GOTNW

I watch shoot style and MMA with a different brain basically. I am an MMA fan but I am as casual about it as it gets (I'll go to live shows like the UFC one that was just here a couple of weeks ago but don't really care to watch it on my monitor unless it's stuff like Pancrase, PRIDE and RIZIN which have a much "pro-wrestlinger" feel to them). Also I have a feeling people underestimate how many pro wresling moves can be done in a real fight. We've seen folks do Powerbombs, Gotch Style Piledrivers etc. and that's all without the huge weight differences we get in pro wrestling matches. And comparing shoot style matches from twenty five years ago to real fights in 2016 is just stupid.

Really? How? That seems like a huge stretch of reasoning given that he hasn't worked Kurt in 13 years. He worked him in IGF in 2007 but w/e. I think it's pretty obvious how it influenced him and his current gimmick. How is Lesnar doing a million suplexes and finishers different than Angle doing so?

Lesnar benefits from several things:1)WWE 2)recency bias 3)uniqueness I didn't rank him. The long term damage of having him work versus Angle is showing now.

Owen is someone I almost talked myself out of voting for. Even after dropping 20 spots from his Smakrshoice ranking he still feels too high and that's with me not ranking so many wrestlers other people hold in high esteem. I wonder if the 2016 rankings will be as alienating in 2026 as the 2006 are right now.

Is he on twitter? I'm not going to Russia. Sadly, no. I sought him out to share Dave's deep dive on his career and he isn't out there. Although maybe he's reading this right now because days after we posted the videos started getting copyright claims and it's a wasteland of Volk on YouTube now in comparison. Volk Han has a twitter. Ask Lord Mo to hook you up (that's his twitter handle and he was the other #1 Han voter).

If you think about it Tamura's ranking makes perfect sense. PWO is the place where wrestling is mostly compared to boring pop rock. Tamura is Beethoven.

I think the reason Han will finish higher is that he will have more top 10/5 votes and at least one #1 vote. I know it's frustrating that Tamura ranked where he did but we have to look on the bright side as well. Choshu was #100 in 2006. Fujinami was #58. Jim Breaks, Yuki Ishikawa and Fujiwara weren't even ranked. One step forward, one step back...

I disagree woth pretty much every single thing you said. I'm well aware of the Togo C+A. I don't see the standouts before his revival. My first thought was that Togo's top three 2000s matches are probably better than Ohtani's but I'm not really sure I would put the Honda and Himaru Sato matches over Ohtani's vs Murakami. While Togo certainly knew how to build a match I often find opening portions of his matches too basic to be engaging. Togo's real strength is that his top ten singles matches from 2000s easily beat Ohtani's, but again that is pretty much all 2010-2011 stuff. I've already made the case for Ohtani's versatility in his thread: " Ohtani vs rookies and undercard wrestlers rules. Ohtani as an invader rules. Ohtani defending his home turf rules. Ohtani in big brawls rules. Ohtani in faux deathmatches rules. Ohtani in inexplicably great fatal four aways I had no idea existed rules." You can add working junior epics, junior sprints and vs. UWFi guys to that as well. I don't really see that with Togo but I'll gladly listen if someone tries to convince me. What I would absolutely give credit for is getting great results out of unimpressive opponents, but that's also a point in Ohtani's favour. As of right now Togo seems like a beneficiary of the effect of latent greatness where a guy like Low Ki will do nothing for three years and then pop up in a couple of great matches and the inbetween time isn't really focused on. Togo wasn't an unknown name, so my guess is that if he was as good as he was in his last run the likes of Ditch would have been pimping him harder before it. From everything I've seen Togo absolutely was good at every point in his career but rigt now I do not buy he had a sustained run of greatness.

I'd like to see that case especially after all the casual dismissal of other people's picks you've done.

I don't like Togo's 90s junior stuff nearly as much as Ohtani's. Togo's 2010/2011 run was great but what was he doing for 10 years before that? I don't see a lot of talk about Togo's 2005 DDT title matches and such. Virus seems like a much better comparison with having two great runs and Virus' second run has a lot more stuff than Togo's and has gone on for much longer.

I've said it before but the best way to make Reigns cheered is for him to insult everyone who boos him.

Wrestlers like Ishikawa are a big reason why I'd like to see breakdowns, can't imagine he isn't at least top 50 among people who considered Bati-Bati. A brilliant talent.

Glad Dick Togo's placement improved. I imagine he would have done even better if this had been done just after his faux retirement. I couldn't rank him very high because I'm not sure how much substance there is between his two great runs but I'll try to fill those gaps in the next ten years. He was a special talent.

Things have changed since 2006. The 2016 list is going to have drastically less japanese women, possibly less japanese wrestlers overall as well. Hase hasn't been a full time wrestler since, what, 1995/1996? Combine that with his run not being that long in the first place (I'd say it properly starts around 88 though I'm sure some would argue even later) and him not being a top level guy and I'm not really surprised. I'm sure Jericho got plenty of votes around PWO regulars-they just didn't do much to defend him.

Seems like him trying to leverage a better deal. Anyway whether it's Dana or Vince he isn't worth what he's asking. On a personal note I can't stand the guy.

I honestly have no idea why Hase was brought up and what he has to do with Jericho.

I love Atlantis. I had him #28. His peak 80s and 90s stuff, the great apuestas matches he's had in recent years and his awesome rudo run in the mid 2000s were enough to earn him a high placement. Has some of my all time favourite lucha matches vs. El Satanico from 1984, the Blue Panther title matches from 1991 and 1997 (I would have to rewatch this one but I would have it pegged as a strong contender for best title match ever), the VIllano 3 apuestas match has been discussed plenty, the Kung Fu (no one loves this much as much as I do but screw it, it's an amazing shitkicking and Atlantis is an underrated brawler), Silver Fox,La Sombra Ultimo Guerrero apuestas matches...it's quite the resume. Last year CMLL did a Negro Casas/Shocker vs. Atlantis/Blue Panther tag match that was grapplefuck at its finest and I couldn't believe how great everyone looked in it.

What i find equally interesting is that he produced plenty of good work (and his best work naturally) when he was more restricted and more focused on playing a specific character than having great matches because he doesn't have the skillset to execute his vision of great wrestling. In the end he didn't really change that much from the kid who stole Ultimo Dragon spots. His career is probably the ultimate validation of Matt D's approach to reviewing wrestling.

I'll briefly comment on Jericho's pro wrestling philosophy with a particular example I'm sure many will remember. In either 2013/2014, maybe it was 2015, I don't know, it doesn't matter, Jericho turned babyface and changed his offence accordingly. This included use of old man Diving Crossbodies and such, and also and addition of a Diving Double Axe Handle. The aforemention move looked bad, got no heat and served no purpose-at first glance. I do believe there was a purpose. Jericho concluded that run by feuding with Randy Orton-and in their match at Summerslam Orton counter the Diving Double Axe Handle into an RKO. It was a terrible counter spot with a poor set-up that everyone saw coming (though angry dad Jericho argued otherwise). I fully believe Jericho had a match against Orton and that counter in mind when he started using that move. A lot of wrestlers do counter spots where they go for moves they usually don't or go for moves they usually use but don't use them in the manner they do when they actually hit them so you can see the counter coming. Jericho's reaction to this was adding a shitty move to his move-set that harmed his matches for months and didn't fulfill its final purpose. It shows a level of thinking about his matches a lot of wrestlers might not have but also his inability to come to effective solutions. He does have a lot of interesting ideas. I'm sure he'd make a great match writer for an E-fed or help out with the Smackdown vs Raw games. But as an actual wrestler he just doesn't cut it for me and the more wrestling you watch the more frustrating a lot of his work becomes.

Folks bitch about SO MANY other wrestlers. Yet. Jericho has yet to drop.

Sorry to disappoint some of you but a wrestler can either be great or terrible. No middle ground is allowed but you can jump from one opinion to the other as much as you want.

UWF II is the peak of wrestling but there are plenty of other promotions/promotional runs I'd take over All Japan as well. If the question was specifically about a lengthy run then 90s All Japan might just take it. Surely there have already been threads discussing that very issue?

More songs about Ohtani: We've seen a lot of discussion about peak vs. longevity, consistency, input vs. output etc. over the course of the last year and a half and all the GWE discussion that came along with the project. What I find fascinating about Ohtani is that offers everything yet changes drastically as a worker. He *gets it* almost instantly and his highly touted junior matches are what people first bring up with him. And, as great as they are, what I find equally as impressive with him is how he would work 4 minute Super J Cup matches and matches vs UWFi workers. The way he build matches vs. Mochizuki and Super Delfin blew me away, they had the same feel of epics that lasted five times longer and an unparalleled sense of urgency. I think I've watched his match vs. Kenichi Yamamoto like three times and I almost never rewatch matches. I also enjoyed the few matches he had in WCW for whatever that's worth. I might just like his heavyweight run even more. I don't know whether many would agree with I would put the Murakami matches up there with anything he's ever done, and even if he is lacking in "great matches" I don't see it as an issue whatsoever. I'm not Matt D in that how many roles a wrestler can work in and such is what I first think about when judging someone but Ohtani is so great at it it's undeniable. That he could get great matches out of Sekimoto while having clear goals to accomplish in them with establishing Sekimoto is much more impressive to me than having great matches where the end goal is just to have a great match. I'm an absolute sucker for his acting and goofy facial expressions. By all acounts they shouldn't work. But they do. His ability to connect with the crowd and form an almost intimate relationship with the viewer is a big reason why he can have something like the match vs. Minoru Tanaka from last December and also why ZERO-1 still exists honestly. His act is a perfect fit for smaller arenas but can translate well to bigger arenas as well whenever he shows up in NOAH/All Japan/New Japan etc. He'll do stuff like start an Ohtani chant himself, and if it was someone else it could come off almost laughable and definitely as trying too hard-but it works with him. He has fun shtick like the Facewash, can work in any environment and adapt on the spot. It's fitting his catchphrase is "believe"-both because his entrances will sometimes have cool touches like him closing his eyes for a bit when his theme song starts playing or praying before a match-and because there is very tangible belief fans have in him that has allowed him to the work he has in the last 15 years. For my money he has almost 25 years of great work.

Sorry Matt but I have to repeat you accomplished absolutely nothing. Taue's been a highly pimped wrestler for decades. A breakthrough would be if someone ranked him #1 or ranked him top ten without ranking any other All Japan guys or something like that. What you'll get in most lists is Taue ranking anywhere from top ten to top half behind at least one other 90s All Japan guy.