SomethingSavage

Bo should get insulted by the New Day, feel rejected, and recruit his own tag team to oppose the New Day. Bo's at his best when he's hamming it up & being a vocal nuisance on the outside - just like Xavier Woods. Xavier is the Bizarro Bo. It takes me back to early 2014 when a lot of people were predicting WWE to introduce & utilize more trios teams to help get acts over. We were (sort of) seeing that with the Shield, Wyatts, 3MB, and even Matadores. I still think it should be done - even if it means more comedy acts or more regular combinations of a singles guy with an established tag team.

I agree that there's a strong case to be made for Credible, and he might actually be my pick for runner-up to Jarrett. But I don't know. He looks like a surefire winner on the surface, but there's just too much about the Jarrett 2000 push that pulls it ahead of the pack for me. Jarrett had the weakest finisher - perhaps of all time - in his arsenal. No way did the "Stroke" ever merit a spot as a main event level finishing maneuver. It's just terrible. And, even if the execution is RIGHT ON POINT, it still looks atrocious and lame. Credible was at least busting out spinning & jumping Tombstone Piledrivers to put away his challengers. Advantage: Credible in my book. Jarrett's title defenses consisted of Kevin Nash and Diamond Dallas Page - both of whom had cooled WAY off by then - along with David Arquette. Oh and Ric Flair. Not the robe-wearing "Nature Boy" Flair for the Gold championship mode Ric Flair though. I'm talking Ric Flair, dressed in fucking slacks & a Hawaiian shirt, like he's just come from the hotel and figured, "What the hell? I'll go for the Big Gold belt while I'm out of the house." Credible's Three Way Dance elimination matches and the like at least felt like actual main events. Sure. They were dressed up with the dog & pony act that Raven had run through previously, but - even as a Xerox copy of that shtick - it felt right at home with what ECW was doing. Credible's title defenses were given time. They were given the spotlight. There was bloodshed. There was plunder. There was the usual garbage spots & interference you'd expect. Maybe Credible himself was out of place in the setting, but if you had switched him out with another heel that WAS viewed as "acceptable" in those main events? Then nobody would think twice about it. At least a concentrated effort was being made to elevate Credible up to that level along the way, even if it didn't stick. Justin Credible clearly lacked the credibility to warrant his push at that time. I'm not disagreeing with that. But at least he had some good matches along the way. Jarrett in 2000 WCW lacked BOTH the credibility AND the matches. One could even argue - at least in theory - that Jarrett's position should be held to a higher accountability, considering where WCW was just a year and a half prior. The fact that Credible's push happened in ECW is one thing. The fact that Jarrett's push happened in "the #2 promotion" is just insane.

But the key is to have him act like a lady killer. Have him mistake even the SLIGHTEST hint of attention as some sort of intimate affection & run with it. Brie Bella glances in his direction backstage? Slater's got to let her down gently & explain that he's not one to cheat. Call 'im when you're single, ladies. Yeah. Heath walking around like he rules the roost in the divas hen-house could be tremendous. I might even settle for Bo in the role, but I'm almost afraid they'd take it too far off course into "over-the-top corny" territory.

I remember really liking the Archer vs. Masters match from Traditional the last couple of times I watched it. It's nothing earth-shattering or mind-blowing, but it's a smart & straightforward struggle between two strong powerhouses. Now admittedly, Archer's not a guy I actively seek out or try to keep up with, but I think he's definitely turned a corner in terms of being a wiser worker these past few years.

I understand the idea that they wanted it to look like Rollins will have a fighting chance, but yeah. You pretty much nailed it. The idea itself was misguided in this particular situation, and the execution wasn't enough to make up for any of that. Just further reinforces the idea that past writers have stated - with Vince having only one vision and one voice when it comes to his top babyfaces. Makes sense, too. I know it's tiresome to hear people bitch about how all the babyfaces automatically strip away everything that was "cool" about them as heels, but there's an element of truth to it. This segment had stereotypical "Cena beatdown" written all over it. They just inserted Brock instead. And the ONLY thing that's made Brock feel like such a special attraction is the way they've protected, presented, and booked him - UNLIKE anyone else. Anyone that pretends otherwise is pretty much forgetting the fact that Brock had already lost his luster & started to feel like just another part-timer before they booked him to break the streak. He was treading thin ice by that point. To their credit, they decided to start treating him like a legitimate killer after that, and it's done wonders in the way he's viewed. I think people are going overboard in saying the segment "buried" Brock in any form or fashion. That's just ridiculous. But it's not something that I want to see from Brock, and I hope they take action to correct the course & keep away from this sort of stuff with him moving forward.

Agreed. Good show. Surprised there was no guesswork or predictions about what'll happen with the TV Title moving forward. I actually think they're in a position where they've got AT LEAST a handful of guys that could believably & credibly work as the next TV Champ right now.

SOOPAH fun show, guys. Fucking fantastic start with Johnny overlooking Axel and even doing the British accent. But nothing beats the Ole tat talk at the end. The bar has been raised. A new standard has been set. I literally had to replay it 2 or 3 times and just kept cracking up every time.

Jeff Jarrett in Russo's WCW. Ask me a thousand times & that's probably my answer 9 hundred and 99 times. I could understand giving him a singular run as the "Chosen One" or whatever - to help get across the idea of the Powers That Be or even later with Russo & Bischoff. Double J could be a temporary, transitional heel that played up the Honky Tonk role at a higher spot on the card for a few months. But mygoddamngod. They played that card with every hand they'd deal. It was just overkill. Couple that with, as Loss said, the way Jarrett tried to go about getting heat. He was dripping with desperation. The "Slapnuts" catchphrase was as corny as anything I'd ever heard, even at the time. I've seen posts on message boards since that have tried to lay claim that the phrase itself "got over" and found its way into everyday slang. Well, not in my neck of the woods. And I live in the south. Never once heard anyone use "Slapnuts" in casual conversation. Maybe that was the point. It was stupid for the sake of being stupid. Cause, ya know, Jarrett's a stupid heel. But he just never fit or functioned as a long-term main event player. And he was their pet project - soaking up the spotlight - for so long. It was just a huge turn-off in itself, at a time when the WCW product REALLY needed to stray away from anything like that. They couldn't afford to be making major mistakes, and there they were. Pushing Jeff fucking Jarrett like this great world beater with his secret weapon of mass destruction, Mjolnir the great guitar or whateverthefuck. And this is coming from someone that REALLY enjoyed the hell out of Jarrett as a fiery southern babyface. His stuff in the USWA was incredibly entertaining in its time. Hell, he even worked a crazy fun match as an underdog borderline babyface against the Giant in his first run with WCW - in the Fall of '96 or '97, I believe. Plus, hey. He actually went on to become a halfway tolerable heel in TNA. I actually didn't mind the Planet Jarrett stuff nearly as much, but it seemed to be booked better & had a way of leaving you with a feeling that they had something planned down the road. It felt like they were using Jarrett as the placeholder & the temporary band-aid until the company could come up with their rightful "successor" in AJ Styles or Monty Brown or someone. So there was this sense of hope that you just didn't get with the WCW time period. Jarrett kind of found a way to raise his game with all the fun brawls & added "dog and pony" stuff, too. He made up for what he lacked with Gail Kim, AMW, etc. for awhile in TNA. But Christ on crutches. That main event run in WCW's darkest days was absolute trash. I've given it a rewatch in recent years, and it still stands up as the stuff nightmares are made of. Honestly. Any of us that dare to relive it deserve an honorary medal. I'd rather crawl & crab-walk through a dozen dirty dumpster fires than relive it for a third time. Just terrible.

It's unfair to lay all the blame at Heyman's doorstep though. Hotshot booking is what damaged the business for the long-term. Hotshot booking wasn't exclusive to ECW - it was borrowed or outright swiped & applied to both WCW and the Attitude Era WWF. Years and years of that hotshot booking left the business with this longstanding hangover. Furthermore, Heyman didn't "create" or "breed" a new kind of fan. Those fans were going to come from somewhere, and they were going to start attending wrestling events - regardless. The changes in our culture, our media, our access to information, our obsessions with instant communication & gratification... all that stuff was coming. Heyman didn't create the demand. He just catered to it by providing the supply.

With the recent talk of Elgin making the G1 lineup and being protected at Best In The World, I just thought I'd ask - what exactly did happen with Elgin and his ROH Title run? I've heard rumors & stuff in bits and pieces, but I never really understood the situation I guess. So what did Elgin do to screw himself over? And how'd he wind up back in the good graces of ROH, to the point where they're vouching for him to get a spot with New Japan?

Agreed. That whole summer was a fun time to be a fan for obvious reasons, but yeah. Rey was having these exceptional little matches on the Raw side of things, following that long stint of strong stuff on Smackdown. Hell, Rey even got a shockingly enjoyable match out of the Miz in that vacant WWE Title situation. Aside from the series with Morrison - which weren't great by any means - I can't recall another time where I bought Miz's offense. He tries to work too big & too tough against guys like Cesaro, Ryback, Cena, etc. when it just doesn't fit for me. But against Rey, he was busting out neckbreakers, backbreakers, and powerbombs in spots where they looked legitimately believable. You'd buy that Miz would eat that shit up anytime he's in a situation to bully a smaller guy like Rey. And it worked. And I'm with ya, Steven, on the Rumble match with Taker. I understand if people were expecting something... else?... from the encounter, I guess. But I watch that one about once a year (at least), and I never DON'T enjoy the hell out of it. Just a super fun chemistry & dynamic in play there, and it's worked into every little thing they do from bell to bell.

Rey was still putting in some good performances in 2010, but I thought the quality of his matches was down on 2009. The Michaels match was okay, but Shawn's selling kind of sucked. I also watched the Undertaker match from the Royal Rumble but it fairly mundane. I think that was a match-up issue more than anything else. Still, Rey vs. WWE legends is another thing I can cross off the list of things I'm interested in. Rey vs. Kidd was the kind of Rey match I like to watch, but Kidd's execution was sloppy and there were too many people at ringside. The Del Rio stuff was okay, but he's a mechanical worker without much soul. I liked the Punk feud, but it wasn't a patch on the stuff with Jericho the previous year. Punk wore his influences on his sleeve, but he did it with conviction and I could appreciate that. I didn't much care for his over acting on the hair match payoff, but that's a standard American interpretation of a hair loss I guess. Their Wrestlemania match was kind of drab, but the rest were solid enough, though the delay during the Over the Limit bout hurt it a bit. Swagger was an awkward match-up for Rey because of the size difference (had no idea Swagger was so long limbed), but their feud was pretty good. Unfortunately, the final image I had of it was a terrible falls count anywhere bout (hate that gimmick) with Kane showing up to chokeslam Rey into the river. Was it me or did he appear at the end of each of their fights? I recently rewatched a lot of Rey from this time period, particularly 2010-11, and I'd echo a lot of the same statements. I don't think any of it was on par with his 2009, which was tremendous - featuring standout matches with everyone from Morrison & Ziggler to Jericho, Finlay, and even Mike Knox. Great stuff on the B (or C) level shows, and Rey was pumping out terrific TV matches on a weekly basis. I don't Rey's work really took a noticeable nosedive until sometime around 2012. There was a dip in quality before that to be sure, but I don't think it's anything outrageous. That being said, I didn't care AT ALL for the HBK match. Relied way too much on what was going on with Taker, and the whole affair just felt like an afterthought before the opening bell even rang. The Tyson Kidd match is something I REALLY dug at the time, and I honestly think it still holds up well enough. I can see your point about their being too much going on at ringside, but I liked it. Never distracted my attention away from the two main components. Could've done with Smith Jr. if I had to, but I thought Natalya played her part to the hilt. Would've liked to have seen more of this aggressive side of her at ringside with the Cesaro/Kidd team, in fact. Swagger and Rey was an odd fit from the beginning, and I never really got into any of their stuff around that time. I thought the brief angle to bring in Buck as Swagger's dad was a HUGE gimmick upgrade for him at the time, and it's a shame that it all fell apart before they really did enough with it. Golden as the "armchair coach dad in the stands" could have been... well, golden. But yeah. Their Falls Count Anywhere Match (which, I guess, was the blowoff?) sucked super hard. Too much cutesy stuff on the outside, with all the spots feeling overly choreographed and completely sanitized. I did pop for Swagger trying to cross the street, nearly getting run over, and shouting at a driver - "Hey! I'M WALKIN' HERE!" So there's that.

Let's not lose sight of NXT still being a developmental territory at the end of the day. Blake and Murphy aren't exactly lighting up anybody's world right now, but I don't think people should be chomping at the bit to crucify them for it either. These guys are there to learn. This whole process is supposed to be set in place SPECIFICALLY for that purpose, more so than any other. Yes. It's cool that we get to see so many top flight super indie workers come through. Yes. It's great that they're signing up the best of the best these days, and not letting petty prejudices cloud any of that. At the same time, there's got to be a little wiggle room given to the guys that haven't been selected through that path. You could say that they should be hidden away off camera & only working house shows until they're deemed "ready", but I don't necessarily agree with that approach. I see posts about the lower-level guys working each other on all these "B" shows or whatever, but what good does that do? Unless they're working with experienced pros & seasoned vets, they're only going to improve so much anyhow. And even then, working those live events & working for television is another beast entirely anyway. So Blake and Murphy aren't looking like the next coming of the Midnight Express. Okay. That's fine. But sometimes you've got to step back, let them do their thing, and see if they adapt or grow - or fail miserably. Not everyone's going to be a natural. Not everyone's going to have a decade-plus of globe-trotting indie experience behind them either. This might be their ceiling. Then again, it might not be. It's a game of wait & see. That's what developmental is for though.

Great show, guys. Didn't agree with all the scenarios presented, but that's half the fun in listening. Love the roundtable format for that reason, too - everyone gets to pitch different viewpoints & situations. The appeal of an eventual Eddie/Bret program towards the end sounds glorious, especially if they would have been allowed to draw parallels with the family paths & legacies - almost an updated spin on the (really BRIEF) Hennig/Bret confrontation from KOTR '93. Anyway, this one was fun. You guys are constantly coming up with intriguing topics to talk about, and this series in general has just been a truckload of fun to follow.

Yup. And, while I'm not trying to discount the awesomeness of Xavier or Big E at the moment, a big part of the reason why they're being so well received at the moment is because it was allowed to play out ORGANICALLY and naturally. Same as Bo's NXT turn. Bo could have benefited from the same treatment, but they just rushed him onto the main roster as if everyone was supposed to know the whole story all along. Didn't click. Same deal with Emma and her awkwardness. Never translated, because it was just kind of shoehorned into the show.

Yeah. It's funny that you bring up the binge-watching appeal of it. Ever since the show started, I've gotten into the habit of letting about three or four episodes build up until I go through 'em. The content's easy to absorb, and the time spent viewing just flies by. I can blaze through a month's worth of Lucha Underground - nearly 4 hours - but I couldn't tell you the last time I legitimately sat through an entire 3-hour Raw. Probably the night after WM30, if I had to really think about it.

That sounds tremendous. I might seek that out. Makes you wish Bo would be given some lackeys or backup and form a faction similar to the New Day or at least 3MB. Just fun punching bags for the babyfaces, with Bo carrying the mic workload on his end. Give him a haircut, surround him with three other lower-end guys, call them the Faux Horsemen & let 'em take out the Meta Powers. Done deal. If they get over, it opens the door to do more with 'em. If they flop, then no harm done.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but if Gulak is signed? In that scenario, I think it's much more realistic to assume that he'll come around to working a WWE style before the entire WWE style will be rearranged to accommodate more mat work. I'm sure he'll get to do some token spots, but I don't see it breaking down boundaries or being much more than what we got from, say for instance, Regal. Didn't Chuck Taylor go to the recent tryouts? He's a tall guy, and while he doesn't necessarily have a bodybuilder frame or anything... the guy's loaded with charisma & is a super fun babyface. He's crowd-friendly and seems like someone that could be given an outside shot from them. I wouldn't expect him to make major waves, but I could see him nestle into a comedic undercard babyface or something. Of course, I assumed the same fate for Colt Cabana at one time. And that went way south in a hurry.

What's interesting about Steen is that he's essentially born & bred by the New Generation (and later Attitude Era) WWF. He's a huge fan boy, with major blind spots in terms of his knowledge of the business. This has been openly admitted & confirmed on his part, so it's not like it's some wild assumption or guesswork on my part. But I say all that, because I think it offers an interesting window through which we can look at how her performs. He's always taken crowd participation & interaction to another level in his body of work, and I don't know if that comes from his early WWF exposure or just personal preference that he picked up AFTER the fact as he started working actual matches. Sorry to derail the thread away from Cena for the moment, but I really couldn't help but agree with much of what Loss was saying about WHY Owens is clicking & resonating on another level right now. It's more about the little things coming together than one big component on its own, but yeah. It's something you can see left & right on the smaller scale, but it's really refreshing on the big stage - where it borders on being almost a taboo or foreign concept because it's been absent (or at least sparse) for so long. I guess some could point to Jericho's 08 and 09 run for a similar kind of crowd interaction & showmanship, and that's fair. But there IS very good reason why that run was so highly regarded at its time.

I still don't see Moose at that level. Maybe by Final Battle, but even then it might feel like it's too soon. Of course I could be in the minority by a wide margin in thinking that. It is what it is though. Either way, I do agree that Moose should be protected moving forward. I *get* the political positioning of Elgin & all that at the moment, but yeah. If at all possible, I'd have Moose murder-death-kill him after the G1 is all said & done. Like, repeatedly mow him down & maul him in a few matches. Put Moose over in clean almost over-the-top fashion. I like Lethal with the right opponent, but I'm on the fence about having him as their World Champ for any long duration. Briscoe, to me, just makes for better matches with a much wider range of opponents until they're ready to really pull the trigger on their next actual guy - likely Moose, by all accounts.

I'm trying to remember what the talk was surrounding him getting signed back in the day, but it's honestly been so long ago now that I can't recall. Wasn't it the showings he had against Finlay that ultimately led to him getting a look? Or was it just a typical tryout? Either way, it feels like a MAJOR misfire on their part. Callihan's done next to nothing during his time there, and - I could be wrong - but I think the injury is only just a recent happening. Like really, really recent. So that's no excuse. I'm happy for the guy's bank account & his quality of life (if either's been greatly improved) since he got signed and all that, but man. The selfish fan in me wants to say I'd much rather have seen him tearing it up on the indies for the past two years instead of THIS shitty alternative of (basically) nonexistence. It's a shame.

Random sidebar - but Kris has said he's taking requests here at PWO and on Twitter for future show subjects, so I thought I'd pitch the idea of a Puerto Rico timeline, similar to the in-depth discussion we've gotten for Crockett. It's cool if it's crammed into one show or whatever if need be. I just feel like there's PLENTY of potential "meat" on the matter though. The Colon/Hansen series, Chicky Starr & the Sports Shop, the Abby/Colon love-hate link that features more turns than a combined Sting & Lex Luger comp, and on & on. There's a wide range of guys that got (arguably) some of the best stints of their career there. Cases could be made for the Sheeps (as Dylan has mentioned), Savio/TNT, Steve Strong, Miguel Jr., etc. An entirely extra area of discussion could be dedicated to the stars that came in for short stays - whether it be a Funk, Savage, Hansen, Martel, Konnan, Sheiky Baby, Atlas, or whoever. A spotlight on the insane, chaotic style... the die-hard fan base... and all the specialty stipulation matches, gimmicks, etc. Could even maybe talk up some of the bookers that were there - and their respective strategies to draw fans, although that one might be a little trickier to track than some of the other stuff. I know Dutch has documented some of his time there in shoot interviews though.

Will there be a reaction show for this one, guys? I'm curious to see what they do with Roddy moving forward. Strong's been phenomenal in PWG, and he feels like a top flight level heel. He's been refreshed in that role, and I honestly LOVED the way they had him constantly tormenting & poaching Kyle O'Reilly (the then champ) for months & months on end before finally robbing him of the crown. Great storytelling, perfectly paced stuff. So yeah. Part of me would like to see that approach for him here in ROH. But I don't know. He's surprisingly good as this experienced, battle-tested babyface as well. It's not on par with his recent heel work for me, but I'm not opposed to it altogether. I'd much rather have him grow naturally & organically into the top heel, although I wasn't a big fan of his last ROH Title run in that capacity. Then again, I wasn't blown away by the majority of his babyface run that followed it either. Also, I know most reviews I've seen have shit all over the Kingdom's stint in New Japan. But I'm excited to see them working back in ROH. Styles being involved certainly helps, but Cole and Bennett are great modernized heels - ESPECIALLY in a work-rate ROH landscape. I think their time spent under the Matt Hardy learning tree has been very valuable in hindsight.

I love the show, and I get the impression that there are actually a lot of fans here on the board. For some reason, it just doesn't get talked up or discussed as much though. I think Pete (shoe) has mentioned that he'll be talking about it some on his new upcoming podcast project. Others have mentioned following it & enjoying it in the past, but yeah. I don't know why there's not much talk about it here. There's been some great stuff, for sure. I don't know about listing off 10 definitive matches for ya though. The show's only about 30-something episodes deep, but you could practically pick at least one match per show that's worth scoping out. I'd just recommend checking out the "Full Fight" videos that El Rey posts on their YouTube channel. They usually go with the best or most acclaimed matches of each week anyhow. And, if I tried narrowing it down to a list of only 10, I'd ultimately feel like I had to leave SOMETHING off the list that should've made it. For sure, you should check out the Casket Match and Death Match between Mesias/Fenix. Probably also the Boyle Heights Street Fight between Puma & Big Ryck. Maybe the 3-way Ladder Match with those 2 and Mundo also, although I don't think I've watched it again since late last year, and so maybe it doesn't hold up to some of the trios tournament stuff & whatnot that's happened since.

Great, great show. Just a truckload of fun to have the gang back together & talking shop in the '81 time frame. Loved the Dusty talk early on. Pete nailed it, calling him the John Wayne of wrestling & saying his fingerprints were all over the modern business. Parv's detailed descriptions of Finkel and the Baron had me cracking up. The "My Name Is" intro theme is tremendous, too. Thumbs up, guys. I'm glad we've got so much variety with the podcast feed these days, but it's cool to see you all keeping this project going. I'd hate to see it get derailed before we get to Snuka showing up.