Parties

Divas match was solid if entirely predictable. Paige interview afterwards was a decent effort at getting them to boo her, but kind of one of those deals where today's workers aren't taught to read the crowd and work with the reaction they're getting. The heels who get cheered get the same flop sweat that the unpopular faces have. Also: Ric Flair's offspring may be the worst promo they've had in years. Her segment with Renee was almost baffling.

Increased video packages: interesting. Not as fun as inset promos, but not the worst idea either. Wyatt segment had me regretting going sans beer. Dragons vs. European Connection (oof) was very good. Pinning Barrett isn't a triumph, but they built it up, match had some heat, and they even seemed to be trying some new things in production with the match (camera angles, having the announcers go quiet for stretches). Crowd liked the faces.

Dave put people in the HOF that he thought were bad workers. So if current voters don't vote for bad workers, it's their own fault, not Dave's. I'm saying for the current nominees going forward. There have been slam dunk candidates who he doesn't like as workers - I would guess you're referring to guys like Hogan, Rock, maybe Mascaras (not sure of his opinion on him). Out of the 200 people in the HOF, those are the only 3 that look like people he might not like in-ring, and I suspect that he would recognize that they were all good at certain things and more importantly are undeniable as candidates. Maybe Dave's lobbying for/against certain people doesn't affect the voting as much as I'd guess, esp. for non-English speakers who wouldn't be listening to his podcasts or reading the Observer, but how many such people even get a ballot? Point being that constantly harping on JYD becomes gospel to many fans, including many of those given ballots. Ditto the idea that a Fujiwara shouldn't be on the ballot, even though people ask about it often. Dave doesn't view his matches as transcendent or influential the way many of us do, and brings up things like not being a perennial main eventer in New Japan (ignoring UWF and the UWF-NJ feud) or someone like Minoru Suzuki not liking him as a boss in PWFG as reasons to dismiss him. That all said, I don't think he's wrong to say who he thinks should/shouldn't be in, and would only hope people take it with a grain of salt. And I am curious if there are other notable cases of people he doesn't like but still put on.

Story of this week is that Del Rio is smarter than everyone thought. His stock has risen, AAA is a bridge that can be burned and rebuilt a hundred times over, and he's now the latest example - and best in recent memory - of Vince only respecting those with the stones to tell him to go to hell.

If Meltzer thinks you're a bad worker, you'll likely never make the HOF. He's made JYD out to be one of the most glaring examples of "over act who couldn't work at all", while downplaying the length of his peak run and box office. I've never heard him bring up the positive racial impact of his run. From the way Dave talks about him both now and in old newsletters, you'd think he was among the worst in-ring ever. I would guess he hasn't watched a full JYD match in 25 years, so not sure what he'd say about them now. Also not sure if Dog is someone who Meltzer recognizes should be a contender, or if he's someone for whom people of that era/region lobby.

Would strongly disagree with the idea that this guy ever came off as a legit badass. He's one of the few workers in history where I'd say his size really hurt him. By no means am I suggesting that you can't be scary-as-hell and still be five and a half feet tall, but I thought he truly came off as non-threatening. Seeing him live for the first time I just remember thinking, "Really?" It was deflating in that he became the great and powerful Oz, where you realized he didn't hit that hard and had the body of a skinny-fat teenager. His prime coming in mid-2000s ROH hurt in that he would have thrived in a more kayfabed environment - and did if you can call JAPW one. It's hard to come off as tough after the crowd's just watched the Ring Crew Express and Cabana. He should have been a contrast to the smark insider goofiness and instead he felt less credible because of it. Julius Smokes you could buy as legitimately crazy. I never had the same reaction to Homicide, and stuff like pouring bleach down Cabana's throat felt more absurd/anachronistic than violent. But to his credit, Gabe pushed him to the moon and I doubt most folks in the crowd had the same reaction to him that I did. His finest hour might have been the Corino feud? Thought their barbed wire match was actually quite good by barbed wire match standards. While these threads are a fine way to just talk about the pluses and minuses of certain people - he wouldn't make a top 300 for me. Maybe not even a top 500. I was never a fan and he was badly exposed the longer his career went.

The correct answer here is Bobby Eaton. The question also reminds me of the brief circa-'92 tag team in WCW that paired Arn and Eaton together as a team with Michael Hayes as their manager. It made no sense and was kind of just throwing three guys who weren't doing anything together, but on paper that is the most brilliant collection of American tag workers ever assembled. The prospect of all three working trios matches against really any other three guys from that era is insane to consider. I like Yatsu as a thinking-outside-of-the-box-pick, in that tag wrestling brought something out in him that made him both stand out and elite as a partner. Everyone in a Yatsu tag seems to benefit from his presence.

Don't honestly think it matters much at all, esp. when I look at the top of my rankings. Funk and Hansen have great range and diverse careers, which no doubt helps their GOAT case. But Hansen's really the same character his entire career. You can argue that Lawler was as good a heel as he was face (and that he was a good tag worker despite it not being his specialty), but otherwise there's not much versatility to his resume. Fujinami, Fujiwara, Casas, Dundee, Mysterio, Misawa, Kawada, Tenryu, Satanico, Bockwinkel... not guys I'd call versatile with regard to changes in style/character/location/resume. Yet all top 10 contenders to me. The highest ranked workers for me who I would consider versatile would be guys like: Regal (journeyman career, heel/face, American and British rounds style who could even add Japanese stuff in as needed) Eddy (ditto if you replace Euro style with lucha) Liger (worked all over, heel/face, comedy/serious, versatile range of in-ring stylings that he can swap in and out depending on where he's working) Danielson (really impressive resume esp. for his era, great wrestling mind who can change what he's doing depending on the moment/match/character he's portraying) As always, Flair risks being over-analyzed in this discussion, and I can see him going either way. People who find him repetitive will point to the Flair Formula, people making the case for him as GWE or close to it will hype his resume and range of opponents. I think versatility's a little different than "he worked everywhere": it should speak to your capacity to change up what you're doing based on the scenario. To that end, I wouldn't call him particularly versatile, but he's someone who obviously worked well with a wide range of people and as NWA champ was expected to make anyone/everyone look great. He was very capable of doing an All Japan style match, NWA match, a brawl, etc. Much better heel than babyface, to the point that I'd say I don't even find him particularly likable in his in-ring approach: he doesn't draw sympathy the way a great babyface would, or even a uniquely versatile worker like Regal can. He was as versatile as he needed to be for the role he was in, but it's not like he's someone like Eddy or Liger or Danielson who really sought out those opportunities and learned from them. TL;DR: Versatility is neither make nor break. Some of the top contenders had it, others didn't, but overall it's not something I value as much as peak matches, character work, longevity, promos, selling, generosity in making opponents look good, innovation, and many other criteria.

There's also the persistent gospel from Flair - who Meltzer clearly reveres - that Dundee was a nobody.

Is he even one of the top 100 ROH workers? (Note: let's not make this list.) I don't hate his wrestling, and I'm someone who thinks wrestling needs way more comedy, but a lot of his shtick is pretty hack. I shouldn't judge any worker by their podcast - wouldn't be fair to Flair - but even though I often enjoy the guests on Cabana's, he often sounds like Rupert Pupkin on there.

Is his stock rising? The Landel tribute episode of "Exile on Badstreet" has a lot of great stuff to think about, but I'm wondering if he's become a top 100 worker for anyone this year. His Memphis and Crockett runs are dynamite. I love him in-ring but like Embry he's someone where I need to see more to know if he ranks and where. I've seen the classic SMW promo: if it's not the best promo I've ever seen, it's right up there. I'm particularly fond of the moment where in reference to HBK he notes, "Sexiest man in wrestling? That's great." It's said with this hilarious inflection that's at once dismissive of him as a pretty boy while acknowledging that at a younger time in life, heel Landel probably considered himself the sexiest man in wrestling, told people so, and that a part of him has to give kudos to Michaels for now holding an accolade that only Landel himself would have considered his. Like even in his redemption moment there are notes of his past hubris that are really multifaceted and interesting. If people haven't seen the Bob Holly competitive squash from RAW, it's awesome. Really good Landel performance and the first that several years ago made me take notice of his late career renaissance. Pretty much any time he got to drop the corkscrew elbow on someone in his heavier days, it's hit with a balance of surprising agility and the violent knockout power of a fairly fat dude. Way better than the Bret match from Mania.

Need to revisit his 80s Memphis stuff. His USWA "Texas vs. Tennessee" run is fantastic: such a great promo and all of the wild stuff they did (bringing in Dr. Tom as his Roddy Piper, Miss Texas coming out while Gilbert describes how Memphis men must walk their women on leashes three times a day, wrapping Eddie Gilbert in barbed wire, giving Dave Brown a heel faction that could turn him into a Lance Russell-caliber performer) was all so great that I didn't even mind that he's turned to 11 every single time and largely operates in the mode of raving lunatic with little variation. The promo where he talks about how he plans to kill Gilbert while Brown just squints at him with disgust was really something. I watched the Invader I match and it honestly kind of just seemed like a pretty standard brawl. Maybe I've been spoiled by seeing pier six chaos so much in PR, but this didn't feel like the best stuff with Hansen, Colon, Hugo, Travis, etc. Roberto Clemente's tough to beat. For comparison I love the Invader I-Leo Burke boxing match so much more. I can appreciate that the match is something novel for '86, but when you look at the Memphis set you see a fair number of guys kicking or greater amounts of ass before, during, and after. I really like Embry a lot as a character and even in-ring. He's gonna end up being an under the wire borderline pick where depending how much more I watch he could be as high as #80 or not make my ballot at all.

Nishimura will make my list. One of the best workers of the 2000s. I don't know where Gordy will rank on my list - as of now I'd say middle of the pack - but I'm surprised by the critique on him being that he "doesn't have the resume" when you look at his role in so many of the highest ranked matches from the Mid-South, World Class and All Japan sets. I've heard the arguments here that Miracle Violence were a boring team. I don't agree, but if his tags with Doc aren't your bag, I get it. But given that he worked high on the card in so many places throughout the 80s and 90s, and was a prodigy from his teenage years on, it seems odd that a weak resume would be what's holding Gordy back. Unless you think he wasn't good or a prominent enough factor in those acclaimed 80s matches, or simply think those matches were overrated.

I've been a big Summer Rae advocate since her heartfelt Dusty tribute, and it seemed to remind them that she was a money act with whom who they were doing nothing. She deserves a regular spot on the show, even if the Rusev storyline feels derailed right now. That said, a Breeze-Ziggler feud seems a misguided debut, as they're too similar in look and style. It risks making Breeze look like a pale imitator when he's actually the superior worker and gimmick right now. One note I found interesting coming out of RAW this week is that I believe Cole or JBL said that the Wyatt-Reigns feud has been going on for five months. It's really been closer to four, but it's still surprising that they've dragged it out this long in order to kill time before Reigns' 'flair for the gold' redux. While the booking's been bad, it's produced several good matches, and both Wyatt and Reigns actually seem underrated by the average fan right now. It's typical WWE in 2015, where everything is so repetitive and joylessly executed that you forget you're watching really good workers have a long series of good matches - while the one or two good promos that would actually get fans behind it all seem further and further out of reach.

Saying “everyone knows its entertainment” is just Brock’s way of differentiating what he’s achieved in MMA/football vs. WWE. It was in response to Austin’s usual question he asks everyone, “Is it wrestling or sports entertainment?” I saw that as Brock towing the company line and in so many words saying, “I don’t take it as seriously as a UFC shoot situation.” To me, that's not the same as “None of it matters, you’re all a bunch of Fandangos now.” Even though even I would argue that bad booking has led to a roster that really is about 80% Fandangos. His “no one else here is credible enough to break the streak” line was dumb and pointless: much more of an indictment of the company’s short-sightedness than it is a positive about him. The point is that doing so would have given someone credibility. I can’t imagine they were thrilled with him saying it. I agree that almost anyone can be booked to become “legit”/a bonafide draw. I do think winning the UFC heavyweight title is a little different than giving Ryback the Goldberg push, but it’s true that guys can be made in ways that WWE fails to execute. Disagree with the idea that he lacked personality. I liked Podcast Brock more than silent Suplex City Brock. He’d lose some of his mystique if he was cutting long promos, but I do think him being so openly arrogant/aggressive/surprisingly cogent makes for a good character if nothing else. I’d probably rather listen to Brock cut his own promos than have Heyman do it. Even Austin said that he found Lesnar to be such a good talker in UFC that it seems a waste for him to say nothing nowadays. Also: a good portion of his ego seems like a work. He starts the podcast by proudly proclaiming that he was a grade school bully. Few people are both that self-aware and sociopathic at the same time. Even if there’s a lot of truth to it, he’s turning the volume up. I agree that the storyline/veil-lifting duality is confusing, but these podcasts have been roped off for a while now as the shooting range. It breaks kayfabe, but in such a way that the McMahons own and sign off on. Very different from Lana and Rusev if the two of them sold pics to TMZ, or posted all that stuff without it being approved in the sort of sycophantic Godfather consultations that Vince/HHH expect. It’s not as much about kayfabe as it is about control. Austin’s awkward discomfort was so apparent early on that I honestly thought, “Holy shit, they’re actually doing an angle.” The conversation seemed so stilted and full of long, terse pauses that I initially assumed it was Austin “acting” to build perceived tension.

First couple minutes of the Brock podcast were amusing for him using phrases like "Ambiance" and "I was talking to another fellow", while noting "I spend a lot of time on my patios." It weirdly got less interesting the more they talked about wrestling and MMA. Reaction to the choice of words in the Heyman shoutout will be interesting, but I don't expect anyone to be in hot water over it.

Who's the throwback character from Shine that's managed by Leilani Kei and wrestles in unflattering one-piece suits? That's sort of this gimmick.

None of the Von Erichs make my list, but this thread does have me fascinated by the Elseworlds two-footed version of Kerry who as a veteran babyface had fun runs in WCW, USWA, SMW, etc. Drugs would have caught up with him in the end, but the idea of him working against Vader, Arn, Luger, latter-day Flair, Rude, Windham, the MVCs, Tony Anthony, heel Lawler, etc. is interesting.

Not a top 100 guy, but his charisma was a much needed shot in the arm for 2000s Japan. The headbutt was gold, and the FUTEN stuff is a career performance. Just watched him in a pretty mediocre singles with Luke Gallows from Apache Army, but in it noted that he's one of the better sellers in Japan these days.

It's not happening and I'm preaching to the choir, but Cesaro would be a hell of a babyface champion. He's got the skill, the look, and he's over. Why does Vince hate him again? I've heard it's that he considers Cesaro to be a "boring promo", which is untrue and I assume just a synonym for "not American".

I can buy that for 70s/80s Jumbo, but 90-92 when he's a borderline heel desperately staving off the new generation feels like a more dynamic character. I think Misawa's inaccessibility makes him a great character. The idea that both in and out of the ring he came off as a chain smoker hiking up his pants and scowling is compelling. I honestly find someone like Kobashi less accessible, in that Kobashi feels like a Kurt Angle-style lunatic obsessive. Kobashi hulking up and screaming to the sky gets old, esp. in larger doses. Many of the best athletes are grimacing guys with a lot of grit and a general apathy toward bright lights and spectacle. They aren't necessarily pissed off, but they're not warm and their stoicism is central to their persona. Misawa feels a Bjorn Borg, Tim Duncan. Cal Ripken, etc. Thus in the matches where he does express more, it means more.

This crowd is the dirt worst. Hey, Chicago: it was Punk who was over, not you. That Roman promo was odd, but not nearly as bad as people have been saying online. He's in a strange place where they seem to be giving him way more rope than everyone else, as in all the cursing and direct response to the crowd. If this is a political hit, who's pulling the strings? On paper everyone equipped to do such things love him. I see no Anti-Castro Cubans hiding behind the fence. Everyone's throwing the mics down tonight at the end of the promos. It's like they're all so done with the verbiage they're delivering that they can't wait to get it over with. If this is the write-off of Summer, it's a shame as she more than earned her keep in this feud. Killing the Ru-Ru storyline over TMZ seems really petty/wasteful/lame, but let Vince's spiteful burial of the guy marrying his next blonde harassment suit begin. For the second week running, Owens squashing a Lucha Dragon in three minutes is the best match on the show.

I live twenty minutes from that Evolve show and still find a Gargano Leaves Town main event hella unappealing. Still: a Zayn cameo, plus Everett, Galloway, Gulak, Trevor Lee, Williams, and Thatcher is solid stuff. RAW: missed the Divas aside from Banks swatting Brie off the announce table. Ambrose-Orton were entertaining in the opening promos. New Day were good too, and I like that they realized they were becoming too cool to be heels and have found ways to be both annoying braggadocios while still winning matches/holding titles. Cena-Ziggler was uneventful: decent match, but wow that finish was so lame and abrupt. Clear low point of the show thus far: JBL comparing a weak-as-hell two minute Dudley squash to "Stan and Doc."

Capacity of MCU Park (Cyclones Stadium) is 7,500, plus they had seats on the field, so yeah, no way have they ever done a show that would be close to that figure. Wrestling in ballparks is awesome, but it is true that the scope of the field and seating do have a funny way of both being really fun but also making the ring itself seem small. Just a different experience, but that venue is a hundred times better than the other New York options they've used of late.

Spectacular match: I can understand folks not thinking it the technical achievement of Brooklyn, but a more emotional outing IMO. There are things you can gripe about in the execution, but there are no two matches this year that I've enjoyed more than theirs, and those who felt the title change lacked heel-face hatred got it here. I've been totally surprised by how invested I am in the two of them. No one else in wrestling comes close right now. It's mid-October: are people ready to talk about Banks as WOTY yet?