GOTNW

Sure, but you made ten points. I highlighted three. When you look at those three points more closely do you not see where I'm coming from? I found some of your other points quite interesting. I am sure WIll or someone else could bring up 25 things they think Lawler's punches accomplish. My point is, even if we strip them down and we're left with, say, 5:7, if one accomplishes those five things better than the other accomplishes his seven things that's a perfectly valid reason to go with the first one. And I have no idea which ratio we'd end up with and in whose favour would it be.

I was hoping someone from Lawler's side would step up but that has yet to happen. I chose him specifically because there is somewhat of a divide between those who see him as #1 and those who see Flair as #1, whille, say, Terry Funk is loved in both groups so inserting someone like him or Hansen or whomever wouldn't be quite the same, and I I don't think their work is categorized by a single strike like Lawler's is. To me the big problem with Flair's chops is that they just don't look that good. I can't really buy into the "Flair=best chopper" narrative, especially when the first thing you did in the previous thread was move the discussion towards "workers who happened to use a chop" and your arguments that followed are some I'm sure you have/would use when talking about him as a worked in general. I wouldn't see it as much different if someone wrote out all the things Randy Orton's punch accomplishes in a match (though that would be more of an argument for what it accomplishes in modern WWE style, but, he's just an example). Sure, but the means he uses just aren't that good. I also think you're obviously overreaching by saying stuff like this: asking people to buy into your own interpretations of Flair matches. And hey-maybe some will. But it's a lot less tangible than some of the other points you brought up.

It's not like he doesn't do literally anything else, why would Lawler switch to a different strike if his punch works? Plus it's not like Lawler is famous for wrestling 50 minute broadways. Most Lawler fans just like his punches enough that it's not an issue.

Lawler will bloody up his opponent with them and win a lot, not sure what else they're supposed to do.

I had him #30 and watched stuff of his from as late as 2009. Other than the two aforementioned hair matches he's also got the Satanico hair match from 1989, and I think all them are top ten apuestas matches for me. I watched every random tag I could find via dataincash etc. I loved his 1992 match vs Perro as well even it is a drop off from the 1986 one. He's got the Villano 3 match as well, and we have some footage of a match vs. Faraon (a part one on youtube and highlights Rah upped). He's got the Ringo Mendoza match as well. I tried to not let scarcity affect my judgment one way or the other but from what we have I no problem calling him the best lucha brawler ever. Seems like a guy that would almost certainly be in my top ten even if there was just a little bit more but I tried to stay reasonable with his ranking. I still remember watching a random trios and the camera following him as he walked his entrance from the backstage area to the ring and it was one of the most powerful things I ever saw. He had a special presence. Him making a comeback in the trios that took place a week after the MS-1 hair match is as loud as I've ever heard a crowd. And I honestly believe the MS-1 hair match reached a higher level of wrestling. There are moments in that match where they're both selling exhaustion yet continue to go for pins as often as possible and somehow *everything* turns into a viable nearfall. And then there's the greatest post-match ever. If you're gonna judge someone on two matches (again-I didn't) they better be as great as those two.

Have you seen his hour draw with Valentine?No, should I?

Nice to see Gordi's still going strong, hope all's good man Don West is the one guy, more than anyone, I wanted WWE to steal. His enthusiasm is just something else.

This is the debate I want to see. Fuck it, we know both guys are going to finish super high in GWE, more nitpicking will ensue, we might as well get it out of the way. Work your magic old men of PWO.

Should have also stated Kobashi essentially squashing Omori by chopping him a bunch in a 8 minute match is one of the most surreal things I have ever seen. That he could project so much violence through such a strike is almost perplexing. That match felt like a horror movie. Tenryu is another great chopper who deserves a write up. I love how he would trap someone in the corner and just onload on them with the greatest strike combination in wrestling history but he was also amazing at firing back when someone would trap him in a corner. He'd just come out of nowhere with this huge onslaught and it could both continue into a big comeback or get humongous heat after a quick cut-off. There are also instances-whether it be against shooters or someone he really hates from New Japan-that he'd chop someone in the throat. But he wouldn't just throw it out there, he'd build the match and right as the sheer angst and hate reached its climax throw them as the ultimate insult. And yeah he could use them as a fiery babyface as well but whatever. Also has such a great sense of timing that he could build matches very good matches around them when he was 60 and could barely walk.

pol I swear... Fine. I'll try to build a narrative as well. Kobashi managed to build entire 20+ minute matches around his chops when he was broken down. His chopping act was so perfected you could put him in there against anyone, a junior, an outclassed heavyweight or a rival in a GHC Heavyweight Title match and it would work. The weapon he once used to fight back against evil foreigners and those who outranked him grew with him and transformed into a means of keeping his challengers down. As he grew not only did the strenth of the chop but so did the amount of variations and ways he could use them. He could engage in epic battles like he did against Sasaki or use them as punishment (the Kesagiri variations especially helped here, as the image of Kobashi chopping down someone's neck remains entrenched in one's mind). He even managed to build a signature fanservice spot around them with him chopping his opponent a million times in the corner. Not only did his reliance on a single move not have a negative effect on his perception. he was almost solely relied on to be NOAH's top draw and did that to both great business and acclaim (his smarkshoice #5 rating was just after it). His retirement match was one of the most fascinating and emotional experiences I've ever had watching wrestling (but don't believe me-the camera zooms in on a crying kid during a Kobashi FIP section so you see it nice and clear) and 90% of it was just chops. I'd like to see Flair get as much out of a single move as Kobashi did but unfortunately post-prime Flair is categorized by people who voted him in their top ten (or in Loss' case, #1) discussing whether he was mentally ill or not.

Love how this thread has turned into ranking "chopping workers" as just another way to circle jerk about Flair.

Literally go watch a random Tenryu interpromotional match mate.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Backlund in New Japan/UWF/Battlarts and I remember digging him in the 90s WWF stuff as well so I watched some 70s/80s WW(W?)F stuff of his to see how he was there and it didn't do anything for me and thus didn't feel compelled to rank him. If his home promotion's style was closer to what I value in wrestling I'm almost certain he would be on my list.

Speak for yourself, I loved the Shibata match and enjoyed the Goto matches (with Goto being my least favourite wrestler of all time). If anything I find it people severely overrate his big matches as all time classics-not that they're not great, but clearly a level or two below that. He's been an amazing big match performer for 6-7 years now, that's more than enough and I got my money's worth any time he was in a non-squash singles match (your average New Japan Cup/G1 match). Sure, Nakamura doesn't bring much to house show tags, but neither does Tanahashi. Anyway I'll end this before it turns into a gigantic rant of why Okada sucks.

Raw has been pretty good so far from what I've caught, anyone else watching it through, ahem.....unconventional means?

I'm surprised by how many top 20/30 votes Ikeda got, explains how he made it. I'm honestly more interested in the breakdowns if Grimmas is willing to do them, would be super interesting to see how results vary depending on how many styles people considered.

Voting LA Park #4 has to be the most DEAN thing ever.

Yeah Otsuka would be Parv's best bet as far as Battlarts goes probably. Might be the GOAT suplex thrower. Here is a another pic of Ikeda's dog to make the quasi shoot style voters feel good for having superior taste:

I still mantain the 1989 Masakatsu Funaki-Tatsuo Nakano match is your best bet for shoot style. Yes, it's in UWF, no it doesn't matter. All time great brawl with all time great heat, a classic underdog story and submissions as epic nearfalls instead of being the body of the match.

I've touched on this already, but I though of it just recently-and Hashimoto really was an amazing staller. A lot of times stalling is there just for its own cause, and its amusing for what it is but the way Hashimoto used it was just brilliant. He'd have these amazing epic giant staredowns with small movements that were like a pastiche of two boxers looking for an opening and a long awaited confrontation between the protagonist and the antagonist in an action movie. You could feel the crowd coming alive, and it would intensify and just as it would reach its climax and your suspense would be at maximum but before it reached overkill he'd explode and that right there is peak wrestling to me.

My 2026 case for Ikeda: God-I forgot one of Jetlag's accounts was still alive. Everyone watch this now and feel shitty for not ranking El Dandy in your top 15 like I did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXeWJ3Semqs

Battlarts and Futen are very much hybrid shoot style promotions. Shoot style is their base but they incorporate pro style moves in more realistic ways. Ikeda specifically is known for being probably the stiffest worker ever.

Ikeda making 45 ballots is amazing. Really glad he made the final list. I wonder where Ishikawa will place since pretty much everyone rates him higher than Ikeda and gaps in their ranking are often huge.

The results are out there. We cross posted them on many other boards once we finished it. http://www.puroresufan.com/discuss/showthread.php?tid=2569 Maybe wayback machine preserved some of the discussion. I should ask Daniel what the hell happened to the board.

Ditto. No use for his 90s junior stuff, only really liked him opposite Regal and Finlay.