GOTNW

McManus was the most accessible World Of Sport guy for me, possibly because of how much he utilized striking. The spot where he grabs his opponent's tights with the right hand to distract to referee and then chokes him with his left hand is brilliant and-again-redirection in pro wrestling rules! His ear shtick is fine and provides an easy target when it's time for his babyface opponents to do revenge spots though I don't think it has as much substance as say Breaks' nose shtick. Still he will beat on a guy and that is what I like on wrestling and the Saint match is one of the most impressive performances I've ever seen.

Oh god. Yes. You can call Maeda an unprofessional asshole as well. Actually you'd have much more basis for that because he did actually legitimately injure people. Still doesn't stop him from being a wrestling icon. How many times did Ogawa actually injure someone? I can't recall any. No, I haven't and I don't want to. I haven't done any MMA training because I didn't want to. I've done judo but I don't see how that's relevant here. Fuck off. I'm not even gonna dispute Ogawa's kicks are reckless. There's no point in doing that because obviously they are. For the record, Kawada concussed Foley with his reckless head kicks. When did Ogawa injure anyone? And, once again. I don't care. You can trip or land badly and suffer a career ending injury. Pro wrestling is physical (in case you haven't realises by now). If you're bringing ethics into pro-wrestling, well, I'm not sure how to even respond to that. If you knew anything about Ogawa's actualy fighting ability you'd know if he didn't want to take that move he wouldn't have and Daichi couldn't have done anything to change that. Moves that aren't hit super clean are very common in japanese wrestling, and I'll gladly take struggle over hitting a move than a lack of it. "Andre vs jobber" is about the same type of match Ogawa-Daichi was. Ogawa is easily above every single one of those guys. He's done what, one job in his career since he dropped the gi? Working even 15 minute showcase matches isn't a real thing that was going to happen in Daichi's matches vs guys like Kazuyuki Fujita and Naoya Ogawa. You can hate on the booking but his presentation has been pretty consistent.

I don't see how any of your criticisms are relevant to the match. The Backdrop Suplex was pretty much picture perfect for Daichi's comeback spot. Daichi is shorter and weighs less than Ogawa, he shouldn't (and didn't) throw him around with ease. Ogawa sold for Daichi plenty, especially considering the difference in their pecking order. Daichi is a post-rookie, not someone on Ogawa's level. Ogawa sold the threat of his strikes early on and let him have a couple of comeback spots, I have no idea what more you could be asking for. I expected it to be a total squash for Daichi to get zero offence in. If you're bothered by unsafe kicks in japanese wrestling well-especially in fucking IGF of all places-I don't really care. It's like criticizing Cena for terrible punches or a WWE heel for locking in a chinlock for too long or or or. I can understand someone disliking the style, but for those that do enjoy it (like me) you're just wasting your time typing stuff like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKeZa1Ok30M&feature=youtu.be Ogawa vs Daichi Hashimoto. I wrote WAAAAAY too much about this, more than anyone should about a three minute match. Ogawa ended up being a tough cut for me but this is making me regret leaving him off. It really is my favourite match of 2015.

Well fixed bouts based on showmanship would certainly pre-date that from my understanding so what would the "traditional working aspects" even be?

My original post didn't even dispute this. I often throw lazy comments so I guess this is that biting me in the ass now. So I'll answer it properly. We get this: and also this: If you interprete the first point like you did (it doesn't even explain what it is they were doing in Europe) it doesn't add up. We know pro wrestling changed dramatically since it originated in France in the 19th century of whenever but if americans didn't invent pro wrestling (which they didn't), then what exactly did they change? They popularized it, sure, but rarely do I see people address these things. Maybe there are proper answers on wrestlingclassics or somewhere. Loss answered that on twitter by mentioning championships, commentary and stuff like that, but those are really sports ideas and the idea that americans are the only ones who could possibly think of them are laughable, and it's questionable whether they were the ones to first think of them (I really can't fathom there not being a "wrestling champion" of some sorts before wrestling spread to the US, it's just human nature to want to decide who is the best/strongest etc.)

My opinion on the article is vastly different from the one I have about the tiny bits in it that depict wrestling as an american creation. Doesn't mean those bits shouldn't be commented on.

Did you even read the article? How about you cut the passive aggressive bullshit out and just get straight to the point.

It's interesting though the "wrestling is AMERICAN" talking points are rather tiresome when we know it isn't the case. But I guess nothing different should be expected, especially when the european catch scene has been dead for so long and the guys that are trying to revive it now are using just another branch of cosplay wrestling. Obviously US played a major role in it spreading so much (like they do in everything) but you'd think with America supposedly being so "great" they wouldn't have such an inferiority complex over everything.

Shinya Hashimoto & Masa Saito vs Scott Hall & Punisher Dice Morgan-NJPW 19.3.1990. I had no idea The Undertaker had challenged for the IWGP Tag Titles. He looked really green here, busting out the world's sloppiest gutwrench suplex, relying on the iron claw to get through many control segments and just being dull in general. Hall wasn't very impressive either. I enjoyed Hashimoto potatoing guys, and watching him and Masa Saito throw the big americans around was a lot of fun. I loved Saito's hulk up and comebacks, they really got the crowd into the match. While Hall and Taker weren't any good I feel like despite their underwhelming control segments they didn't ruin the match altogether because the match wasn't that long and it peaked at just the right time so I feel like it deserves at least a passable rating. **1/2 Shinya Hashimoto & Masahiro Chono vs Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara-WAR 1.10.1993. Hashimoto-Tenryu is an all time great match up, Hara is also really cool and while I could do without Chono and the annoying sounds he makes while kicking or just breathing he was completely fine here. I mean you don't have to be very good to make Tenryu and Hara beating the shit out of you compelling but he deserves props here, he kicked people in the head and used his overness to rile up the crowd, can't ask much more than that. I absolutely love the way Hashimoto would block Tenryu's chops by shielding his chest with his arm, Hashimoto is a guy wnose move-set is both distinctive and unique without being alienating or wacky but when he is in there with Tenryu he will punch him in the face and that is what I am about. Last minute is just out of this world dramatic. On the short side, but very action packed and you can't complain when the action includes Tenryu soccer kicking folks. Another match whose rating I only see improving if I ever decide to rewatch it. ***3/4 Shinya Hashimoto & Tatsumi Fujinami vs Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa-WAR 24.5.1993. Man what more can I even write about these. There are times where I will laugh out loud at the preposterousness of the stiffness displayed and that is what this match managed to achieve. It also has some really smart limbwork that you initially think they might be doing just to take a break from all the shitbeating but it plays into the finish in a big way and it's awesome. One of my favourite bits here was when Fujinami initially entered he started *wrestling* with Ishikawa and I was all like "look Fuji, I love you but that is not what you do in these interpromotional tags* and then the second time he enters the ring he just unloads on Tenryu and starts slapping the taste out of his mouth and all is right in the world. The amazing finish has Hashimoto and Tenryu brawling all around the ring and after the match they dare each other to hit one another with their signature strikes/kicks which is awesome and totally makes sense in the context because the athletic competition they were trying to win in (okay not really but) is now over and the spite is overflowing in them and they're pissed off and just spouting macho bullshit at one another. ****1/4

Has WWE ever attempted something like this?

That's on you. "Used to" doesn't mean anything to me and my list reflects that. I thought MVP was the best wrestler when I was 11 because I digged his outfit and name. Some opinions don't hold up. I get that, but was MVP ever a consensus top wrestler in the world like Kurt Angle was? I think Angle, more than just about anyone, is a guy we're judging negatively for traits that we once found positive. I guess the gist of my issue with how Angle is evaluated is that, somehow our opinions changed and we're upset that his style didn't change with them. He was almost universally praised for his wrestling style, what motivation would he have to change? I don't watch TNA so maybe I have a different perspective, but we didn't start picking apart his WWE run until it was over. So it is kind of like listening to RUN DMC and being mad that they don't rap like Kendrick Lamar. I started watching wrestling after Angle's WWE run was already over so I really can't comment on something like that. To a lot of people his work still has merit. To those that it doesn't I hope they'd move on with their fandom instead of binge watching Angle matches just to pick them apart and yell about how bad they are. To me the problem with Angle is that that I just don't think he's very captivating at working the style he does. I don't think I can judge rap fairly beucase the spectrum of rap I like includes like, Milo, some Beastie Boys and that one Dr.Octagon album, but I also see no point in me arguing about any of it when the reality is that I'm a white kid removed from the struggles and the issues that fuel so much of rap music. I do however enjoy a bunch of pro wrestling that is either spotty and/or fast paced, and with me branching out and watching so much other stuff from all around the world and also having a shift in taste, Angle's stuff just didn't hold up.

That's on you. "Used to" doesn't mean anything to me and my list reflects that. I thought MVP was the best wrestler when I was 11 because I digged his outfit and name. Some opinions don't hold up.

Shinya Hashimoto vs Kensuke Sasaki-NJPW 9.4.2001. I remember hearing about this match, I think I read an old article from SSS Stuart which depicted it as a disaster and shit on the booking and the Inokiism in it. Luckily I'm way too into absurdism to care about who wins in pro wrestling (especially in a fifteen year old match) and the way it was described really made me want to see it. Honestly this might be the best Hashimoto-Kensuke Sasaki match. I'm not sure how many matches they've had against each other but of the top off my head I can think of a Hash IWGP Title defence vs. Power Warrior, one in the Dome and a G1 match and I would have this one above all of them. It's billed as a "no rules deathmatch", that doesn't mean you're going to get garbage spots and heavily gimmicked stuff, just more punches to the face and also a very clever submission spot built around the stipulation. Hashimoto comes out wearing boxing gloves and man do these two beat on one another, they throw a lot of nasty shots in close range and while clinching before the match evolves into ridiculous bomb throwing. I could see the uniqueness of the pacing and (somewhat of) the finish throwing some folks off but I really appreciated them. It's esentially a proto-Futen match. **** Shinya Hashimoto & Riki Choshu vs Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa-WAR 2.4.1993. There's no way this lives up to the hype I created for it in my head right? WRONG. Hashimoto and Tenryu start things off and they tease each other for a bit before BREAKING DOWN and they just fucking go at it and throw reackless blows at each other and it totally makes sense that all of them are connecting but none where they should because they're just manically throwing as many blows as possible and it really comes off like they want to kill each other. I also much prefer Hashimoto's philosophy of "fuck you, if your sloppy enzuigiri can only hit my shoulder I'm jumping on you and punching you in the face" to selling it like a death blow despite it not looking good. This match kind of represents everything I love about pro wrestling and even with my ridiculously high rating I feel like I'm selling it short. There's a spot in there when Tenryu starts chopping Choshu and just as he's about to deliver the third one Choshu backs off and tags Hashimoto in and it's just so wonderfully pro wrestling. This Takashi Ishikawa guy, let me tell you, he'll do a Legdrop, nothing fancy about it, won't wow you with his athleticism, but it is a legdrop that will connect and I wonder how the hell has Hashimoto's nose remained not broken after it. That seems to piss of Tenryu who makes sure to shoot kick Hashimoto in the nose to break it later on. Who doesn't love a good FIP segment? This match had a fantastic one, Tenryu and Ishikawa just beat the shit out of him, man if you're going to hide a blade job I can't think of a better way to do so than doing one while you're blocking soccers kicks to the head. Tenryu and Ishikawa will double team and cheat and piss you off whenever in peril and suddenly I find myself incredibly emotionally invested in a match that happened 23 years ago. What's also great is that these teams really do feel like teams-the aforemention backing off of Choshu was a great moment, but when Choshu finally makes his comeback Ishikawa avoids a Riki Lariat and Hashimoto comes in and kicks him to assure Choshu's second attempt is successful and they really are making it look like they have each other's back. The finish is just so great, completely chaotic, everyone swinging at everyone, eventually Choshu pissess Tenryu off so much he goes after him and stars unloading on him with these sickening punches which also leaves Ishikawa alone with Hash and well.....you can guess how that ended up. Post-match Tenryu goes after Hash and they unload on each other once again and then you think ok this was amazing great match everyone but Tenryu grabs the microphone and cuts a "fuck you mate" promo and then throws the mic ONTO CHOSHU'S FACE. ****3/4 Shinya Hashimoto vs Masahiro Chono-NJPW 29.7.1994. "I'm overwhelmed by the greatness, time for a Chono match" may or may not have gone through my mind. I have a hard time rating this because all I could find is a TV version that showed about half of it but what was showed was shockingly good. Chono looked really motivated here, first thing we see is him viciously choking Hashimoto, it's not even an STF he's holding him in as he has a sleeper on instead of a facelock, Hashimoto sells it like Chono is torturing him and Chono just viciously goes after him, his attacks are focused and mostly aimed at Hashimoto's cut, Hashimoto's selling is really amazing as he gets over that he is wounded but also that he is still incredibly dangerous and could make a comeback at any time, like Misawa would late in his matches. I have no idea what the fuck Chono was thinking here, maybe he got a really great payday but he takes a bump that someone with a broken neck really shouldn't take. Hashimoto's kick flurries are awesome and the great looking counter finish enhances this even more. I'd give what was shown ***3/4 I think that sounds about right. Shinya Hashimoto vs Jake Roberts-NJPW 23.9.1993. This was is just too bizarre of a match up for me not to give it a watch. I'd seen virtually nothing of Jake Roberts before so I was slightly worried about how they were going to match up but he really impressed me with his performance here. Everything here looked really snug, there was struggle over every move, Roberts' stooging was entertaining, they sold the threat of each other's finishing maneuvers nicely, I enjoyed Roberts' character work and mannerisms, his punches looked really good and while this wasn't build around absurd stiffness like some of Hashimoto's more famous matches they did lay in some nasty shots towards the end of the match. I also found it amusing how they worked in Robert's heel spots with Hashimoto not falling for them so easily like your big dumb american babyface would. ***1/4

I think I've seen some people (Matt specifically) say Cena's last run has diminished him in their eyes. It hasn't in mine and I want to expand on that. It's true that the Owens matches were complete spotfests. I don't think they were great either. But I see them more as a political play than anything. I think Triple H and Cena were behind the guy and having him kick out of more finishers than the Rock did is sending a pretty clear "I won't let you fuck this guy up" message. I also tremendously enjoyed most of his matches from the time period when he was working guys like Neville, Zayn and even guys like Stardust and Zack Ryder whom I've never really cared about. And I think more often than not whenever there was kicking out of finishers in his matches it could be excused for some reason, and it also helps that he didn't do those when he was facing a Ryder, a Stardust or a Kane. What also hepled me not lose my confidence in Cena as a worker was the shockingly strong match he has vs. Rollins at Night Of Champions that was pretty much the antithesis of his work with Owens, and nothing Rollins has done in his entire career has indicated he has the brains to structure a match that well, not to mention we now Cena calls the spots anyway. As for the Rock-Cena matches, I found the first one shockingly good, though I haven't seen it pretty much since it happened. The rematch I loathed, but I do think there is at least some merit in what was done in it. There was the genius callback spot, but also it may have been the first match to break the "rule of three" WWE had been so strict about following in big matches. The problems there are that the rule was kind of broken in the big Undertaker Wrestlemania matches in the previous years and also that the result was a foregone conclusion. And Rock may have gotten injured in the match like he did in every other return match of his so who knows how that affected things as well. So, while I do see merit in the criticisms against his work in the last calendar year, I'm still confident in my ranking of him, and the placement i picked.

Shinya Hashimoto vs Keiji Mutoh-NJPW 12.6.1990. Mutoh can fuck off forever. This is such an ambivalent match up, and you'd hope with this being 1990 Mutoh would give a shit, and maybe he did but at this point he has no clue how to pro-wrestle. He works over Hashimoto's leg and it's really dry, dull and completely uninteresting. Mutoh will grab a shitty toe hold and Hashimoto will counter it by just punching him in the face and I am trying to figure out how anyone could come to the conclusion Mutoh was ever better than Hash. He could jump high. I guess that's important to some. He did a really nice elbow drop flurry. He got really impressive height on those elbow drops. If only he could structure a match worth shit. Hashimoto does his best to try and make something of Mutoh's work, selling well for him, switching to his right leg, but there really is no focus to Mutoh's work, he'll just start doing random shit because he think it looks cool, he'll go from working a kneebar to a punch flurry in the corner to doing cartwheel planchas without any logic or rhythm. He can bump well at least so it's gratifying when Hashimoto DDT's his head through the ring but fuck man this just has WAAAAY too much Mutoh in control to be good. I did enjoy parts of it, like Hashimoto continously countering Mutoh's holds by throwing him around but this is as unremarkable as a Hashimoto match gets. Also Mutoh jumps Hashimoto at the beginning of the match by irish whipping him and then doing the cartwheel elbow which was every bit as stupid as it sounds. **1/2 Shinya Hashimoto vs Bam Bam Bigelow-NJPW 17.8.1991. I liked this a lot, I am all about hoss fights and watching these two crash into each other was a lot of fun, Bigelow does a really cool bump and catapults himself outside of the ring over the top rope which made Hashimoto's deadly kick look even more badass. Fun slams and strikes and stuff. ***1/4 Shinya Hashimoto vs Akitoshi Saito-NJPW 2.7.1994. I kinda freaked out over this, I'm about as big of an Akitoshi Saito fan as there is and Hash is #1, they start this by Hash just beating the shit out of Saito and I'm thinking this might be one of those Choshu superiority matches where one guy takes the entire match because fuck you New Japan is strongest. Then Saito makes a comeback with these great looking body punches and awesome knee strikes and I realise we're getting a different type of the Choshu superiority booking match, still you want to see Hashimoto beat on someone and Saito will fire back with some nice shots as well. Very short (just under 5 min) and a great use of my time. ***1/4+

Agreed. Bryan used to beat the shit outta Big Show when he made his heel turn. He was a cowardly heel but he still was a bad ass in the ring. Show bumped his ass off for him too. Bryan would kick the shit out of Big Show. Big Show would also kick out at 2 and throw Bryan half way across the ring and Bryan would run away from him a lot and fight against Big Show like you would fight against Big Show. Big Show would bump huge for like, Bryan Dropkicking him in the leg, but that's what he does for pretty much everyone so....

I think how someone sees Akiyama is largely dependant on what they appreciate in wrestling, and by that i don't mean style as much as the Parv post Loss brought up on twitter the other day. To me Akiyama's strenght isn't so much in how great his best match in a year is (not to say he doesn't have some that are absolutely epic and would be contenders for a MOTY of a certain year, because he does) but how many other very good-great matches and performances he has. There's also the problem of the traditional notion of a "great match", because people largely associate it with long singles matches, often championship bouts and Akiyama's case isn't built on those imo. Not his case for being a top 10 wrestler of all time anyway. I'll do 2005 onwards: 2005-vs. Hashi (can I leave this somewhat vague and say SOMETHING vs. Hashi? a lot of tags there) 2006-vs Masao Inoue 4/23 2007-either the Kobashi return match or Akiyama/Rikioh vs Takayama/Sugiura 4/28 (though best Akiyama performance is probably the Yone sprint) 2008-vs. Morishima 12/11 I guess? 2009-vs. KENTA 5/17 2010-vs. Sugiura for the GHC title or vs. Kensuke Sasaki from the Global League 2011-vs. Suwama for the Triple Crown (s/o to his matches vs. Shiozaki for the GHC and the 7/10 Nakajima match) 2012-Akiyama/Kobashi vs. Kensuke Sasaki/Kitamiya 2013-Akiyama/Shiozaki vs Suwama/Doering 6/2 2014-vs. Omori 6/15 2015-Akiyama/Omori vs Shiozaki/Miyahara 8/29 2016-vs. Jake Lee 1/3

Akiyama booked himself. He never wanted to be on top. If you want to judge him for not being comfortable with being the top guy then you're free to do so but that's all there it was to it.

I'd say this is untrue, not because his lack of ability but I don't remember him working any rookie punishment matches where he was the punished rookie. Maybe vs. Hansen. But due to the nature of his early push I don't he worked many of them. He is amazing as the punisher, and I don't think anyone in history has excelled in that role more than Akiyama. Even if you watch something as early as his match vs The Lacrosse in 1996 you see just how fucking great he is at that sort of thing. Well you should.

To me that early portion was crucial in the match being as great as it was. I see that match and Misawa/Akiyama 27/2/2000 as the last takes on King's Road. Yes, Akiyama recovered and took control of the match, but the damage never went away, and him taking so much punishment early on let them not do the usual "million nearfalls" finishing stretch.

You can easily draw the line because he's like five feet tall.

OJ's ballot would break all of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyQXbH3L4hQ I'm thinking of bumping him up like ten spots for this.

To put things into perspective the Smarkshoice poll had 49 voters so things are looking good.