BillThompson

Supreme Pro Wrestling: Sacramento (12-17-2012) Brian Tannen vs. Timothy Thatcher Neat short match where Thatcher acts very un-Thatcher like. He plays the face in this match, which is never a role I've seen him take on in a match. He's playful as the babyface, mocking Tannen and playing to the crowd to get under Tannen's skin. I'm not sure if Thatcher can be a babyface long term, but in this match he's able to pull off being a face very well. Mostly it further adds to the idea of Thatcher being extremely versatile and not just capable of working a single specific style. Being the babyface Thatcher has to bump a little more and his offense has to have a bit more pep to it. He succeeds in executing both, working well from underneath to make Tannen seem like a true power guy who can, and is, tossing Thatcher around with relative ease. Thatcher times his comebacks really well, his European Uppercuts are especially nice to see as he really puts some pop behind them and hits them at the right time and elicits a pretty vocal babyface reaction from the crowd when he uses them. Tannen is good as well, really playing up the jock idiot aspects of his character. He's able to keep pace with Thatcher on the mat, but he does so in a much more cumbersome fashion. Tannen presents himself as a skilled wrestler, but still a jock who can't be smooth because there's no way a jock would be smooth. His offense is more clubbing than anything else, but it really fits his character. From bell to bell a well done sprint. They played to the crowd really nicely and told a neatly compact story. Thatcher looked great as the babyface and Tannen was really good as a the boorish heel. Quality professional wrestling this match be.

I just hope they start uploading more old content at a brisker and more logical pace. They own the footage, they need to put it to use and in a way that will make sense, like upload all of Mid-South TV over a few months, but do it chronologically.

Unknown Promotion: Unknown Event (09-11-2011) Perry von Vicious & Timothy Thatcher vs. Suburban Commandos (D-Rent & T-Unit) Paint by numbers tag match where Thatcher doesn't do much of anything. The match has its moments, but to be honest most of them are courtesy of the double teaming from the Commandos. There's really not much to say when it comes to Thatcher in this match, he's just kind of there.

Pro Wrestling Revolution: Watsonville (06-08-2014) Timothy Thatcher vs. El Pistolero An interesting styles clash and one that works for the most part. There are a couple of exchanges where neither man is on the same page, but they are small in the grander scope of the match. Ultimately this is the Thatcher offense and Pistolero selling show. Both men do really well at both of those facets in this match. Thatcher viciously attacks Pistolero's arm, really working it over. Again he shows a pleasant amount of variety busting a couple of new moves to work over the arm. Pistolero sells the arm work like the vicious affront to his person that it is. The end comes suddenly, but it's been well built to and really works. A very short match, not so much a sprint as a methodical beatdown that is well bumped and sold for.

Pro Wrestling Bushido: Lucha Rulez 6 (01-11-2012) Johnny Goodtime vs. Sami Callihan vs. Timothy Thatcher This is a Three Way match for Timothy Thatcher's PWB Heavyweight Championship. Three way matches aren't for me, at least not ones that take place in the singles ranks. This one is no different. I give all three gentlemen credit for trying early on to work a faster pace that makes the inevitable :one guy sitting around and waiting for the others guy to do their thing" stuff not as terrible as could be. The first half of the match is not big on Thatcher, he spends most of his time down and selling so that Goodtime and Callihan can go at it. All three are good workers and that shines through even the overly choreographed and bad looking three way spots. I really can't forgive the triple submission spots though, those are just stupid. The second half of the match has more of Thatcher, and it is not unexpectedly a little bit better than the first half. He really lays into his strikes and executes some stiff looking moves. Still, Thatcher's style isn't really suited for the mayhem and melee that is a three way match and it comes across loud and clear in this match. That's probably why he spent so much time down on the mat selling, because Thatcher as a grappler just doesn't fit into a spotty three way. Of course if that's the match the other two guys want to work then it's up to Thatcher to work that match and make the best of it. He doesn't really and truly do that here and the match suffers accordingly. The best part of this match is when Thatcher almost executes a Baseball Slide Dropkick, but it ends up just a sick tease. A tough match for me to write about because honestly I'm not the audience for three way matches as they aren't my cup of tea. As I said earlier all three men are good workers, but this wasn't the environment for them to really shine.

We probably do, in the interest of discussion you could always share why you don't think Sasha is a good worker.

I think Sasha is better than either of them. Only one who I think comes close would be Fabi Apache, and she doesn't have the output anymore. Maybe Heidi Lovelace if she wasn't so concerned with being primarily an inter-gender wrestler, which does limit her somewhat.

As much as I love Hardy I'd go with Alberto as the bigger star. He has an international appeal that I don't think Matt possesses, he did accomplish more in WWE, and when those are combined I think he's a bigger get for RoH.

I'm not really arguing for that, as I happen to like Charlotte and think she's really good. But, it's kind of like how even though I liked Johnny B Badd in 1995 and thought he was really good I wouldn't take him over Brian Pillman or watch the two of them and think Badd was more the all world talent just because at that stage he came across as more athletically gifted in the ring,

I just don't see it with Charlotte. She's talented, she's still super green but honestly I see her as someone who will leave a lot of talent at the door because she worries too much about athleticism. Whereas Sasha has athleticism but focuses more on the other aspects of her game and is already great (best in the world even) with more room for improvement. In terms of selling, bumping, application of athleticism, putting a match together, in-ring character, and any category you can think of outside of pure athleticism I think Sasha is leagues better than Charlotte and always will be.

Listening to Live Audio Wrestling today and I don't think I've ever disagreed more with Meltzer on the potential of two wrestlers than I do when it comes to his take on Charlotte and Sasha Banks. I get that they're women wrestlers in North America employed by the WWE, so most don't care. However, I'm high on both of them, although I think it's clear as day that Sasha is the far better worker and has firmly established herself as the best female worker in the world currently. She's the complete package with far more upside still to come in the ring. That's not a knock on Charlotte, who I think is pretty good but extremely raw and more a talented athlete than a talented worker. I think she's slowly learning how to be a better worker and has become darn good. Meltzer feels the exact opposite is true, and try as I might I just can't see it. I agree with him that Charlotte will be the face of the women's division moving forward and has more money making potential, but neither of those elements really matter to me. It's not like Meltzer is the end all and be all when it comes to evaluating talent, but when it comes to the respective potential (talent wise) of Charlotte and Sasha I think Dave is stuck in a bizarro world.

Supreme Pro Wrestling: Unknown Event (03-20-2011) Cjay Kurz vs. Timothy Thatcher This is for Thatcher's SPW Heavyweight Championship. A very interesting, and nearly great match. Kurz very early on establishes that he's not a grappler in the Thatcher sense but more of a shoot stylist. Thatcher is really good at giving offense to Kurz, at working within a more shoot style to really put over the immediacy of Kurz's approach. There's an early segment where they exchange reversals on the ground, working within the concept of BJJ with guard, half mount, and full mount exchanges. It's all so very interesting, and very well done. The match picks up even more once Thatcher goes on the offensive, because he does bring is old school grappling style to bear. However, in his efforts to get the approach of Kurz over Thatcher melds his style with what Kurz is doing. He never completely takes over the match, and he augments his attacks to be based more on quickly destructive as opposed to wearing down and working over a limb. Thatcher adds in little flourishes like a nifty Hangman's Swinging Armbreaker, which I don't recall seeing before or since, but it sure as heck is a great move to add variety to working over an arm. The whole while Kurz keeps working in his shoot style stuff, and adds some pro wrestling touches as well. Of special note was the way he modified a Lung Blower so that he executed it from the side and put all the impact of his knees into the side of Thatcher's ribs. Where the match falters is when both guys attempt to get too cute. There's a Kurz springboard into a Thatcher European Uppercut that is slightly off, and another attempted Spingboard DDT from Kurz later in the match that goes horribly awry. Unfortunately that is the set up for the finish, and the initial mess up just leads to the entire finishing stretch coming across as being off. It didn't help matters that going for a Kurz German Suplex where Thatcher gets his shoulder up at the last second to win isn't a finish that works within the story and execution of the match prior. I don't want to sell Kurz short. He had his guffaws with the ropes, but all in all he was on point in this match and presented a very different style for Thatcher to work with. That made for a very interesting match, with the icing on the cake being the 98% of the match was well worked and very well thought out. Matches like this are a real boon to Thatcher as they show he's not a one trick pony and can easily switch his style to fit his opponents and get something great without applying the same approach.

Supreme Pro Wrestling: Sacramento (01-16-2011) Mike Rayne vs. Timothy Thatcher This is for Thatcher's SPW Heavyweight Championship. For the most part this is an interesting test to see if Thatcher can produce a good match when he's forced to wrestle himself. Rayne is utterly useless, an embarrassingly bad professional wrestler. His offense is not fitted for his frame and he struggles so mightily with his Kicks that it's business exposing bad in its assisted choreography. There's never a point in this match when Rayne contributes anything worthwhile, and he even manages to botch the ending by attempting to do the after the three count kickout but kicking out too early. As for Thatcher, he tries, but there's not much he can do. He does his usual stuff, he bumps for whatever the hell it is that Rayne's offense is supposed to. Still, Thatcher isn't really suited to be a one man show, and this match accentuates how good Thatcher is at giving to opponents and making them look good in the process. I really can't fault Thatcher for this match being as terrible as it is because he wasn't working with an actual professional wrestler.

Maybe you're right, but as far as all time elite wrestlers of recent years go Hash and Virus are the two who I feel get the least amount of lip service. Of course, maybe it's just that I missed the conversations or am overthinking the whole matter, it's certainly a possibility.

I'm actually looking forward to Barrett's return most out of everyone on that list. Really like the guy and hope he can stay healthy this time.

I second this. I haven't made any suggestions since I'm involved with the Dorada pick. But, I think the two super workers who are most overlooked in my mind are Hash and Virus. A spotlight on either of them would be grand.

Supreme Pro Wrestling: Sacramento (08-21-2011) Sal Thomaselli vs. Timothy Thatcher There's a definite sense that these guys are never on the same page and that really hurts the match. Thomaselli is fast and athletic enough to keep up with Thatcher, and there are times when he looks very good in his movements. However, for the most part this is a tale of two guys who are reading from the same book, but one is always a page or two ahead or behind of the other. This makes for some very odd sequences, such as when Thatcher goes to run the ropes but he doesn't time it right and thus he just stands still like an idiot for a few seconds and waits for Thomaselli to get into position and then runs the ropes as if nothing has happened. It's all very odd and very off, not the sort of match that gives one much to chew on. I'll say this much, this is the sort of match that work's against my case for Thatcher as a top 100 guy. There will be matches where timing will be off, but Thatcher needed to do more to reign that element in and better deal with the timing issues. He shouldn't have looked as lost as he did at times, and thankfully I think this is an area he has greatly improved upon in the following years. If this match were to happen today Thatcher would do a much better job of rolling with the punches and improvising. Alas, it doesn't really matter how much present day Thatcher has improved because he still has this performance in his ledger, and it's not a good one.

Your willingness to dismiss/ignore any point that runs counter to your argument is quite astounding, I'll give you that much. Whatever, you've shown time and again in this topic that you're not willing to actually engage on the topic and instead would rather spout empty rhetoric to prop up your strawman. What a waste of time.

Rewatching, and reevaluating, older works is a vital part of viewing art. You remove that from the equation and art is a lifeless construct with no value or meaning. I've said it before, but Dave's stance on reevaluating old footage isn't just odd, it's stupid and makes absolutely no sense from any perspective.

But, we are being truthful and you're being bull headed in thinking, "They see things differently than me, that's simply not possible so they clearly aren't being truthful!" It's a total strawman argument, one that you've created yourself and one where you refuse to acknowledge the points made by others because they don't coincide with the argument you want to make. It's a pretty weak argument at that, and a poorly constructed strawman to boot.

All this hot air and you ignore a post I made where I detailed the groups I would place mid to lower mid card guys in for my top 100. All in all though, it seems like all you're doing is building a strawman, and I really have no interest in that sort of debate.

All Pro Wrestling: Gym Wars (01-16-2010) Dave Dutra vs. Timothy Thatcher Another really good match between these two. Tack a few more minutes onto this and supply Dutra with more convincing offensive maneuvers and this could have been great. As is it's really good though, and a really neat mixture of Thatcher's mat based grappling and Dutra's flying based wrestling. A match like this is the sort that really makes Thatcher stand out from the pack. There are a lot of elements at play that make this the Timothy Thatcher show. He's clearly the one calling the match, and while Dutra is game he's also very green and it is Thatcher who is leading him along. Like usual Thatcher's grappling is very impressive, but it's even more impressive that he's able to offer so much up to Dutra in the grappling game. In fact, Dutra looks like he belongs on the mat with Thatcher. He's clearly a few steps behind, but Thatcher puts together the grappling sequences so that they flow nicely and don't make Dutra look bad in any fashion. There's plenty of great bumping in this match, the sort that Thatcher doesn't always get the chance to bust out. He's always in the right spot, and he works really hard to make Dutra look as believable as possible. Thatcher takes all of these elements and puts them together in a way that gives the match its high quality. That's not to say that Dutra doesn't contribute, because he certainly does. He sells the arm damage really well, and he does a terrific job of getting across the desperation he feels in avoiding the Thatcher Stretch. Offensively Dutra is at his best when he's flying, as he has a really nice Dropkick and he puts just the right amount of snap into his Reverse Elbows and Split-Legged Moonsault (complete with excellent delayed selling of the arm that leads to him missing said Moonsault). Where Dutra needs work is in his supposed high impact offensive moves. They lack true impact and ultimately they come across as empty flash. A really good match, and a match that anyone who wants to give Thatcher a shot should really check out.

Top 10 Dustin Rhodes (He spent time as an upper mid-carder and even flirted with the main event at times. Still, he was mainly a solid mid-card to lower mid-card guy for the majority of his career) Steven Regal (Perhaps I'm stretching with this one, but I've never felt he was pushed as an upper mid-carder as most companies seemed to view his ceeling as mid-card and that's where most of his feuds were placed) Top 30 Bobby Eaton (the argument could be made that his Express run is a main/semi-main run, but I love his singles work as well and it will play a large role in where I rank him and in that role I've only sever seen him as a lower mid-carder) Mascarita Dorada (He's always been pushed as a top Mini, but that in and of itself is only a mid-card position, at least in all my experiences with him that's as high as I've seen any of his programs go) Top 50 Matt Hardy (I suppose one could try and peg him as a main eventer since he was in the main event consistently for OMEGA, but I think that's a rather large stretch) Top 75 Fit Finlay (Maybe he was an upper mid-card guy in the UK, but I haven't seen any of that work. I've only ever seen him as a lower mid-card guy) Timothy Thatcher (Similar to Matt Hardy I guess someone could argue that he main evented for APW, but it's APW. Whenever he's ventured into a larger indie he's been a lower mid-card to mid-card guy at most) Yoshihiro Tajiri (I can see others saying he was upper mid-card in ECW, but I always felt he was just mid-card. In WWE he was lower mid-card, and everywhere else he's been he's never been more than mid-card) Top 100 Little Guido (I don't think he was ever higher than lower mid-card at any point in his career) Psicosis (There may be some AAA with him on top that I've missed, but in everything I've seen he's been firmly in the mid-card position)

A lot of lower mid-carders have been nominated, and I know I will have some on my ballot because the work matters to me, not placement on the card over a career.

Cena/Brock at SummerSlam?