GOTNW

Karl Mildenberger is a german boxer. He was the european boxing heavyweight champion and even fought Ali for the title. Hence this being billed as wrestler vs boxer, though the boxing part is more present in how they lay out the match. They both wear boxing gloves and Inoki tries to hang with Mildenberger on the feet. Occassionally he tries leg kicks and takedowns but they get blocked, don't do much damage or the ref makes them stand up. Initially it starts out with a lot of swaying, gauging the distance and the stuff you'd expect from an actual boxing match but as it progressess Mildenberger manages to find openings, first cornering Inoki and making him go on the defensive and then repeteadly knocking him down. At the height of Inoki's puril at the opening of the fourth round MIldenburger rushes him with a flurry, Inoki escapes with a clinch, the ref breaks them up and in the split second Mildenberger takes to complain to the ref Inoki lands a BEAUTIFUL Enzuigiri that knocks him down and quickly follows that up with a Boston Crab and it's all over. Boxing gloves make a lot of submissions virtually impossible, and with the ref not allowing them to spend much time on the ground I doubt one could've come up with a better finish that woud play up to everything that they set up during the match as well. ***1/4

There is nothing Strong Style can evolve into. If anything it is devolving, to the point it doesn't mean anything because it means everything. Everything from Japan is strong style, to the point everything influenced from Japan becomes strong style, and Chris Hero and Tommy End, two very white men having a match in England is deemed "strong style". And then you get to the point everyone influenced by them is working strong style. It reminds me of the issue cubsfan had in there being lucha-inspired promotions in US and Japan that described themselves as lucha libre. Seeing as he'd have to create an entry for pretty much every US and Japan indy wrestler ever his reaction was to simply not create entries for wrestlers who didn't actually work in Mexico. This probably changed now with Lucha Underground, which has financial backing and is heavily tied to AAA, a lucha promotion that is actually from Mexico, and where most of the guys Lucha Underground books probably also worked as well, if nothing else at least as one-offs.

Basially-yes. (though I doubt Hero would even identify as a strong style wrestler since his influences are much more in All Japan/King's Road. unless he went out there and yelled THIS IS STRONG STYLE during the match).

Is Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee strong style? Here's what the J-wiki says about if you're going by what's most visible: "a style of wrestling based on strength (i.e. amateur wrestling and mma influences)" "black shoes black trunks, Inoki and Karl Gotch" " a bunch stuff about Inoki's and New Japan's history" "a passage about shoot style, to which articles in other languages direct to" Yeah. Doesn't quite fit.

It redirects you to a bunch of articles about japanese pro wrestling and New Japan, Shinsuke Nakamura and indeed an MMA gym. When you scroll more you get to indy promotions using it as well as urban dictionary articles. Talk about highly credible sources.

An opinion (about art) can't be wrong, though arguing about them like they are is pretty much what we do in this sub. I only objected to the term being used like it would be on a facebook group for puro newcomers and wreddit, because it's wrong. Google would probably direct me to a shitty wikipedia article that you can't use as a source in any serious academic study and Stipe Miočić's gym so why even bother.

I can start a backyard promotion that will self identify as strong style, that won't make the use of the word any less ridiculous. Also using strong style as freely as that just renders the term meaningless and qualifies like half of non-WWE wrestling to be strong style, as it becomes anything from Japan and anything with japanese influences. There are a lot of words out there for you to describe Chris Hero and Tommy End throwing strikes at each other at an indy show in 2016. You could describe a match as stiff without associating what they are doing with an artificial legacy. go back to /asp

Strong Style is a term used by New Japan marketing. The only vague meaning it has is representing (traditional) New Japan style. Now I haven't seen the match in question, but neither of these two has worked New Japan, and last time I saw them they were still playing thigh slapping kickpunch faux brawlers, and the description doesn't make it sound like it has anything to do with Strong Style.

I didn't say that. I said his understanding of selling doesn't go beyond the surface level. Specifically, selling in a way that makes makes matches great. Brock Lesnar very much understand pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is about conning people into worshipping you and getting paid and he is very successful at both. I'll make a MIS thread about selling and limbwork soon to talk more about this. Who are the great wrestlers? Why are you bringing them up? Are they wrestlers you know I think are great? What does that have to do with anything? Bumping and selling is kinda what pro wrestlers of all sizes do for a job. But Lesnar doesn't really work that way anymore. At least not longer than a minute This just isn't true. It isn't based in reality. It's not how post-return Brock Lesnar works his matches efficiently. There's one exception, and that's it. I'm not claiming that he doesn't have the potential or even knowledge to work that way, but he just doesn't. vs Cena 2012 ER-Lesnar kills him the entire match, Cena hits two moves and wins three matches vs Triple H-this may be Lesnar playing vulnerable monster but the matches weren't acclaimed and killed his heat and aura vs Punk Summerslam 2013-great match, the one exception of Lesnar being as great as you're claiming he is. vs Big Show Royal Rumble 2014-what even was this match? Lesnar got hit by a move, sold it for a bit, then came, then hit a bunch of chairshots and went over in two minutes? vs Undertaker Wrestlemania-a mess vs Cena Summerslam 2014-the infamous squash vs Cena rematch-another dominant Lesnar performance, with Cena getting a little more in but having to basically spam every big move he has to put Lesnar in danger, only for Lesnar to no sell it all after the match vs Reigns Wrestlemania 2015-again, Reigns has to spam every big move he has just like Cena did to put Lesnar in any sort of danger and it still doesn't work then you have the matches versus young talent for whom it was argued just hanging with Lesnar would elevate them. you know........Ambrose, Rollins, Harper, Rusev. didn't happen. Orton match was more Lesnar being super dominant and only selling for finishers and huge stuff So other than the Punk match where are the examples of Lesnar doing that type of vulnerable selling? The triple threat matches where two guys team up on him, spam big moves and then Lesnar comes back from that? The Royal Rumble where Lesnar just killed everyone in his way? Or is the best example other than the Punk match him selling for Undertaker because Undertaker was actually presented as being on his level? Maybe he doesn't want to *really* sell for anyone that's not presented as a WWE canon legend, but that doesn't mean I'm not free to critique him for his work.

Brock is definitely a very good bumper and even quite good at selling but his understanding of it doesn't go beyond the surface level, and for the type of role they've casted him for it's a grave fault. There's a world of difference between being able to sell in the moment and sell the opponent and yourself to the crowd while winning (sometimes dominantly) like 90s Jumbo or Hashimoto could do. That's not something Lesnar is capable of and why a simple match structure like this plays much better to his strengths. If all you need is a minute of quality direct "I'm hurt from a move I was just hit with" selling to think someone is a top ten talent ever....

This was fun, a very dominating performance from Satomura with a simple structure and longer control segments, just the way I like it. Satomura took the early portion of the match, working simple holds, not the best she's ever done it but it served a purpose in the layout. Then they did some back and forth, Yoshiko's offence is appropriate for her look, rough strikes, lariats and a great senton. The match goes into another gear when Satomura starts brutally kicking Yoshiko, just dismantling her. Yoshiko gets one comeback in before Satomura goes back on offence, I absolutely loved how she no sold Yoshiko's stupid Codebreaker and just kicked her in the head straight away and then finished her off when she tried to no-sell her. And a pass out finish is always cool. ***1/2

You can tell by their entrances-how they move, how they look, by their entrance music. You can tell that Shibata is a real wrestler and Go Shiozaki isn't. Shibata represents something-he likes Inoki and Maeda. His favourite wrestler is Hashimoto. That's whose bags he carried. Black shoes, black trunks, has a simple font that says THE WRESTLER for a t-shirt. Go Shiozaki probably only still wrestles because his modelling deal fell through and he needs the cash. These two are modern japanese wrestlers-they will have a modern japanese wrestling match. It probably won't be as good as Hashimoto vs Tenryu and since it's 2016 neither will the heat. But it still managed the work because of the symbolism. Shiozaki's control segments are ok-he does stuff and it looks good. But it doesn't really leave an impression on you while he's doing it most of the time. It's kind of like a headlock in an NWA title match-what happens after matters more for the quality of the match. Shibata gets in his face, trolls him, and it works. He brualizes him, viciously beats the shit out of him with kicks, elbows and uppercuts. There's a control segment early on that's long (for 2016 standards) where Shiozaki is throwing Shibata into the guardrail, trying to convey anger and rampage, but it really doesn't come off that well. And Shibata cuts him off by just kicking him in the head and doing everything Shiozaki did except making it look like Shiozaki would've if he was a great wrestler. You don't think "Go Shiozaki could be a great wrestler" during that control segment or when he's hitting stupid indy moves-you think that when he's desperately chopping Shibata with full force as his only means of comebacks. It doesn't feel like he's angry with Shibata as much as himself for not being as good as he should be. And that's why it left such a strong impression on me. Through the suplex no-sell sequences and the counters I could tell were coming, it felt like Shibata taking a big shit on Go Shiozaki and everything he represents. When Shiozaki would try the Limit Break, a move that was supposed to be his big match finisher (akin to the Bruning Hammer) but failed through like most things in his career, that doesn't look nearly as cool and is too contrived for his own good, Shibata countered it by just kneeing him in the head. And hitting a Sleeper Suplex, Kobashi's move, before finishing Shiozaki off as well as telling him to get the hell out of his ring once the match was over really sent the message across. ****

Yeah this ruled. Early matwork was super neat, like some sort of weird pastiche of shoot style and lucha title match matwork. I was never sold on O'Reilly due to him being a Davey Richards protege and working more like junior than a proper UWFi cosplay guy but he has improved, and for a workrate match with little backstory this was exceptional. Shibata always brings his stubborness as something that is going to be played up in the match, and the kind of spots like suplex no selling and him daring the other guy to hit him as hard as he can are gonna be there, but this was shooty enough that it didn't matter even in this type of match. It's been a while since I've been so lost in just plain enjoying in wrestling that I didn't really think much of critically breaking down why it works or not for me. Shibata's short irish whip Fight Kick (that's what kenka means. IDK how it turned into a yakuza kick.) Props to O'Reilly for really keeping up with Shibata here too, stuff like his hammerlock knee drop is something I'd expect to see in a Satomura match. "This is what New Japan wrestling is!" said the New Japan shillman announcer. I wish. O'Reilly's mouthguard falling out of his mouth for the ref stop finish was as great of a visual as you get to see in fake fighting. ***3/4

Big portions of this match were built around Bobby Fish dominating and working over Shibata's neck and back, I remember there was a story circulating weeks before this match that Shibata has a neck injury and decided to work through it, and even if that was true the way they structued this match didn't really take advantage of it, Shibata took a bunch of bumps for Fish who was almost Brock Lesnar working a house show-like in how meaningless and mundane he made them. There were some quality exchanges once they moved past that, and you can always count for Shibata for some nice violence, but this felt like a missed opportunity. Also Fish's vocal selling sounded childish and annoying. **3/4

Koko took had the standard Memphis shine with a couple of armdrags and a Dropkick. He tagged in Hutchinson who was soon cut off by Buddy Wayne while bouncing off the ropes and was then easily disposed off. Hutchinson and Ken Wayne's stuff looked fine but continue being very impressed with Buddy Wayne, just an old fat dude that will beat the shit out of people with punches and knees, kinda like the 1979 Memphis Takayama. Fun little tag.

I'm pretty sure it was originally named Sliding then got shortened due to it being easier to pronounce, how that correlates to actual blade names is not something I ever thought about though it going full circle from an incorrect wasei sounds fun

This ruled. The atmosphere was great with the crowd being red hot for Goldberg and chanting for him even before the match started, making it feel every bit as special as they'd hyped it up to be. The match was executed pretty much flawlessly-Goldberg shrugging off Lesnar's shove was a magical moment, and the big transition was as picture perfect as it gets. You just can't time Spears any better than Goldberg did here. It's impossibly. Usually you get at least a second or two for a wrestler to get in position and either stand there and eat a move or set up a counter but here Goldberg just took Lesnar down right away and it looked amazing. I don't feel comfortable slapping a star rating on it straight away, but I'm thinking it's probably better than the Lesnar/Orton match. Maybe giving ***1/2 or 7/10 to a minute and a half match with five moves sounds insane to some, but I feel like this absolutely warrants it. edit: after thinking about it more and a rewatch or two I'd say the staying power of it is closer to ***1/4 so that is my grade now.

Nia Jax is great and everyone who disagrees with that is a sexist pig

What better way to kill time than to watch Inoki fight a Georgian Judo olympic champion? The match mostly consisted of Chochishvili slamming Inoki-and you'll be shocked to find an olympic judo champion has good looking slams. Inoki's comebacks looked goofy as Chochishvili didn't really know how to react to strikes and kicks, but he's charismatic enough that it almost doesn't matter, at least in terms of getting the match over. A one handed Inoki firing up was quite the visual, tailor made for a magazine cover. **3/4

Bigelow is a guy whose matches I have definitely watched in the past that I have absolutely no opinion or one way or the other, this wasn't a very good showcase for him. Early shine with Inoki punking Bigelow was fun but Bigelow's control segments did very little for me, mediocre strikes, slams and clotheslines as well as faux-athletic big guy moves that don't look good and serve no purpose, Inoki might as well have been facing Kane. Inoki's comeback attempts and comeback were totally badass though, you have him going fiercely going after Bigelow by throwing great punches, raking his eye and dragging him in the ring over the ropes with a Choke Sleeper which looked absolutely brutal. Inoki chokes Bigelow out but Bigelow has his foot on the ropes and they have Bigelow sell forever before getting up and throwing a tantrum at ringside. **3/4

At this point Vader has figured out some of the stuff that would later become his trademarks like the clubbing blows and the body tackles/attacks/how do you even call those things? Wiki has running body block but that's not something I've ever heard used in real life. But he also does goofy headbutts that aren't really fitting for his gimmick. What's interesting about this match is just how far Inoki goes in putting Vader over. Vader takes control of the ring positioning making Inoki retreat to corners. When Inoki throws some of his punches/slaps he usually uses to surprise his opponents early on and throw them off their game Vader easily shrugs them off. When Vader throws hands Inoki goes down. Inoki's only real moments of shine come after a sweeping leg kick (and Vader's bump made it look amazing and reminds you of what he would eventually become) and a missed shoulder tackle. The shoulder tackle Vader managed to hit Inoki sold for the remainder of the match. They did a ref bump that actually managed to look realistic enough-Vader picked up Inoki for a Bodyslam and while up in the air Inoki hit the referee in the face with his feet. After the missed tackle Inoki got in a couple of Enzuigiris and locked in the Octopus Hold only to have Vader counter by just slamming him on the ground which looked great. Vader managed to both get a visual pin in and take out Inoki after the match. The closest Inoki got to a payback or a comeback after that getting up and going after Vader while Vader was almost already backstage, and even then he quickly went back to selling the ribs. Not nearly as interesting as an Inoki/Andre match, and Vader's control segments lacked the violence and the intelligence of an Andre to positon himself as this giant threat that would have made this structure work. Inoki's burning fighting spirit however remains unbroken. Also Choshu interfered and hit Vader with a Lariat which Vader quickly got up from. There really isn't much difference in how they're putting Vader over here and how Undertaker and Kane were put over ten years later. Both worked too. ***

You can take all the workrate wrestling of the world, I'd much rather observe Inoki working a worked shoot in Pakistan. It's no wonder he conned people into thinking some of his fights were real. This match had a lot of "lock ups", but they were more reminiscent of judo lock-ups than pro wrestling lock ups. Basically instead of just conventionally locking up and pushing at each other they were grabbing each other's arm and neck and trying to find an opening and use it to execute a slam or a takedown, so when something actually happened (whether it one wrestler taking another's back or securing a dominant position) it came off as a big deal. The Armbar spot in the first one was a little weird at first as I'm the biggest fan of using armbars like a headlock (especially in a match like this) but Inoki on commentary explained it masterfully when commentating the finish saying the same thing happened in the first round. The finish was Inoki hooking Pahalwan in a Double Wristlock and him refusing to give up, and Pahalwan's Armbar escape was good enough that all was well in the end. ***

Please don't respond to this by answering "I like 1993 All Japan it's so great". That's for a different discussion. Surely there must be a thread for your favourite promotion/style/era or however we'd define that. Basically, if you were to build a style from the ground up in a way you think would most efficiently use everything that makes wrestling exciting and cut out everything that allows workers to enter black holes of cliches and stupidity. Just bringing up some ideas that haven't been used often or altogether is more than enough for starters. I'm not going to pull a Parv and turn this thread into a case for why shoot style is the best, instead just mention a couple of ideas I've had. Maybe rolling has something to do with it but recently I came to conclusion that one of the most underused aspects of wrestlings are pins themselves. Because more choreographed styles use them in a certain way and (quasi& proper) shoot style got rid of them altogether (and when they used them they were limited to just counting pins after bridging suplexes) I'm not sure there's ever been a style in which wrestlers used realistic fighting for positioning, control etc. to try and just *pin* their opponent. And kicking out would leave the defending wrestler open for easier submissions, guard passes and so on.

Maybe it'd be a good idea to not touch /pol on pro wrestling only....

First fall had some shine, and Lawler and Dundee cleaning house with punches is as fun as you'd expect, but was mostly Freebirds double teaming before getting the pin. Loved Lawler's face stomp that almost broke the pin, it looked brutal. Second fall had more Freebirds working over Dundee, constantly working, lots of punches, gut kicks, knee drops and elbow drops, all of them nice and snug. The comeback was great, though it does stick out how bad Lawler's downward punches after a Snapmare look when everything else he does looks so great. Third fall has some nice back and forth action, I loved the spot where Dundee cornered, urgh, one of the Freebirds and he tried to run away from Dundee by running the ropes as well as the Freebirds buying time by going out of the ring. What really puts it over the top is the amazing post-match brawl, things completely disintegrate, no one can do chaotic brawls quite like Memphis. It's not just that the action is great and they find natural and logical ways of working something like a chairshot in in a way that it would be used in a fight, the production and the time running out also add genuineness to the whole thing. ***1/2