SomethingSavage

Heard the latest X-Pac episode. Great stuff. I could listen to Waltman as a guest on just about anybody's show. Plenty of insight into the Razor TV matches, the idea of sprinkling chain wrestling into matches in short spurts for fear of losing a modern crowd, gauging the audience, etc. So much interesting talk on a variety of topics. Cool to hear his answer about which territory he'd most want to work in, given that he had a time machine & could choose any era. The Mid-South choice sounds specifically interesting to me. I don't know about Watts, but I can't help but wonder about what kind of magic Dundee would have tried to work with a young babyface Waltman. I'm thinking something in the same vein as the Rock N Rolls or Fantastics - where he could get great sympathy, bump big, and eventually earn his stripes via some bloodshed and brawls, but ya just never know. Neat to think about anyhow. And I get a kick out of Austin still referring to the WWF as the "territory."

Well, no kidding. I never pitched a specific angle or premise to have him start being an ass-kicker again. But it's hardly THAT difficult to come up with something. You don't need to sit back and hope the guy gets injured in order to "reheat" him that way. Just have a heel do something dastardly to him or his friends, have it light a fire underneath his ass, and you're off to the races. When did it become about "fooling" the fans? A good, cohesive, and consistent narrative doesn't need a bunch of misleading tricks to get going. A lot of this shit sounds like the worst possible aspect of die-hard fandom.

So you're saying Ryback wasn't over before they booked him against Punk at HIAC? And what? The idea that booking him vs. Punk at HIAC was a huge mistake that derailed his momentum is urban legend or something? Can't have it both ways. If he wasn't over until AFTER the Punk match, then why would so many people have a problem with them running it in the first place? And "Goldberg" chants aside, I don't think that really justifies NOT using a particular tactic to push or promote a guy. If that was the case, then nobody should ever rack up consecutive wins or go on a winning streak ever again. Ever. Sounds a little silly to me. It's their job to make it creative and interesting enough to let it feel distinct and take on a life of its own. I'm not saying I have the utmost faith in them to do that, but throwing your hands up in the air & saying we shouldn't even bother to try because - hey, we MIGHT hear some "Goldberg" chants - is just a tad ridiculous.

I've heard he does all his own stunts.

So what? Worked well enough for Ryback. The guy got over really strong doing a jobber-squashing routine. And it's not about a winning or undefeated streak. It's about putting him out there, putting him over, and letting him Superman Punch the piss out of people. Reigns originally got over by doing very little and being presented as the powerhouse of the Shield. No reason they can't resurrect a similar aura around him by doing the same in singles sprints and tag matches alongside Ambrose. I wouldn't be totally opposed to a heel turn, but the idea of creating a bunch of bullshit news stories and "rumorz" to get the fans to give him a chance is just far too stupid for me. I'm absolutely unable to accept the notion that a strong, consistent narrative can't still work to get a guy over in this day & age. If people are tuning in, then by definition that's your audience. They're already there. They're already invested to some extent. That means they already WANT to buy what you're selling. Offer them a good product, and they'll accept it. It's not fucking calculus to get from point A to point B, nor should it be as complicated as them feeling forced to "trick" or manipulate their fans into accepting the guy.

I've got those eps downloaded & need to give 'em a listen soon. Are both parts worth checking out, Steven? Oh god. I know. It's quickly becoming the new Code Breaker / Lung Blower, which must have surpassed the DDT for the most overused, commonplace transition spot - being done by everyone and their third cousin - at least a handful of years ago. And I'll echo those sentiments about Melissa Santos. Just a totally refreshing breath of fresh air. The fact that she's hotter than a fresh fucked fox wearing wool socks notwithstanding, she's a damn good ring announcer that actually puts concentrated effort into distinguishing certain guys & setting the stage for their unique entrances and personalities perfectly. Great point.

I love a lot of Steen's PWG stuff. He's charismatic and witty as a babyface. Plus you can tell he genuinely enjoys playing to the crowd. But he's absolutely at his best as a heel. The guy's got GREAT instincts as a sinister, borderline sociopath type of prick. But there's a LOT of times where he'll ditch those instincts and go WAY overboard with the comedy shtick and fan interaction crap. It's okay in smaller doses, but he really let the Reseda atmosphere dictate his style more often than I'd like. That being said, I think he's brilliant at improvising and working through things on the fly - which is truly a testament to just about ANY worker that can manage it these days. His ROH stuff fell off a cliff for me sometime after the original Generico feud & story arc. That whole thing was tremendous for both guys, and it was the first time I really got a sense of us seeing the murderous, villainous side of Steen unleashed. But once Steen returned from the Cornette suspension thing & the whole SCUM stuff kicked into gear, it all quickly went to shit in a hurry for me. His in-ring work in the WWE has been spotty - more good than great - but never anything less than good, for sure. And I think his character work has been outstanding for the most part.

I had fun watching everything in that last four or five show stretch, but yeah. The Ultima Lucha finale is fucking phenomenal. And that Muertes/Puma bout is incrrrrredible fun. That camera shot - with the picture visibly shaking as the Flatliner from the top lands - was tremendous. One of the better "impacts" you'll see on a wrestling move, and it's something I'd like to see lifted and used more.

If they're keeping him babyface, then yeah. My thought process would be a lot closer to Loss' than anything else. Make him an ass-kicker. Have heels appear intimidated to get booked against him. Have jobbers bail out of the match, walk out, or voluntarily take count-out losses. Have punching bags like Slater, Bo, etc. show up for rematches still wearing the wounds of war - fresh bandages, braces, etc. - when they face Reigns for the second or third time. Simply SELL the notion that this guy is a hard-hitting, big-time impact player. Insist that the announcers actually REMIND people of the brutality from his bout with Brock. Canonize some of that shit.

Appreciate the recap, Pete. I wanted to wait & see what the consensus was before I considered scoping out the show. Hell, I'm just now getting through Takeover and SummerSlam in full. I'm particularly interested in seeing how Cole is transitioning, and I'm probably a bigger fan of Bad Influence / late stage "I finally found my personality and sense of showmanship" Christopher Daniels than most. So I'm curious to see how that one panned out. Not that I was expecting them to or anything, but it's a shame they didn't run with Dalton Castle. The stakes aren't so high in the gauntlet that they couldn't afford to switch things up there, but hopefully they take note & position him stronger moving forward. Did his elimination noticeably deflate the crowd, or was it just a case of the match feeling bland without him left alive in the fight? And agreed on all points about Roddy. I'm a HUGE fan of Strong, for sure. But I gave up on him growing into a better talker a long, long time ago. It just isn't happening. But that's fine. Like it or not, that's not everyone's forte. There's nothing wrong with accepting the stronger (and weaker) attributes of certain individuals and just rolling with it. Doesn't mean Strong can't be a quality heel. He's been proving that in PWG for a year-plus now. Roddy's got the mannerisms, the gestures, and the in-ring heel shtick in spades. He doesn't have to talk. And he's a perfectly fine fiery babyface just the same without speaking. I fear for the future of a Kyle O'Reilly singles push in the same way, because the guy's actually got a great, fun personality within his matches that can play to the crowd and keep them engaged. But he isn't meant to make any bold proclamations backstage or anything. And truthfully, ROH knows what they've got with these guys. I don't understand why they'd insist on exposing them in situations like that.

One's Jackie Chan? One's Chris Tucker?

Not that I'm calling for it or anything, but if they were to go a new direction & have Reigns go heel? I'd honestly like to see them blatantly copy & paste the new Baron Corbin kind of attitude onto him. Have him rip apart the indie darlings that have come in, made waves, and gotten support based on their globe-traveling and work ethic. And he could just boast about how they had to wreck their bodies to get there... while he just had to pick up the phone & make a single call to get there. I don't know how they'd navigate around heels like Rollins and Owens right away, but it'd set him up for instant rivalries with Ambrose, Cesaro, Neville, etc. right away. And, since I'm fantasy booking here, I'd use it as a ready-made way to plug Sami Zayn back into the thick of things on the main roster when he's cleared & ready to return. So there.

Dylan calling Sheamus/Orton the most "routinely rejected" match lately had me nodding my head in agreement. And the line about smarky crowds at these big shows being predisposed to shit on anybody that didn't "cut a cartwheel in PWG" had me cracking up. I do disagree with the idea that Stewart needs to be on sight for many live events to get this angle over though. If any situation called for more "on location, sent-in" interviews, then it'd be something like this one. It'd play up the sense that Stewart is cowardly & give the announcers reason to speculate that he's afraid of facing up to Cena for his actions. I know everyone's calling for a Kaufman-like deal out of this one, and sure. That'd be tremendous. But I think that's setting the bar unrealistically high. I'd settle for some entertaining heel shtick & trash talk out of Stewart, along with a decent payoff - hopefully a big enough, really memorable bump - or just even a one on one squash match with Cena. But only if it's something closer to Lawler/Kaufman than Cena/Laurinitis. I think it's all going to come down to their patience with the angle, whether Cena's reaction allows the fallout to feel like it actually means something, and just how much participation they can get out of Stewart for the payoff. I was a little disappointed with the Wyatts/Shield tag, but I never really expected to be blown away by it. I think it was destined to be a "middle of the road" match on this show, because so much other stuff was getting the spotlight & attention anyhow. Plus I was pleasantly surprised that there was no turn, because I honestly don't feel like the timing is right for anyone to make a turn. They did well enough, and Reigns going over Bray was an okay choice. Both guys now have wins over one another since Battleground, and it sets up a rubber match. I know the feud itself isn't exactly lighting the world on fire, but I believe we could get some great stuff out a series of stipulation matches between Bray and Reigns. I've never been underwhelmed by a Bray hoss fight yet, and Reigns has been killing it in gimmick matches all year - from the Extreme Rules match with Big Show to meaningless RAW and SmackDown bouts with Kane. I wasn't enraged by the finish of the main event or anything, but it does feel a little frustration. There's just this sense of guys getting NO traction on the under-card and mid-card already, which Dylan touches on A LOT these days. And I agree. Everybody's just spinning their wheels and running on treadmills - trading wins and losses meaninglessly, with VERY rare exceptions. So to see something like this done in the main event, with one of the few guys left that feels above that stuff - they go and almost undo the special appeal of breaking the streak in the first place. I forget who said it, but there was a comment that summed it up nicely - everybody lost here. It's just that, at the end of the day, the Undertaker lost a little less. And that's just a surefire flat fucking finish in my book. Some great discussion and some interesting thoughts. Good stuff.

Agreed. There's a difference between Bullet Club Bucks and Mount Rushmore Bucks. I think the whole Bullet Club tie-in just brings out their most grating, irritating qualities and puts them on full display. In PWG, for whatever reason, they seem to be less inclined to play up to the babyface reactions & more inclined to keep the heel shtick intact - at least most of the time. The Bucks' instincts aren't always the best, but they certainly CAN be tremendous heels AND simultaneously still be totally entertaining - without hitting that tipping point. It just seems like they'd rather go full throttle with the Bullet Club routine, and it rarely makes for stellar performances. In fact, I feel like it detracts a lot from the dynamic. Unfortunately, that means their matches hinge entirely on how smooth or crisp their spots are - and it's a fucking roll of the dice every night with that stuff.

I find him to be much more tolerable in PWG than ROH (or anywhere else really), but I think that's more a credit to the hot crowd and atmosphere in Reseda than anything Elgin does directly, to be honest. To be fair, I haven't seen any of his G1 stuff just yet. It'd be nice to see him come back stateside with a broader understanding of what to do & when to do it with regards to his psychology, but I don't have any indication of whether he's really "picking up" things in Japan - or just being guided along to better performances.

Great bleeder. Super fun brawler, especially in the right setting with the right story to tell. Loved the feud with Roode up until the Lockdown cage match finish. Storm has had entertaining car-crash style garbage matches with Gunner as recently as last spring & summer. He's shown a knack for playing up big & loud for the audience when he has to, which is something that you don't get very often with TNA. The rematches with Angle, after his short-lived title deal, aren't something to sleep on either. I think they managed to spin off the first fluke finish and come back to tell some decent stories about cementing Storm as a main event player. I don't know that he's got the body of work to justify him making a list like this one - in fact, I think it's a real stretch when you start narrowing the edges and eliminating names, but I absolutely find Storm to be one of the more underrated modern performers overall.

Unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of free time for podcasts lately... so my playlist is stacking up with these shows. Loved the WM week we got from ya, Will... and I'm definitely looking forward to devouring these soon. Stoked with the amount of quality content you guys have been producing. I feel almost greedy to ask, but will we be getting reaction shows to this big weekend's events? With my schedule being what it is until Labor Day, I'm pretty much slammed and won't be able to catch any of 'em in real time. Gonna have to pick & choose what I go back and watch first, and so I generally use your reaction shows to create my priority watch list from first to last.

Page had a connection with the crowd. The guy got over, knew how to work an audience, and ran with it. Whether he was the best in-ring talent or not, he was far from the worst - and when you combine that with "big time" presence and showmanship, sometimes things just click. For Page, I think it was a lot of those things. Plus, there's something to be said about his versatility. He could work a safer, smarter, more economical style with Hogan. Ditto for Sting. But then he could have a wild brawl with Savage. He could guide a greener-than-goose-shit Goldberg with his prepackaged, choreographed approach. But he could also go out there have a fun, wild garbage dog & pony parade with Raven and his Flock. He was capable of taking a barrage of suplexes and chops from Benoit. Basically, Page could deliver at any level of the card on any given night. Why exactly WOULDN'T that make him a valuable player on your roster again? And yes. He was over like freaking Rover. You could debate why all day long. Doesn't really matter. Because that's the kind of thing that promoters should always (at least in theory) attempt to capitalize on. Oh. And I always got a kick out of his offensive arsenal, too. I know some will say Page was never any great shakes at connecting the dots & putting everything together in the ring to tell significant or substantial stories, but I always thought he did well enough in that regard. But when it came to short TV matches? He kept 'em entertaining. Even now, I can go back and watch him bust out "innovative offense" - which was a HUGE thing when it came to "smart" fandom around this time - and I simply enjoy the hell out of it. I can understand how knowing more about his friendships with Bischoff, Nash, Hall, etc. might make people second guess his rise through the ranks, but I don't know. It never bothered me. The guy LEGITIMATELY improved by leaps and bounds, and if you were around to follow any of that - I can't see how the criticism is enough to hold anything against me. Page busted his ass, got over like gangbusters, and never really seemed to stop working hard until the bitter end. For God's sake, he was still coming out swinging - trying to have good matches with the likes of the Natural Born Thrillers in dying WCW... and even later with Christian and Lance Storm in WWE.

With my schedule what it is right now, I pretty much have to bust up podcasts into separate hour-long stretches. So I've only just heard the first hour so far, but yeah. Can't get enough of this stuff. Enjoying the hell out of the concept & the series. Every week is like taking a time warp back into a specific piece of wrestling's past, and you guys get to focus on the sort of shit that would usually fall through the cracks or just not get talked up at all under another topic. Plus we're getting fresh takes & new voices with the revolving door of guests, which is always a cool bonus. The Lawler and WWF talk has me wanting to watch the McMemphis comp again. SO many awesome promos and interviews in that thing. I couldn't agree more about the Mr. Perfect babyface turn. It still holds up as being a fantastic little self-contained angle. EVERY single character and personality involved with that story, from Vince to Heenan... over to Flair, Savage, and Hennig himself... all played their parts perfectly there. And, call me crazy, but I just don't see Sting being a good fit for the WWF around this time. I *guess* maybe a case could be made where - in some alternate universe - he receives Bret's push and position for the next few years as a lead babyface. Or maybe he winds up with the Lex Express push in '93 opposite of Bret, and then that actually succeeds where Luger's run failed. In that case, we get both Bret AND Sting as top babyfaces for a few years, I suppose. But meh. I think Sting was better off in WCW. That whole New Generation WWF era wasn't exactly getting the most out of everybody, and so I have a hard time buying into the idea that they would've hit this sudden home run with Sting there. Even if he was a new face, he was still a guy with neon tights and face-paint - and that wasn't unique or different enough to push anything forward or feel like progress in a time they were trying really hard to find that. And so Sting would've likely just felt like another holdover from the 80's. The WWF already had that in spades. Plus we would've missed out on the Sting vs. Vader series, some of the Dangerous Alliance battles, the Regal matches, etc. And later we got that awesome little dynamic of the heel Lex / babyface Sting tag team for awhile there. I'll take the WCW run we actually got over some fantasy matches with the Clique crew - all of which could have been okay in theory, depending on how they good they decided they wanted to let Sting look on any given night, in any given town. To be honest, I just don't know if I agree that a run - beginning in '92 or even '95 when the contract is up - for Sting in the WWF would've made him into anything more significant than what he wound up with in reality. The Crow Sting era was huge. He's getting residual pops, cheers, and fans from it to this day. Sting in the New Generation era wouldn't have been as big a deal as '97 Sting in WCW. I don't think it matters if he would've been their World Champion for a year or not. The Crow gimmick is just bigger. And if he misses out on that Nitro era for the sake of getting an Attitude Era run in the 'F, do they really use him as well or better? I think it's doubtful. I don't think the Crow gimmick lands on him there, and so what does an Attitude Era Sting really look like in the WWF? Does he drop the colors and the paint for leather jackets and street clothes? Does he get religious? Wasn't that Dustin Rhodes? I mean, I have a hard time seeing any 90's WWF run being as successful or memorable as the Sting we actually got in WCW in the long run.

Agreed. I've got Smoky Mountain from start to finish, and this - more than anything else - has me itching to dive back into it all. Those early days of Cornette teasing the debut of his new tag team, the DWB pushing around Mr. Wright, etc. await. Finally made my way through the rest of the show. Really got a kick out of Brian's stories from Fan Week. Kris, have you heard Jerry Jarrett's shoot interview with RF? It's got at least some in-depth discussion about the way the Memphis territory was divided up, shared with Lawler, pushed & pulled politically, etc. over its long history. He talks about his stuff through the Vince trial and all that a bit, too. I mean, yeah. It's not directed or guided very well - like most RF shoots - but it's effective enough in some aspects. The thing with Jerry is that it just seems that he's not all that interested in opening up and talking about the sort of stuff fans really want to hear about. He just doesn't come across as that guy. He can tell you about some stuff, some angles, some characters, some ideas... but he can just as quickly get sidetracked into a story about his wife, his kids, or his construction business very quickly. And so you never really get the sense that he places any more priority on the wrestling talk over any other kind of conversation or story - even in the midst of a pro wrestling shoot interview. So there's that. And it's likely a leading reason for why he's never fully committed to any kind of "tell all" wrestling book also. Releasing your journal is one thing. But sitting down, recalling a lifetime of memories - some good, some bad, and putting them out there is a whole other beast. Oh. And holy shit. Ricky Morton as a member of Raven's Flock? I've honestly never heard that. Could've been fucking aces - at least in the entertainment department. I have no doubt that it would result in numerous poor life decisions on Ricky's part, just being in that locker room setting at that time & place. But Christ. The sheer angle itself, with Morton being this former heartthrob & fallen teen idol with no place left to turn, sounds phenomenal. He'd be living out this pro wrestling mid-life crisis, which in turn would play up the effect of Raven's machinations. Could've been great.

I couldn't agree more. It really does feel like it's building towards the perfect in-ring story for Bayley against Sasha. First, she'll try winning with the bomb-throwing. But that won't work. Then she'll withstand the punishment, take a beating, and start stringing together some hope spots - brief comebacks, numerous roll-ups, and swift counters. But that won't seal the deal. And so then it'll come down to the big looming question of whether she can put it all together in the heat of battle - whether she can dig deep enough and put the pressure ON. Things will probably progress to a point where they question whether Bayley can get aggressive enough - a'la Zayn versus Neville with the ref bump. I just hope it isn't an obvious mirror moment of that. I don't think there's any indication that it will be, although the redemption story & title chase is very similar. It still stands out on its own merit and has been a truckload of fun to follow. Can't wait for the showdown. It's safe to say that I'm about a hundred times more invested in the outcome of Bayley's quest than just about anything they're doing on the main roster at the moment. And that's not to dismiss the big stuff either. I actually dig the buildup to Brock/Taker, the seemingly steady rise of Cesaro, the Miz hitting a new stride as an obnoxious heel personality, and some other stuff... But this Bayley story arc has been on another level. It's got this engaging appeal. It's got heart. It's got a sense of sincerity. It's got everything you want in a substantial pro wrestling program. And it's been given the stage, the platform, the room, and the time to develop. What's not to love?

Well, yeah. But I wasn't even talking about any of that stuff. Even in a strictly "pro wrestling promo" sense, Amell killed it. The guy didn't come across as scripted, handcuffed, or "acting" in any real sense. He had fire. He felt believable in that moment. From that perspective, Neville looked totally bush league. For a guy that's been performing in front of crowds as long as he has, you'd think he would've picked up a more polished promo game. It's not about what does or doesn't come natural to these guys - it's about knowing that, at some point, it'll be called upon you to tackle that sort of stuff in this field of work. Neville just sounded like a stage frightened kid in some play, desperately trying to recall his lines while the others guys spoke & then hit them without missing too many beats. Just awful. And yeah. I'm someone that actually dug his edited, sit-down stuff in NXT. That is about the only way they should present him. Plopping him in the middle of the ring with Rene or doing backstage skits with him just isn't gonna do him any favors. It's one of those baffling cases where they could just play to his strengths and not risk exposing his weaknesses that way. But that's not their approach. Ever, pretty much. And so he'll keep having incredible matches here & there - like the one with Rollins - but then he'll turn around and look like a total goof with a mouthful of marbles in situations like these. He's a deer caught in headlights in these live talking segments.

Still slowly making my way through this one and thoroughly enjoying it. Just a ton of interesting stuff to hear tossed around. It's great to hear some praise for Al Snow's earlier work. I remember a time when he was being talked about a lot in the mags as the "best kept secret" in wrestling for awhile there. Never knew about all the New Japan ties to the "radicalz" initial contracts with WCW. I definitely agree that they probably went the best route in the long run by hitting WCW first. I just can't see them getting featured as much in the WWF as they did with WCW's cruiserweight division, numerous titles, and three-hour Nitros. Kroffat & Furnas in WCW could've been VERY cool to see, too. Matches with the Steiners, the Faces of Fear, the Roadies, Sting/Luger, and others would have been a tremendous upgrade from what we got with their Fed run, I think. Great stuff so far, guys. Still only about halfway through, but this one's already a winner.

Yeah. Miz has been a fantastic heel lately. It was his big personality and knack for showmanship that got him so over in the first place, which is what led to them going full-throttle with him towards the title run. Honestly, in hindsight, it came way too soon and didn't quite click like some thought it could have. And I really don't think he's the type to put in that spot to begin with, but he's perfectly suitable for being a mid-card heat magnet. All that being said, with him returning to form here lately, it's almost enough to make me think they should do a program between Miz & Bryan - if & when Daniel returns to the ring. Of course, I'd cringe at the idea of Bryan trying for one of his suicide dives onto Miz on the outside. Wouldn't be a very wise. But they've got built-in history and one of those grudges they could always go back to - dating back to Bryan's very first appearance with the company. And they've got decent chemistry. Oh. And Stephen Amell owned every segment he was in here. Totally outclassed Neville in that backstage scene. Christ. I mean, the guy's like a D-list actor that gets a lot of flack for being one of those "CW angst drama" hammy types, but - even if that's the case (and it often IS with some of the the writing on Arrow unfortunately) - he didn't show it here. The guy brought the goods. Amell showed more fire & intensity in his delivery than the majority of their babyface roster - both physically and on the mic. Loved it. And it honestly has me hoping the match goes well enough that he works with them again later down the road. If his career experiences any upswing off the Ninja Turtle sequel & all that, then it could certainly happen.

Just starting to sink my teeth into this one, so I've have to hold off on anything in-depth or too detailed for now... But yeah. I'm absolutely loving this new series so far. The concept is great. It kicks the door wide open for a lot of fun & fascinating discussion. Things like that bizarre Clash in '95 and the Korean show just aren't gonna get much talk anywhere else, so it's cool to have 'em batted around here. Plus I'm not a big sheets or rumors guy & never have been, so maybe that helps my enjoyment of this stuff. Like I said, I haven't heard much yet... but I'm already digging some of the random stuff mentioned - the idea of a babyface Vader versus the Giant and the notion of running Orndorff versus Hogan in '95 are two things I honestly never considered. You've gotta believe Bischoff would've run with it though. He was just a huge mark for any & all retread WWF feuds. And I'm kind of with you guys in wishing it would've gone down, at least in some capacity. I mean, maybe I'm in the minority, but I REALLY enjoyed the hell out of the Piper/Hogan feud as a revisited "never-ending grudge" the way it was presented in '96 WCW. Didn't care for the matches, but the angle itself was pretty damn great in its time. Anyway... I've got another hectic work week ahead of me, so I'll be listening to this one in separate sessions & probably chiming in with more comments here and there. But it's awesome listening so far.