DylanZero

So thoughts per section after looking at the numbers. Historical: Rougeau should have been in years ago, finally he is and out of everyone involved he's the feel good story of all the regions outside of perhaps Davis. It was an incomplete HoF without him. Also of note are encouraging gains for both JYD & Byers who should for sure be in and perhaps will in the near future. I thought the Von Erichs had a shot to get in coming off the movie but it didn't even get over 50. I'd probably be worried if I were a huge supporter of theirs. Cowboy Bob's rise was unexpected. If someone voted him over Curry or Firpo I'd love the explanation. Modern: I think like with all things Dave the takes on him are always "His influence means almost nothing" or "He can change the Hall on his own in one fell swoop!" when the reality is his word DOES matter but not the be all end all. You can't convince me his passionate advocating for Reigns last week wasn't a cherry on top. Orndorff getting in is a wrong righted I would argue. I was shocked Zayn didn't get at least 10%, the others I am not. Joe got a surprising amount of love, perhaps Case's article got some extra juice behind him. Although I wouldn't have argued hard against Punk, I think if nothing else we have to admit this was the funniest outcome. Japan: I said my piece already. I don't mind the people getting in but the section worries me. Mexico: Hermanos Dinamita getting in was a good call, kind of a bummer Ramirez is going off but he's hung around for awhile in a tough region. I look at this as a win for Sangre Chicana and El Dandy to see these two heavy hitters cleared out although Los Infernales won't make it easier. ROW: We're gonna see how much those Saint voters are really worth, because how in the world can you vote for Saint and not Grey? In fact, how can you vote for him and not the Royal Brothers, one of the best tag teams of over a decade, and Vic Faulkner himself may be considered one of the best of his era. How is Tarres not in period? Street over Gordienko? Show me the evidence for these things! Non-wrestler: I think with Davis in this should open the door for Bruns next year. I personally find the numbers for Sigel & Welch disappointing and with so much modern influence and different people that it's showing how hard it is for promoters to get in right now. I didn't get as down about Owen getting in as others did in the past, but if he's in how in the world can you argue against them? It shows a lack of consistency, much like Street getting so much love when you look at the totals. Puzzling. All things considered it was a good class. I see some arguments against the DG guys but overall I lean more towards the Hall needing more of that style of guys besides just Ultimo. I think Saint could be a legit gripe but despite my objections to it, his being the hyped WoS guy is yet another sin Quackenbush inflicted upon the wrestling world but the fact is he is the one that WAS directly influential to that era of workers and so here we are. And I like Saint! But not over others of his era and I feel less strongly about it since Kidd got in last year. If he weren't there I would have saw it as a bad induction. I may change my mind if Grey falls off next year. Still. I would say things worked out pretty solid overall.

In terms of Lucharesu I'm hopeful Great Sasuke gets nominated at some point to look into more. Also it will be interesting the reaction to Mochizuki being on next year.

I just want to reiterate that I personally don't have an issue with these people in and of themselves going in and certainly respect your vote for them (besides Shingo being active and having more of his career left to tell but I know it's obviously not something everyone subscribes to). I will say Shingo's Verserk run is one of my personal favorite heel runs in Japanese wrestling history and certainly in modern times. CIMA had plenty of matches I think are truly great and I respect his political game. I'm a fan of all these people in some way or another. But my problem is: Why the jumps? Shingo did nothing this year that was particularly important or memorable. I would describe his year as good, not great and certainly not anything to boost his HOF candidacy on. I watch GLEAT. I know for a fact how little CIMA has meant and he hasn't even been good unlike Shingo. We know his contributions as a talent scout and have for years. I'm not questioning that. But what is the change that got people to rally behind him so much? Again I'm not trying to question the voter base over particular guys, and if you are a Shingo/CIMA voter every year and think they're a slam dunk that's fine. My issue is 37% boosting CIMA into the Hall if you've had a vote for years and just now come around on him/them? Why? Nobody rallied for him, most people think he's a worse candidate now than 2-3 years ago. And seeing the numbers laid out like Robert gracefully has shows the concern we're talking about up and down with the Japan Region in just how far this is gonna go in years to come. Even with Hayabusa who I would put in above CIMA, he too had a huge jump. Who's to say ZSJ won't jump up 40% next year simply by being the last modern NJPW guy on the ballot? It just leaves me with many more questions than answers on this whole thing. I'm not sure what exactly can be done about it mind you but hopefully it's something we all/Dave can keep an eye on going forward because it feels like the tea leaves are turning in some not great directions.

I worry about the Japanese section in general going forward. It just feels like this strange "we MUST vote for someone as the next one up" mentality that's going in, hence CIMA & Shingo getting these big jumps and Toyota/Yamada getting a big jump as well. What did Shingo & CIMA do to raise their stock over last year? Or was it just "Shingo's turn" now that Ishii went in last year? CIMA could rightfully argue means nothing just a few years after the end of his DG run. Was significant research done into Toyota/Yamada's run before their brief but admittedly great peak after last year? If it was I didn't see that. Zack lasted on the ballot another year. TenCozy got more votes than last. Are these guys gonna linger on forever just because there's nobody else? And somehow Hayabusa will never get in despite being number 1 among active wrestlers decades after his last match.

Excellent call on Grey. In my opinion the best of the UK's workers and should have the reputation Saint has. I messaged Dave about him a few years ago myself when Ohtani's Jacket was going on with Grey and highly influential in showing me/us on here his greatness but didn't push it very hard. I'm delighted to see his name in the mix. Certainly the other 3 are gonna be people I'll love seeing, already familiar with Kellett and Leduc's work but Marino is a great choice just because in my opinion South America is woefully underrepresented as a whole and hopefully this can open the door to a super underreported on side of wrestling history and I think it's a good start. I don't know if anything more comes from it but just getting people like that on the ballot is a huge win for historians and wrestling history as a whole.

I can say this, when I put the show up with Gerard a whole host of people got ahold of his anti-Takayama in the HOF article and were really upset, dismissive and mean spirited about it and that sucked and wasn't what I want ever. I didn't say "f you" because that's lazy and easy. I had a platform and let him speak on it and heard his side out. I had Case on the very first year he got a ballot and we had a wonderful conversation even if we disagreed on some things. Eric was significantly more respectful than those types of people who were going at Gerard (and VOW since that's also a lightning rod in and of itself) and anyone can see even just through his cagematch reviews how legit his knowledge base is and how deep he goes. I get that comment was pointed a bit against non-voters but as I said Fujiwara is a lightning rod candidate and also I think seeing these modern guys get in when the same standards are not being held for them in terms of star power/legacy (you can argue they shouldn't be due to context, it's a different conversation entirely) that it's easy to think that and want to stand up that much taller, same for anti-Fujiwara in HOF people in response and it creates a loop that isn't necessary. And I'll say this. I totally agree with him that there are some people voting in this HOF who shouldn't be and I would get rid of, but it doesn't have anything to do with Fujiwara and it isn't anyone who loves wrestling and cares enough to do hours of research, write articles and appear on worldwide media shows to talk about it AND goes to PWO which we all presumably have spent hours and hours on over the years, which includes every person in this conversation right now. As I said, lightning rod candidate, things get testy, I get it. We'll see if this is the year he makes a jump. I think it's tough with no new info available, unless Dave himself suddenly goes back and is like "whoa all these Fujiwara matches in the 80s were amazing". I also think one thing that is underdiscussed is his rivalry with Super Tiger which to me is among the best in-ring rivalries of at least the 80s and significantly better than the far more influential and hailed Dynamite matches. I know that's subjective and I think Ethan's round up of him being Hall of Very Good is fair and I actually agree in terms of his drawing record that his ideal role is as "the opponent to the guy" rather than the guy. Which is valuable in real life but also not a yes as a HOF worthy, he just isn't a zero like some people say. My argument is certainly much more for in-ring plus historical. As far as Takayama, I looked up Joe's cagematch and it's anecdotal I know but he's had 11 matches rated 8 or above from 2010 to now, and that includes Rumbles and Elimination Chamber. That's a pretty damning to me, he has had a ton of opportunities in 14 years, there were long stretches of Takayama's career that never even made tape and I could probably come up with 10 great matches he's had outside of his peak. And as a draw like I said, he had one main event feud against Brock, it lasted like 2 months? I definitely loved the 4 way, the Brock match I remember being a flop but admittedly I haven't seen it in awhile and I don't like Brock then very much. AEW I respect his work and he's one of the greatest mic workers in the world. And I loved his ROH stuff and if it were an indie Hall of Fame he would be a first ballot induction. But in a comparison to Takayama (and even Fujiwara for that matter) we're forced to compare big ROH & TNA shows to men who main evented shows that sold over 40k+ tickets in the Dome and in Takayama's case was literally one of the absolute top stars in his country at his peak. How can I reasonably say Joe should be ranked above people like that as a draw? I'm willing to hear a context-based argument but I just think Tak is a super version of Joe, I just think there's more emotional resonance as Americans towards Joe and his great work especially when it comes to his mic work which I certainly would rank him as a top 5 one and has been for better than half a decade.

I said it on my show, we're all in a standoff on Fujiwara. Everyone's dug their heels in and he's become this lightning rod candidate and I think it enables people to go overboard on whatever side we happen to land on with him. I think the biggest flaw of the anti-Fujiwara folks are you have to ignore the people he had a hand in training to disparage his historical significance which should be universally considered very high, which is similar to Hamada which your very show and Cubs did a great job advocating for and I totally agree with him also being in the HOF for the record. The work level will always be subjective but it's why I can't knock Ishii personally even though he was significantly less of a star and vital to Puroresu history than a Fujiwara & Takayama in the grand scheme. Takayama is interesting because you yourself just wrote an article advocating for Samoa Joe and I feel they're actually somewhat similar candidates and you would be the guy to bring this up to as much as anyone when looking at them directly. Both had a 3 year or so run where they were BITW level in-ring followed by a stark drop in quality. The difference is Joe went 15 years or so either doing stuff that was wholly unimpressive or actively bad. Gerard brought up his run in WWE as being better than I thought and when I asked which great matches he had to make him think that he didn't have any answer, and nobody would. Because there aren't any. Even now, he really needs the right opponent like Darby who is literally one of the best wrestlers alive to get something really memorable. He is one of the best promo guys and was even a great Commentator and that's why he was able to reinvent himself and that's admirable and why he's lasted as well as he has. With Takayama there are multiple instances on tape of him having great performances as late as 2015 and he never dipped below being at least good until the tail end in DDT and was always actively effective in his role. Also even before his peak years he had NO FEAR as a team and Joe didn't have anything on that level before his breakthrough, and in general Takayama has a much deeper tag lineage and versatility both I that team and him and Suzuki which were a main event level act in 2004 and had a decent amount of hidden gems, I actually thought that may be the best and most consistent Minoru Suzuki has ever been was teaming with Takayama. Also different even in their peak runs were Takayama was literally a top 5 star and most famous name in Japan during his time whereas Joe was a top 5 indie name in a huge down period of wrestling overall. The one time he ever has felt like a top top guy in US wrestling overall was the Brock feud which of course they totally fumbled after. Joe did stabilize AEW after the disastrous Cole/MJF run which could be akin to Tak raising business a bit in AJPW after the goofy stuff Muto was doing in 08/09. Also as I mentioned, this isn't an opinion but something that we know is true based on historical precedent all the way up to the aforementioned Brock, which is MMA has ALWAYS counted for the WON which Takayama also has in his back pocket over not just Joe but virtually every candidate in terms of historical significance which we still see parodied to this day 20 years later. And I love Joe BTW and you could argue his run at the top up until around 2008 or so was all time great and he was one of my favorites. But I just think Takayama when compared directly as a similar short peak type of candidate would win out.

I just hate that we're even talking about these active guys. I'm certain a majority of people here would all agree that the Hall would be immediately improved significantly by raising the age minimum to where people could be judged against their contemporary players rather than someone from a totally different generation with way different standards of stardom and drawing circumstances. I mentioned it on the show, for years Hayabusa was talked about as a failed draw because of how things dropped after Onita left or our favorite Fujiwara has been talked down as a draw despite his success through the second half of the 80s. But if you compare them to these new guys put on the ballot they're galaxies ahead. How can Shingo be hailed as a YES on drawing but in the same scene we talk down on Fujiwara? I'm not buying it. And on top of it how we do know how significant historically any modern guy would be because there's no history to see. I think if we were to leave things as they are because Dave thinks it's better to vote for people while they're active that's fine. What about separation of modern and historical candidates for Japan the same way as they do the US? I think that would at least give us a better context for these votes whether we agree or disagree with the votes or not.

Hey everyone, I had my show running down the whole ballot with special focus on Japan, but debates were had on plenty of other candidates as well, just some discussions and thought process and me trying to get Takayama, Fujiwara and Pampero Firpo more of a look. Eastern Lariat Special: 2024 WON Hall of Fame Show (w/Special Guest - HOF Voter Gerard di Trolio)

I think the extreme of it being 30 minutes straight of it also led to some of the worst and most braindead takes on it to make it more than what it was. And even on that note at it's core to do it so long was more or less a publicity stunt (which totally worked to be fair!) at a very very particular moment in time of the empty arena era to do it that long. In front of a crowd we would have seen it much more similar to his other matches, similar to the Taniguchi match you mentioned. They never would have done it for a full 30 in front of a crowd. The sad thing is the actual match was pretty good once they got past the first 30 minutes, and his staring stuff did lead to an epic payoff in the Fujita vs. Sugiura match in which Sugiura didn't "play ball" with the staring stuff. I feel that match should have been Fujita's swan song in NOAH and I think I would have been happy from a story standpoint of him getting put out to pasture. Also hard agree on Fujita vs. Hideki, was an awesome match.

I agree with that and do think he is much better now and they've handled him incredibly well which has helped a lot too. I like to think we can combine to take credit for that after he read our posts.

Totally agree. Conrad was a total goof and definitely should never imagine getting into an on-screen role in wrestling with his acting chops. This week they continued, this time with equally unbelievable Paul, although it was probably better thanks to Jerry Jarrett coming on and talking about how Flair wasn't a draw. I honestly think Jeff was passionate enough that this format could have been somewhat entertaining if he had someone who was a stronger actor and someone who actually knew anything about wrestling history opposing him and probably cut in half time-wise. As it was it just seems like Jeff going crazy against two guys trying not to laugh and just being giddy to be in on an angle. Thank God this nonsense is ending Sunday and we can get back to normal next week.

I feel like there's arguments for both sides but I would probably side with Dave at the end of a pure ballot being for the best, although obviously I disagree with him on the 100% thing. Also I think most people would probably agree with Dave. Even in our own GWE vote how many people had fun, but unrealistic votes at number 100 just to get guys on. I can see that. Like I said, I don't think it's egregious in the HOF lore at all or anything like that, I just wish we were allowed to wait and have perspective than judge in real time which doesn't seem right or used by any other HOF to my knowledge. Inoki is at the top of the mountain all time, no question about that. I don't think he's a bum, but just don't think he's as great as most people. If anything Kidani falling off was the real injustice a million times more than Okada getting in. Without him nobody knows about Okada or any of the other NJPW candidates in the first place and as has been mentioned in this thread, his merchandising abilities are what have taken NJPW to the next level as a business more than a singular performer. Also worth mentioning by most metrics of popularity Naito is actually higher than Okada and has been for most of the 5 years? And I think Okada's a better worker than Naito saying this. I totally get Okada getting into the Hall. I just wish we had some perspective on his career as I feel narratives are much stronger in real time and we've seen that play out before. Sad to know Owen felt that way. The morals clause in wrestling seems like you're asking to be stuck in a neverending wheel of hypocrisy with all the people already in the HOF as is, but I do agree with your statement that it would have flipped things the other way. To me Wrestling II is a HOFer by wrestling status, but the voters not backing him signals that people are trying to clean things up as much as they realistically can.

RE: Okada - I have many friends in Japan in wrestling and those who are outside of wrestling, and I can say in my experience if they aren't in wrestling they have literally 0 clue as to what NJPW is, letalone Okada or any single wrestler. One person knew Saya Kamitani since she was familiar with her idol group. Most people know who Inoki is if I bring him up but nothing in depth about his wrestling. Even in America if I talk to a random 20 something girl they know what WWE is, in Japan NJPW seems to be WAY down the totem pole of real world popularity, and I am not claiming to be an expert on Japanese culture but I think OJ is getting a bit misunderstood here. Okada can't compare to people in the past in terms of popularity for all sorts of reasons. I really don't mind him getting in mind you, but getting more votes than the people he has I can see why that might rub some people the wrong way. I don't understand how anyone could think he is better than Hashimoto who got 15% less than him, and from a star perspective Austin runs about 100 laps around him. I think my problem is even talking about this guy in the HOF in the first place. 35 being the age of getting in is completely absurd. Didn't we learn anything from Nakamura? Someone who got overrated spectacularly at a specific moment in time based on having a few big matches at the right place and time. Nakamura would never get in if he were put on the ballot now. Okada's legacy may very well be this huge thing that lives for 30 years like Hashimoto or Jumbo or whoever, but he could just as easily not deliver and drag his legacy down. Same with all these other guys whose story is half or less empty. That said, this being the WON HOF I think he belongs in the canon of it so much that it's hard to imagine him not getting in. I just feel like it wouldn't hurt to let people have more perspective either.

Okada wrestles the exact same as he always has. That Shingo match and his Ospreay matches could have easily taken place in 2015 down to the beat. And he wrestled them virtually the same. Like all of his other big matches.