SomethingSavage

Heyman absolutely helped to infuse the product with renewed energy for awhile there, especially throughout the spring months after the product took a dip following Mania X7. Paul E's commentary practically did for RVD and Rhyno in 2001 what his booking would do for Rey (and some of the SmackDown Six) in 2004.

This. All of THIS. Ya just about perfectly summed up my thoughts & feelings on the show, man. I'd held off on saying anything about the Steel Cage Match until I went back & watched it a second time, but yeah. I just don't get all the hate, I guess. Don't get me wrong. I can definitely see how some people would be turned away by the finish, but come on. The in-ring action was fine. No. There was no takeaway visual or lasting imprinted image of Wyatt soaked in blood, which ABSOLUTELY would've enhanced things a few notches. But the action itself was solid stuff. I find that I'm actually a lot higher on the Cena/Wyatt series than just about everybody lately. I just fail to see these great big faults that people are talking up all the time. The 'Mania match suffered a lot from that over-the-top, melodramatic broadway-style storytelling they like to do. But that's it. The heavy-handed "acting as if everything should be epic" mannerisms aside, the action itself was (again) solid enough. The big spots still felt big. The bombs still looked devastating. Ditto for the Cage Match, which actually WASN'T hindered by the same style of storytelling. It was slow in certain spots, but that's bound to happen with ANY cage match you're gonna get. There were numerous escape attempts that seemed a tad illogical or out of place, but it's almost an expected sin with Steel Cage Matches by now. There was still a lot of cool stuff worked into the bout though. Honestly, their Mania match got dragged down by the slow, big picture storytelling. It left a flat feeling in the air, because they weren't working with any sense of urgency. Maybe they were working hard, but it never felt like a fight. There was no sense of danger or intensity around a lot of it. Too much talking and acting. And thankfully, I didn't get that same vibe with the Cage Match - which is why I find it even more bizarre that people are bashing it so hard. But hey. To each their own... As far as the Shield stuff goes, I really dig the decision to run with them as a group. Keeping them a collective unit is the way to go for now, because I really think the money IS in the group. Not the individuals alone. Not yet. They're gearing up Reigns the right way, regardless of whether everyone buys into it lock, stock, and barrel at this exact moment or not. He's got that Diesel design all around him. They're getting ready to launch the guy, but it's cool to see them showing some patience with it. They seem to purposely be prolonging the solo run, and that makes perfect sense. No need to rush a split for the Shield just yet. And again, much like their last encounter with the Wyatts on main event, the Shield blew me away with just how awesome they are as a babyface unit now. Rollins has the perfect move-set for it, and Reigns has the perfect push. But man oh man, Ambrose is SUPREME in the role. Never would've expected it to be honest, but he's playing it up HUGE as the babyface in peril. His comebacks aren't anything extraordinary either, but they're exciting as heck and explosive. They're filled with that sense of urgency and intensity that separates mediocre babyfaces from the most memorable and fiery of babyfaces.

Back to Lawler's announcing for just a bit - I loved the "Jerry's son" stuff with Brian Christopher, especially when he was in the light heavyweight mix. I know people are highly critical of Brian competing in that division, but I don't care. I found it really entertaining, with Jerry constantly ducking & dodging the accusations - yet openly cheerleading for Christopher at every twist and turn. Fun stuff. And sure. The constant kissing up to Mr. McMahon was classic heel King. I dug all that stuff. He didn't really start to become a bit tiresome until all the "Puppy" nonsense sprung up in '99 with Debra, but by then - the product was so hot and the women were such a small portion of the show, it didn't really do much to detract from anything major for me. I still stand by the statement that King's real drop-off in quality came with the face turn and the angle versus Tazz. Once he started being buddy cop to JR and playing it up as his pal, it kind of killed that chemistry that they'd held onto for so long. And if that didn't do the trick, then his time away from TV in '01 certainly did. The dynamic between Heyman and JR was so significantly better than anything we'd ever gotten with Lawler and Ross. It's like Lawler simply wasn't funny anymore. And once the PG movement kicked in, he'd certainly lost the source for pretty much all his good material anyhow.

The worst part about modern day Lawler, for me, is that he's apparently dragging down the ENTIRE commentary booth. His bad jokes and poor timing have become this infectious cancer that has spread over to Bradshaw, who was at least quite the breath of fresh air upon his initial return to the table. Now it's just like the announcers have become this thing that you have to tolerate to get the rest of the show. And while I agree that some shifting and moving around should be in order behind the booth, I don't exactly know WHO ya plug into that spot. It's a matter of trust and faith, really. And that's a big leap to take when you're talking LIVE television. So I can't fault 'em too much for being resistant or hesitant to that sort of change. And while they've got younger, newer announcers at their disposal - some of them just aren't polished enough for that position yet. Yes. They do okay on NXT or whatever, but even on Main Event - the broadcast is loaded with blown calls, tripping over words, etc. And I can see how that would make them think twice. Regal and Renee are solid choices. Regal's analysis SHOULD be a lock, to be honest. And I love it anytime we get Renee doing commentary on NXT, but I'm not so sure it'd translate the same in terms of putting her as a permanent voice at the booth. She's got this lively, bubbly, energetic, and exuberant presence. But I could see it becoming too much too quickly if it's done on a regular basis. Sometimes, less is more there. I personally dig the idea of a rotating cast around Cole (as the anchor), although I don't think that'd ever be done for anything more than a brief, temporary basis. But going back to Attitude Era Lawler for a moment? It's awfully bizarre how a middle-aged man seemed to fit so well into THAT environment, and yet he's seemed completely outdated & out of his element in anything & everything ever since.

I'm that way, only in reverse (somewhat). For me, nothing beats kicking back & watching modern wrestling with the ole G-Paw, a lifelong fan himself. His favorite era came and went with McGuirk, Watts, and Mid-South - but he still follows the product faithfully today. It's awesome having him throw fits of rage for the heels, applaud all babyfaces, and pretty much just make behaving like a mark so darn fun. It's why I try not to take all the online criticisms and stuff too seriously. It's SO much more fun to just lighten up & enjoy most of this stuff through those eyes. That being said, I took him to a house show awhile back. Front row seats were cheap enough & easy to come by, so I snagged 'em up. We sat next to some college kids that decided to play dress-up. One was just sporting a ref shirt. The other two had lucha masks. Another in what looked like random indie face-paint. Anyhow, my G-Paw's antics and ringside raving got over HUGE with 'em. He'd go from shouting obscenities at Randy Orton to yelling at the kid in the ref shirt to jump the rail and "DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, DAMMIT." Just good times.

I've only heard him in bits, pieces, and spots. What's his hang-up exactly? Similar to Ross?

You really got sideways with the Bradshaw reference. I never proposed that they book Bryan like a B-level talent on any B-show. I was merely talking about the idea of taking a stale character or a stalled mid-card act & hitting the refresh button on 'em. Guys like Del Rio, Ziggler, Sheamus, and several other former World Champs spring to mind immediately. Maybe a Bad News Barrett reference would've gotten over with ya more, but you get the point. It's a tried & true method of just rejuvenating somebody and making them into a believable challenger in a short amount of time. I know it turned the stomach of A LOT of fans to see Bradshaw get that spot, that push, and eventually that win over Eddie. But it was an entertaining feud nonetheless, and the promos were gold. GOLD, I tell ya. Plus it was done almost out of necessity, since they didn't have many other options or avenues for Eddie at the time. There was a hurt Kurt, sidelined until later that summer. And Brock had just bolted. They went with a longstanding company guy, got behind him, and gave him a shot. Bray versus Bryan is an obvious path they could've taken. The story writes itself. The rematch books itself. There's a built-in logic behind it, and Bray has been positioned so highly up the card against Cena so consistently now that it wouldn't take any effort whatsoever to get the ball rolling for it. I'm in absolute agreement about throwing Bryan into an abundance of gimmick matches and stuff right away.

Maybe I'm in the minority or out of the loop on general consensus, but I don't care. I dug Attitude Era Lawler. It's the only time I found Jerry tolerable as an announcer, to be honest. Everything after his 2001 return has been terrible though. Heck, I think it goes back to the face turn against Tazz, really. Once he stopped being the voice of the heels and lightened up, it just took the life & the spark right out of his act as an announcer.

Can't speak for everybody, but I always enjoyed Tony Schiavone's announcing up into (at least) late '97 or so. By '98, he had clearly lost some of that exuberance and enthusiasm, and it was seeming like he was phoning in a lot of the effort. Same with Heenan, really. Maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I mean, perhaps it was the overall product. Things were still rolling really strong in '97, and the in-ring performances were mostly awesome. It's possible that it factored into giving them reason to call better matches and be more attentive to the stuff going on right in front of them.

The funny thing is - the caller tried to put on his best respectful reporter voice to word the question, without coming across as a prick. But come on. And yeah. Basically, the caller just asked Steve to address the domestic dispute disturbances from his past. Caller claimed it was the only blemish and "disappointing" fact he found about Austin, as if Stone Cold should care I guess. Wade promptly puts the caller on hold. Steve's response is quick and merciless. "This really... This really... This really IDN'T THE PLACE to talk about stuff like that. Go on ahead and go to the next question." And that was it. Caller proceeded to ask his next couple of questions, aimed more at Steve's career and a little less at the personal side.

Hmm. Highly insightful rundown there, man. Hadn't really looked at it that way before, but the theory totally makes sense to me. They never really attempted to branch out and "create" new fans. They weren't exactly broadening the audience at a time when they were exciting, new, and offering the best on the indies. By the time they scored a TV deal and a means to try new things, they weren't quite the same ROH that had been so hyped and popularized for so long. Combine that failure to reach new fans along with the regulars becoming disenchanted and uninterested in the new direction, and yeah. That's where the real drop-off is felt. They not only failed to maintain the loyalty of many longtime fans, but they struggled with establishing any new ones. I can see that.

What the..? Is there suddenly some sense of sympathy surging up for Batista now? I miss a meeting or something? At this point though, I honestly think I'd rather see them payoff the Kane/Bryan feud on a random RAW or something and actually run the 'Tista program for the next PPV. Special event. Whatever. At least it's somewhat fresh, and despite the neat spots of their Extreme Rules encounter last night, I just don't have much faith in Buried Alive Matches as being anything close to good. Pretty much ever. So yeah. I'd run the Buried Alive deal on RAW, try and bump a rating with that, and then gloss back over to Batista/Bryan to wrap up Dave's run this time around. Oh. And there are a lot of options for guys to step in (or up) and face Bryan. They just need to get creative. The future of contenders to Austin's crown looked awfully bleak back in '98, too - but they filled time with the awesome Cactus turn. The Dude Love feud got really GREAT really quick. For a few weeks though, they had Austin fending off Hunter, Shawn's lackey, for filler. By the time they wrapped up the Love stuff, they had a ready-made monster in Kane to move over into a program. From there came the teased tension with Taker, that blow-off, and by then they had elevated Rocky enough to feel like the next viable guy. What I'm saying is - there are a lot of guys that they could look to for that fill-in role, similar to what they did with Dude Love in '98. Or heck, even Bradshaw for Eddie back in '04. It's a matter of rejuvenating careers and refreshing characters. A switch for Sheamus or a "Hall of Pain" type push on somebody could work wonders to make them come across as legitimate threats and challengers for Bryan in the months to come.

Finally got around to scoping out the Sacrifice show. Not as bad as I'd expected going in, but yeah. It's just so hard to take them seriously at this stage. I've followed the product since day one, so it kind of sucks to say that. But it is what it is. The in-ring performances were solid, for the most part. The energy was there. The effort was there. And the workers delivered on several levels. But there's a major case of mismanagement when it comes to their upper echelon. Cramming the likes of Kurt Angle and Jeff Hardy into their situation is just crazy, for one. Jeff shouldn't be allowed to tuck himself under some horrid indie mask and gimmick, simply because it lets him feel artistic and expressive. Give the guy a role that brings new guys up to his level, or let him walk. He's not contributing much of anything at this phase, and that's a shame. He was SO freaking over after his late 2011 return and subsequent title run. Where'd all that momentum go? It's been rapidly floundered. James Storm is a guy that's being used to elevate someone new in Gunner, sure. But Storm's hardly a star of the same caliber, and he's not really in THAT kind of position to be "making" a new guy. Heck, he needs rebuilding and re-evaluating himself. His career path has sadly gone off the rails, when he's precisely the type of individual they should be piling some stock into when their roster is this depleted. Creative just feels aimless, and that's the major problem for me. The opener at Sacrifice, for instance, was something I found to be incredibly entertaining. Just a fun, fast-paced, fierce method to get the belts back on the Wolves. Enjoyed it a great deal. Some neat spots worked into the No DQ format, and it got us to the ultimate goal they wanted there. Things COULD remain this simple all up & down the card. Regarding the phantom ref bump though - I haven't had the chance to check out Impact just yet, so I'm unsure if they actually addressed it or not. I think there's a quick, basic built-in solution to the error - just by having it explained that Dixie (the boss) convinced the ref (the employee) to "take a dive" that "coincidentally" allowed Roode to win. Not the best fix, but it fits. Did they even bother to talk about it? Or simply ignore it? Seems like an easy fix to me.

Sadly, there aren't too many good things to come out of ROH since '08 or so. The super push for Tyler Black was so stalled by all the starts & stops that it barely meant ANYTHING by the time he actually won the belt. The payoff just felt flat. Outside of the epic Steen/Generico saga, I can't really think of too many angles that left a mark. It was one of those broad, sweeping story arcs that draw you in and capture your imagination for a good chunk of time. Highly enjoyable, and given enough pawns & players to keep it fresh the entire time - right up to the huge finale in their Ladder War, which was as good a sendoff for Generico as you were gonna get in ROH. I don't know. For me, personally - ROH has fallen pretty far down the pecking order as far as my favorite indies go. Sucks to say it, but it's true. When I have some time to kill, I'd MUCH rather watch a Guerrilla or Championship From Hollywood show instead. I will say this - I really, REALLY dig the Maria/Bennett combo. Very much carry that Edge/Lita vibe to them, and I eat that stuff up. Hanson's another guy I'll keep my eye on. But that's about it these days. The likes of Cole, Steen, etc. are better represented in their angles & matches over on the West Coast with PWG. Oh, and spoiler: Something Savage - not Irish. Sadly, also not a Poffo.

Yeah. There's a good stretch of enjoyable NWO-era PPVs in '97 alone. Great American Bash, Spring Stampede, and Slamboree are tremendous for their undercards alone, and even the main events delivered. They aren't the type that dragged the rest of the events down.

Hated the initial months & roll-out of the Hogan/Bischoff era. Can't stand looking back at most of 2010 because of it. Things didn't pick up for me until 2011, when they started rebuilding the X-Division. The angle with Abyss and his Art of War fascination was great. The use of Kendrick as the dragon-slayer was a story told properly for a change. It was allowed to simmer and build to a fitting and SATISFYING conclusion. From the point Jeff Hardy left, 2011 got REALLY good for me. Sting's title reign didn't even drag it down. The Joker Sting stuff was hokey, sure. But the intro of it was creepy enough to work. The feud with Anderson didn't make for good matches, but it made for entertaining enough TV in the meantime. That brought us up to the BFG series, which quickly became a smash hit with me. Enjoyed the format, and I love the way they used it to TRULY ELEVATE new guys for a change. Roode and Storm left imprints. Gunner turned heads. And Bully was almost completely rebuilt in the midst of it all. Beneath them, guys like Joe were given stuff to do again. Ditto for Morgan. And yes. The way they wrapped up Sting/Hogan was better than anything I'd expected from them, to be brutally honest. 2012 was probably their best year since the heyday of the X-Division (05-06, I'm thinking?) though. The Roode reign. The tale of redemption sought by James Storm. The Lockdown event as a whole. Heck, the Slammiversary event. The rise of an awesome heel act in Bad Influence. I could go on & on.

I think there's honestly more to dislike about the early shows than there is to really enjoy in terms of re-watch value, but that doesn't mean they aren't totally worth exploring again. If you're unfamiliar, then they're certainly worth seeking out & seeing for the FIRST time. Just not particularly a lot of cards from early ROH days that have me going back to 'em as "glory years" or anything. Maybe that's just me. There were clearly still a lot of kinks to iron out, but I think Gabe eventually found his footing as overall booker and hit a MAJOR stride - despite what some people may say or think about the guy. For a few years there, he managed to maintain a firm grasp on SO FREAKING MUCH stuff. He was juggling plenty of entertaining programs, and most of it felt like authentic old-school angles brought into modern day terms. That's it. Simple. Straightforward. Streamlined. There were still truckloads of indie-riffic spots and botches, sure. There was mismanagement of card structure. Absolutely. But a lot of the angles were compelling and engaging, but they weren't too contrived. And thankfully, ROH couldn't afford a budget to make them TOO silly or polished anyhow. So we got things like the basic Joe/Punk series, centered around competition. We got sagas like the stuff with Jacobs, like a take on Sullivan brought up to date with digital & social media. And it clicked. It made ROH, for a time, a VERY hot product. Not really sure what the general consensus is around this board, but I'd be intrigued to know what most of ya think is the real moment they jumped the shark. Was it the TV deal? Gabe's burnout? Gabe's replacement? The stalling with Tyler Black's ascension? The Lynn tribute title run? Pearce? Delirious? Just curious.

Really enjoyed the heck out of the episode first pimping the IC Contender's Tourney from a few weeks back, with you guys making your picks - but this one's been the best of the bunch for me thus far. Thoroughly dug the discussion in this one. The predictions gave way to some unique spins & perspectives that I hadn't necessarily picked up on or explored before. Just genuinely good talk. I know Scott keeps mentioning the rotating crew, but I think it enhances the show. Similar to the Pro Super Show, it's a benefit to have things fresh and circulate in some new ideas and takes on things. Good work, guys. Thumbs up to all involved. Great recommended listening right here.

There honestly wasn't a whole lot of meat to the Undertaker character in the beginning. You say he never did anything to compromise that character, and sure. I can see that. But really, what did that entail actually? Playing a zombie? He basically went out there and did a Michael Myers monster movie impersonation for a few minutes each night, along with the sit-up spot. The only REAL athletic thing they had him doing for years was the rope-walk, and it's something he picked up right away in training camp. So why not? By the time he started working a more athletic, believable style - it was because they'd allowed him the freedom to do so. And it didn't risk doing any damage to the character either. Basically, I think the limitations of the Taker character were mutually beneficial, because they helped to cover up Callaway's own limitations at a point in his career when he wasn't so developed anyhow. But by the time he began to work a more versatile style, it sure seemed like he didn't mind if it "compromised" any aspects of the undead zombie act he did for so many years ago. And true. Paul Bearer was fantastic in transforming himself from Pringle the Third to fit that specific role, sure. But that's Percy. I take nothing away from Callaway as a performer & a worker, but the guy wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire for those first few years. Not trying to say Taker didn't function as an authentic attraction early on. Obviously there was a demand there, otherwise I don't see them ever slotting him up against Hogan so freaking soon. It worked, but I'm not so sure it clicked in AS BIG a way AS QUICKLY as the Wyatt stuff has. Feel free to disagree, and I can't say whether one's right or one's wrong. But I just never got that impression from Taker's early days. They seemed a lot more stalled, start and stop, and hit or miss to me. Bray's been lightning since day one. He elicited a response right away, and - to their credit - they've stuck with it. I'm not seeking to downplay either Bray or Undertaker as characters. Both clearly made immediate impacts upon their arrival. But to cast Bray aside as nothing more than an entrance or a gimmick - this deep into his run - is STILL reaching pretty far, in my view.

Bray Wyatt might not have dollar signs written all over his act, but I think he'd fit just fine among the upper echelon of the company in the long haul. The real test is making it out of this Cena program untarnished. He's got to come out feeling like a stronger CHARACTER, because that's where the strength of his whole act lies. It's in his character and the presentation of that image. If they get too reckless with booking his wins & losses, then he comes across as just what some of you are saying - a mid-carder mixing it up temporarily with the main event guys. I think they kind of rushed Bray into a top spot too soon, but the crowd reaction's there. So it's hard to fault 'em too much for that. Linger too long on it, and ya risk ruining that. Rush it, and ya risk having to cool him off just to try and reheat him again later down the line. That's just a piece of the problem. More on point though, I think Wyatt as a character functions just fine in a similar vein as the Kanes and Takers that came before him. He could be the monstrous outsider that kind of just operates outside of the title picture most of the time - doing his own thing, working his own programs, etc. Then, whenever the timing calls for it, pull him back into the main scheme of things & let him run a race or two in the title picture. Same deal we saw with Taker for years on & off. The guy's still young. The character's still VERY fresh. And ya don't take something that the crowd's so clearly into and toss it away. At one time, Taker wasn't much more than an entrance either. Guys have been strictly a "look" or a "move" or a "catchphrase" before - and then they've gone on to have legitimate runs or longevity. So counting Bray out or casting him aside so early on is really reaching, in my eyes. I just find there to be a great wealth of untapped potential - both in the guy as a worker AND (perhaps more importantly) as a character.

Nice line of questions we got going here. Especially like the one about the cycled booking styles posed by Kris. Should make for meaty discussion, if King gets around to answering 'em.

I honestly wish they'd borrow MORE elements from the old "Sully in Florida" playbook with Bray, if anything. The approach might not be anything new, but it could be modified & updated to fit with the times a bit. Plus it's being played to a broader audience on a different stage at this point. New fans would never know the difference, and it could make for neat callbacks for those in the know. I believe the Cena feud would only benefit from a shift in seriousness and tone. I don't care for the heavy-handed way they're suddenly emphasizing Bray's message as a "virus" and whatnot, really. It's got all the subtlety of a brick being thrown at your face. I'd rather see some of those things IMPLIED to generate visceral, gut reactions based on our human nature - not shoved down our throats by a commentary team that'll quickly gloss over it, just to get back to their Twitter pimping. But that's me. And yeah. I know the Sullivan stuff was anything but subtle in retrospect. But different time. Different place. Different audience base. That "talking in tongues" gibberish at least elicited the kind of response they wanted with their crowds at the time. Ditto for all the otherworldly threats, etc.

Haha. I just scanned back & caught the Morishima typo. But yeah. Ya know what I meant. =D

Meh. To each their own, regarding Whitmer. I personally don't find it too ridiculous to assume others would find enjoyment and entertainment value in watching a whirlwind of meaningless Whitmer bombs for the duration of a single match on a card. There's plenty of guys on the independent scene that have done, are doing, and will continue to commit the same mistakes. Not EVERYTHING is going to build to a grander story, an epic tale, or even be conducive to the REST of the card. It happens. And true. Cabana as a character is one of the most undervalued things, I think, in retrospect. Guys like that stand out so much more within the landscape of ROH than they would elsewhere. It's like when they first let the likes of Low-Ki or Homicide bring the violence. It felt at least slightly unique TO THEM and so much more meaningful as a result. It felt like it could leave a lasting memory or an imprint. The Bryan Danielson versus Homicide series deserves a mention, by the way. Even higher up the list should be Hiroshima/Danielson. And I always got a kick out of the Jimmy Rave push. I know it has a truckload of its critics and then some, but it really played off the hostilities of the ROH-bots. That kind of crowd truly DESPISED everything about Rave, and it just fit. It made for built-in, easily accessible heat. And the toilet paper as streamers thing was just a nice freaking touch on the fans' part.

Let's hear his list of the Top Five punchers. =D