would've been a terrible choice for Drago. Wasn't his back also shredded by that point anyway?

Barrett vs. Neville. No surprise there. Heel Kings are usually better, but I'm pulling for Neville anyway.

Holy shit at that blood!

Won't hurt him either though, especially if he wins the whole thing (longshot, but you never know).

Neville wins!!!

Good call. Can't believe I didn't mention this myself. Mankind would be another one. Seemed so cartoonish and ridiculous compared to Cactus Jack, but Mick Foley made it work. Same with Dude Love, to a lesser degree, I guess. Agreed. Darsow was awesome in any role.

Repo Man: It was cheesy as hell and never rose past lower midcard, but Barry Darsow embraced the hell out of it and made it work. Papa Shango: Beware of voodoo, beware of Papa Shango, hahaha! Like Darsow, Charles Wright embraced this character. It also helps that he had a push with the goo/vomiting stuff (which I thought was terrible-awesome), feuds with Warrior and Hogan, etc. Does The Undertaker count? If you think about it, that gimmick in anyone else's hands would've been dead on arrival. Yes, bad pun very much intended.

I didn't mind the match or the ending. I just hope this non-controversial "controversy" the announcers were erroneously hyping up - Rollins using the RKO even though it was banned for Orton - doesn't mean we're getting a Rollins/Orton rematch.

Bo may possibly be the most awkward in ring guy they have. I hardly see how he deserves better. You just need to...BO-LIEVE!

Same old shit with Ryback. His mic/catchphrase routine during matches or segments is so rote, mechanical, and stale. Poor Bo. He deserves better. Then again, you can argue he at least got a segment on the PPV, which is more than someone like Zach Ryder can say.

Great match (surprisingly), but kind of a dumb finish. Still, it's a "moment" they can replay over and over and will look good in still pics on WWE.com, so I understand it.

Maybe they're for the ring crew that has to take down & load the truck after the show is over? Since it'd be later in the night after people already left, so they might not be able to get catering drinks anymore. Maybe, but those drinks would be room temperature...yuck. Surely someone can set up a mini-fridge for the poor ring crew?

Why are there drinks under the ring?

Naomi should've won, but that match was bad.

Well...derp, that fucking sucked.

New Day vs. Cesaro-Kidd was way more fun than it had any right to be. Match of the night? Anyone disappointed that we didn't actually see Ambrose and Harper fighting on the streets of Chi-Town? Attitude era bullshit, maybe, but it would be so different compared to what we usually see these days.