GOTNW

The list is fine for what it is but I do think it is telling that even with all the talk about how much better lucha was going to do etc. the highest ranked luchador on this list did worse than the highest ranked luchador on the 2006 one. I mean I'm sure Grimmas realises how grateful everyone is how his efforts by the amount of thanks and compliments he's gotten for putting it all together. It's certainly a good thing for PWO as a community. I just don't see these assholes shitting on someone's journey. Frankly, if someone is insecure about their opinions, that's their own problem. PWO is the last place where anyone is going to be judged. They'll encounter a lot of fierce debate for sure, but that's kind of the entire point-Dylan writing this huge essay and you telling him he's a fucking mark that doesn't know shit about wrestling and that Mochizuki is a better worker than Jimmy Rave. Even if the results haven't gone the way many of us had hoped they would (and they may never will probably) I do think it was a big step forward for pro wrestling critique for whatever that's worth. That there isn't anyone who made all ballots. That the flaws of every worker, no matter how beloved they might be, were acknowledged. And so on.

I have no idea what you're talking about. If people commented on stuff and then someone PMed them about how their opinions suck and then they PMd you how their feelings were hurt, well, what the hell is even going on really.

Who what when where. Still waiting for an answer here.

Who what when where.

The problem with "everyone should participate" seems pretty clear to me. Here at PWO we have hardcore scrutiniy and also a call for everyone to participate no matter how much they've watched. No list is going to make everyone happy, but one with such a pastiche especially won't. And really-where do we draw the line? If we had another 1000 people contributing it would have looked like something from wrestlingforum. 49 people voted in 2006. We had 151 voters. Negro Casas made 108 ballots. Jim Breaks made 67. It could have looked different.

The 2006 list is almost completely irrelevant. It feels obsolete and is completely alien to everyone who wasn't around then. I don't think this list will look much different in ten years.

My podcast with Tim. By the way, that was just the hardest reveal I had to do yet. The 4 people who considered lucha and did not vote for Casas are insane He said solid He set up an Asai Moonsault well, fifth best wrestler of all time.

Casas's rating confirms this list isn't really any better than the 2006 one. It just has a different bias that kind of validates all the shit I talked about it before.

Is anyone actually arguing you need to watch full shows to get the context of particular matches? That just seems silly. Anyway I strongly prefer matches because I'm just past the point of watching stuff that doesn't interest me.

A fair placing for Hash and it's very telling he actually moved up despite the change in the type of wrestling that dominates the top 50 from 2006 to 2016. He will always be too low for me but oh well.

I remember Taue-Nagata being used as an example of a carry job. That seems pretty harsh in hindsight, even if it was largely Taue inserting Nagata into his big match formula. Still that a guy like Nagata is the caliber of talent Taue was given that much credit for having a great match against is telling. Of course Akiyama did well against Nagata as well, producing three strong singles matches.

I don't care how much shit I have to eat for this Marufuji was really good in 2006. He had neat matches vs. Akiyama, Kobashi, KENTA and Misawa in that year as well and had had pimped stuff for years by that point. Not convinced Taue was better than Akitoshi Saito at working against Marufuji.Akiyama also had like three other really good matches vs. Marufuji as well fwiw

I don't care how much shit I have to eat for this Marufuji was really good in 2006. He had neat matches vs. Akiyama, Kobashi, KENTA and Misawa in that year as well and had had pimped stuff for years by that point. Not convinced Taue was better than Akitoshi Saito at working against Marufuji.

A point I broughr up earlier is that Akiyama has plenty of great tag matches with not so strong coworkers. I don't buy it for a second Taue could have the matches Akiyama did working with Omori/Miyahara/Shiozaki, Suwama/Doering/Shiozaki, Shiozaki/Omori/Manabu Soya etc.

I think what irks me the most about Akiyama is that he posseses such a wide array of skills and can just do so many different things that Taue just can't. And again....you like Taue better, fine. You like his big match formula, he's in the best matches for you....I get it. What's frusrating to me is that Akiyama really is a Matt D candidate where you have to get the whole picture to fully appreciate it and I almost insany doubt whethet someone's done the legwork. In terms of structuring matches, delivering nuanced performances, carrying lesser talent etc. I think Akiyama is in another level.

I mean I can *see* an argument for Taue, I just obviously don't agree with it. And I see that argument as being heavily skewed to highlight the things he excelled that. If you do the same in Akiyama's favour it's a no contest. Sure, you could argue Kawada-Taue was the greatest tag ever. And the reasoning for that is that 90s All Japan had the best tag team wrestking ever and they were together for the longest. I don't even think that's a very important point here, as the discussion is about Taue specifically and not Holy Demon Army. I could point to at least three different tag teams with Akiyama in them I thought were legitimately great tag teams where he was often the best performer. I don't really buy Taue being a.better tag team wrestler than Akiyama. Again you would have to ignore consistency and heavily favour peak and even then I'm not so sure I'd agree with it. Taue peaked at a time when better wrestlers than the one Akiyama worked alongside in his prime peaked. And EVEN THEN I'm not convinced. Akiyama is in the tag picture from 1996 onwards. Taue is good from 1990 but achieves greatness in 1995. Taue still has great stuff in 2006-true-but it is more sporadic and can't even begin to compare to what Akiyama was doing at the same time. For Taue the window of good wrestling can be 1990-2006 but in that you have both the question of how good he was before 1995 and how consistent his output was in NOAH. Akiyama's window of good wrestling is 1992-now. He has a small slump around 2008-2009 or so but compared to Taue I'm not sure it's even worth mentioning. You could argue Akiyama was in a top 5 All Japan 90s match as well. I know Akiyama-Kobashi 98 is my #1 and Akiyama-Misawa 2/27 would be a strong contender as well (pre-split counts). I mean you can always make a case for wrestler x over wrestler y but for people that truly dive into the stuff and appreciate them both (hint-I do) I don't think it's close.

I don't really see an argument for Taue over Akiyama for people that know both their careers well and *get* them.

Mainstream japanese bias is preventing Akiyama from being higher. People remember him as the sixth best guy from All Japan when he was three years into his career and rank him based on that when the bulk of his case is working on NOAH house shows and now in front of 100 people that Meltzer and the hip kids don't pay much attention to.

I see it as a matter of the value of modern puro that isn't hip and the nature of the way we watch wrestling as well. I've seen all the pimped Akiyama matches that have been lost to time and GAORA TV copyright strikes. He also has about 20 years of his career well preserved, but even then a lot of stuff from the final years of that run has been lost as well. I imagine there's a significant amount of people that didn't pay much attention to his (still ongoing) All Japan 2010s run. I do think more comparison threads should have been done to let some cases sink in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gqr6Y1u73g I should have also mentioned Wanderlei Silva said in an interview prior to this show that Tamura and Sakuraba which was played up in the story of the match. The blow off was disappointing-I presume because Sakuraba didn't want to work.

Look if it's questioned whether or not a match is a work or a shoot in the first place it can classify as pro wrestling. I'm not really sure what was going on in the grand scheme of things but as soon as I saw this was announced I was hoping "special grappling rules" were a euphemism for pro wrestling. I'm not gonna go into the Sakuraba-Wanderlei interactions and what was going on there, but you have a tag team match with a 15 minute time limit that ended on a draw just as we were getting a banana split nearfall. And there's also literally a point in the match where the ref tells the guys to tag out. And Takada is at ringside commentating and booked this. Takada. And then you watch the Tamura-Tokoro interactions and they are basically a RINGS match, which is what I'm all about. I would cut everything else out if I were doing a JIP but if you want to see Tamura grapple like it's 1998 while working a Petr Čech gimmick (there's probably a rational explanation for his headgear but I don't want to hear it) this is your best bet.

I loved this, Kalisto is so great, I think they finally found the heir to Rey and I hope at least someone in the back is aware of it. This makes me want to watch all the matches he's had on TV in the last two months that I've missed because I did think he was the best WWE worker of 2016 after my last binge. Just a super fun match built around the size difference with Ryback throwing Kalisto around and him taking nutty bumps, Kalisto busts out a bunch of fun spots that are fluent and pretty yet are simple enough to be worked into most TV matches. Lots of nifty cut offs here and a satisfying finish with Ryback reaping what he sowed. ***1/4

I kind of fucked Santo over, I watched most of his 96/97 rudo run after the deadline and...........yeah. I had him 17 when he should have been 11. Oh well. You live and learn.

Look it might not match Yoji Kuri shorts in terms of the weirdest stuff I've ever seen but if we look strictly at pro wrestling Triple H's entrance is up there. Roman Reigns gets the Chris Jericho vs CM Punk Wrestlemania 28 entrance, you'd think he's about to be Booker T'd and not win the WWE World Heavyweight Championship in front of the biggest Wrestlemania crowd in history. I liked this a lot, it did feel like a match that had more thought put into it than it should've but my impression is that with different participants and a different crowd this same exact match would get completely different reviews. And, I dont want to downplay the importance crowd reactions has to some folks when ratings stuff but.....IDK I drowned the noise out. I liked all the early brawling, Reigns has a good punch and Triple H was solid as well, his side headlock punches didn't look much different than Flair's really and I popped for him busting out a bunch of new shit to pop himself. Reigns took a sweet bump on the Swinging Neckbreaker off the table, though you do question off all the moves you could do why would you do a Swinging Neckbreaker where you take a bump even when you're executing the move. Then again most pro wrestlers are supposed to be dumb. Triple H busting out the second rope knee drop was interesting as well, and even if I could see the counter coming when he went for it the second time I still thought it looked good so I didn't mind it that much. Reigns should probably drop the corner clotheslines and replace them with the 10 corner punches. The Clothesline over the steel steps looked cool but following it up with three steel steps bumps was pretty much the definition of diminishing returns. The Spear through the barricade would be another example of that, just a few years ago it felt like a holy shit spot and now it's just another transitional spot I didn't even pop for that much. Steph as the evil witch was hilarious at ringside, have to laugh at anyone who ever argued she was the best non-wrestler at any point. I did like the armwork, Triple H doing Fujiwara tribute spots was too amusing for me to complain about it and none of the spots went that long. My response to the Inoki comparison and the pre-MMA armbars is that I sat through a bunch of those matches and I found this more amusing than Inoki and Andre The Giant rolling around. I really don't see any point in Reigns doing a sit out for his power spot, it just makes it look even less impressive when it's a move for which he can't deadlift the other guy all the way up in the first place. I really liked the way they used finishers, never felt like they were there just for a cheap pop, first Spear had the Steph interference to *theoretically* build heat and the first Pedigree was just after Reigns Speared Stephanie and that whole sequence felt huge. Triple H holding onto the hammer after Reigns Superman Punched him was solid work on his part to build drama and I liked that final sequence a lot as well. I'd have this at ***1/4 which is like what Meltzer have it I think. But screw it, I shit on more than enough pro wrestling matches, I can like one no one else likes.