GOTNW

Well it would certainly help if it was specific Hase performances criticised instead of just general statements beings made. I'd be interested in looking into this if anyone wants to throw matches at me.

That is probably somewhat of a mistake on my part looking at it now. I guess the beatdown is so entrenched in my memory I assumed it went on for longer. Somewhat of a mistake I say-because I've brough up earlier when Parv reviewed the match-there was double legwork early on. It wasn't one continous control segment by Hase. I'm too tired to go re-watch the match now and try to point to when exactly does the battle for the early holds and such turn into proper limbwork. But at one points Hashimoto does opt to move onto kicks and strikes and such while Hase continues focusing on his leg. Still 14 minutes of that match being Hase legwork is incorrect and I stand by my point, even with misremembering things a little bit (things that aren't of that big signifigance in our argument, in my opinion). It was justified in what they were going for.

I will also point out the legwork wasn't the body of the match like it is in say, a big Tanahashi match, and that I found the legwork engaging enough of it's own and didn't really need it to be intertwined with the body of the match to like it. But it was, and I loved the way they did it. There's also a point Ditch used to bring up that selling should be proportional to the amount of punishment received. It's not like Hase worked over Hashimoto's leg for twenty five minutes.

I want to like you because you like Ohtani but you're making it really hard. If you've watched a good amount of japanese wrestling you'll notice peculiar selling patterns. Western fans have two ways of reacting to them 1) it sucked, he no sold the leg! 2)I don't care that he no sold the leg, it didn't bother me. Both are equally incorrect and don't tell you anything. If you've ever watched a return match it's common for a returning wrestler's opponent to target his in these matches and for the returning wrestler to shrug it off. It may not always be a return match even, just a focus on a certain limb and the opponent shrugging it off. It's not even limited to japanese wrestlers. Ever watch someone work over Stan Hansen's arm? It's the same thing. Hase works over Hashimoto's leg. Hashimoto initially registers the pain, but he shrugs it off. He kicks the shit out of him regardless. That's what really makes it stand out to me from the other matches in which Hashimoto takes so much of them by kicking the shit out of someone. Hase has a gameplan. He executed it. It still failed. It made the contrast that much bigger and Hase's comeback that much more amazing. I used to say stupid shit like that too, until I realised I was giving matches lesser ratings than I wanted to, so I thought about it and started noticing all this patterns and judging matches for what they are actually trying to achieve and not for not being wrestled like they would be in a different (read: AMERICAN) setting. I mean just look at how ridiculously constructed this is: How many Hashimoto matches have you seen? Do you really think he would just start no-selling shit for no reason?

Could you go more in depth on this? I loved Hase's performance in it as well but the idea it was a Hase carry job or even close to it is just mind-boggling. Lack of selling as in? I could write a lot in why I though him shrugging off the legwork was the right thing to do. If you're talking about him just being dominant in general, well, that was kind of the point of the match to set up the surprise flash finish and it worked great. I am already rolling my eyes not this again. I'm still waiting for someone to say something worthwhile on his "shortcomings". "Hash doesn't have career defining rivals" disagree, Choshu feud is my favourite feud ever, the WAR/Tenryu feud is amazing, the Naoya Ogawa feud is so so so so great in literally every aspect of it. Not just like matches you have Hashimoto hunting down Ogawa while he's NWA champ literally travelling to America to challenge him to a match and then you have press conferences where tables are flipped and Hashimoto completely changes his look and. Fuck. Do you people even like pro wrestlng. "Hash doesn't have the all time great matches"-again, this gets brough up and I have no idea what to even say. I mean, I get people don't love Hashimoto as much as me but I don't remember the last time someone brough something constructive to Hash critique.

I had Pirata Morgan relatively high on my list (if the avatar doesn't take it away) but Perro is higher. Think he's a more consistent worker and better at dragging worthwhile matches out of not-good opposition.

Just submitted mine.

I just roll my eyes whenever people say Misawa was the "worst" performer in 6/9/95 or something like that. You have this entire match built on the narrative of Kawada finally beating Misawa and Kawada/Taue finally beating Misawa/Kobashi (both of which Misawa's ace status was crucial in), the entire finishing stretch is built on Misawa's superhuman ability to come back from devastating beatings and him breaking his ace character by showing vulnerability (like when he rolled out of the ring which may be the best spot in wrestling no one ever talks about), he sacrifices his Frog Splash so Kobashi can finally hit his Moonsault, Kobashi does all in his power to ruin the match in the end when he tries to make it about himself yet somehow HE is the best performer in it. Yeah. Ok.

She has great matches vs. Kansai and Hokuto as well

Where's her UWF run?

And their logic changes with time. Sometimes the different usage of selling and such leads to change, sometimes it doesn't. And of course there's the question of whether someone likes the setting altogether. Anyway I just find it too interesting of a topic to think it can be summarized with such a brief comment.

Expecting consistency in all of wrestling is ridiculous. Things vary a lot from setting to setting. A Piledriver is a deah blow when Buddy Rogers does it but it's no sold when done on the floor in the 1984 New Japan gauntlet several folks think is the best match of all time. Both "make sense" in their respective settings. And even if they chose not to follow the selling "rules" established in the promotion you'd probably get plenty of people defending it (see: Shibata-Ishii Wrestle Kingdom).

Selling is an illogical concept. Pro wrestling is inherently illogical.

Mochizuki looks like a sloppy fake karate guy in the 90s and I really don't see how anyone could be super high on that stuff, and that's the only period from which I could imagine Parv watching a match of his. He's essentially another worker in Dragon Gate, which I'm sure Parv would love and would instantly convince him modern wrestling is better than "old school".

Hashimoto did have his share of influence. Like you don't immediately associate a Samoa Joe with him but he did work ZERO-1 and somewhat model himself after him. Ohtani's style changed alongside him, and it would be interesting to look into how much a guy like Sekimoto working Zero-1 so much from from all the way back in 2001 has influenced Big Japan and the creation of its strong division. I can also say that, personally, as a fan my interest in it really took off once Kohei Sato, a Hashimoto trainee, started working there, and that his presence played an important part jn the style overcoming some of its initial limitations.

Every time someone generalizes about the board like this, a small part of Loss' soul cries out. I hope the results prove me wrong.

I have a couple od diferent categories here: Firstly there's people like Jumbo and Liger whom I've just gotten bored of. I still think they're great wrestlers but I've found much of their work disappointing and they've taken a just hit in my rankings. But they're still there, because I still think they're great wrestlers, just not as great as other people think they are. Then there's someone like Samoa Joe. I think his best stuff holds up, I still think it's great, but like half of his career isn't very appealing to me, and the great stuff isn't great enough for me to look past it, so he isn't on there. Someone like Zayn/Generico is hard for me because if I were basing it just on amount of great matches he'd have to be in. Yet voting for him just didn't seem right. I went back and watched some of his indy stuff and the magic seems to be gone for me. I haven't been crazy about him since he returned either and him still being an active performer only further complicates things. I think it's a matter of my taste shifting, and I'll reserve judgment on him for another GOAT project. Then there's someone like Manami Toyota, who I think has had great matches in a style that I'm not really for, but I find screaming and other joshi tropes too distracting to dive into her work enough to rank her. Maybe she'll rank for me when I do something similar in the future, maybe she won't even get a consideration. I'm not doing a list based on favouritism. It may butthurt you I don't think *insert 80s american wrestler* is all that special but considering how many great wrestlers that didn't have the privilege of working in the time and style this board favours are going to be handicapped because of it I feel just fine. If anything that I might have to cut a bubble guy like Tamon Honda hurts me, because I do think he is a great wrestler and doubt he's getting much consideration from anyone else and I'd hate to see him make zero ballots but I intend on staying true to myself and part of that will include cutting guys I love.

I'd opt for the ballots to be public and for at least having an account here be mandatory but I really don't see how that would be an isolationist policy. It's not like PWO is like WKO where people get dismissed based on having different opinions and get deleted for stupid reasons, everyone is welcomed. If we're doing this huge project then one of the end goals should be to get more people to participate in board discussion, and them explaining their lists could be a start of some interesting discussion. But it's not my call so whatevs.

Why bother watching wrestling at all really.

Misawa's biggest quality for me is that even his disappointing matches are ones I would gladly revisit and figure out why they didn't work out, and also can usually come up with at least a solid excuse for that happening. Whereas if an Akiyama match bombs (which has happened plenty of times, and I wonder if the amount of footage that isn't online anymore may result in a skewed view of him later) it's usually dull as shit and not something I want to watch ever again. Maybe that's because of how great Misawa's offence is.

Figuring out what to do with the golden age workers is the last thing I'll do before finalizing my list. I think Rogers will rank for me. The Thesz matches are amazing, and showcase that he is, at minimum, a very, very, very good tehnician with excellent character work and an all time great Dropkick and Piledriver. The O'Connor match is a five star bout in my opinion. The slams into the corner sounds mundane today, but he made them look really brutal and the corners not having padding probably help there as well. One of my favourite spots from the Thesz matches was when Thesz had him in a Hammerlock and he feinted a Snapmare counter only to pull his leg underneath him and counter it that way. That king of smart usage of redirection is something that makes me feel comfortable ranking him despite the small sample of his work we have. The Haystack Calhoun match was extremely important for me as well as it showed him carrying a circus act to a borderline great match.

I was initially quite disappointed with her as she didn't live up to the more-shoot inspired vision of her I'd envisioned (though that may be simply due to watching the wrong stuff). Recently I watched a tag match where she started busting out all these awesome submissions, including a Fujiwara Armbar in which she used her own leg to hyperextend her opponent's arm which immediately became one of my favourite spots. Not making my list this time around but I look forward to revisiting her work later.

Yes. No Mercy 2006 is better however.

Benoit and Regal has an amazing match on a PPV and a very good match on a random Velocity in 2006 so you may be watching the wrong stuff there as well.

Shoot style has as much bomb throwing as any other style.