Parties

Along with Busick, Rich Swann has been announced as starting soon in NXT (assuming the two pass the physical). Swann is only 24, despite his hairline being 42. So there's another guy in the Bo Dallas / Jason Jordan camp of seemingly having his whole career ahead of him. Though I do wonder how a guy like Swann - who started training when he was 14 and was working in CZW while still in high school - ends up. Mysterio started when he was 14 too, and can still really go, but his knees are obviously now oatmeal. It's often said that if you develop good conditioning and training habits at a young age, it can really help your longevity later in life. But I could see the inverse happening and guys breaking down faster if they've taken too many stupid bumps too early in development. It'll be interesting to see if the current twentysomethings - call them "the post-post concussion syndrome era" - end up having much longer, healthier careers than the guys who've been getting dropped on their heads in ROH for ten straight years.

Per Loss' request, I'll try to tread lightly here. Look at the cognitive dissonance (if not outright conscious lying) on display in the Hogan debacle right now. He goes on GMA to whimper and beg for his career back and to tell people that he's not a racist. In response to a video in which he says, verbatim, "I am a racist." If the guy who drops N-bombs as insults to the man of color who he fears is sleeping with his daughter (while, again, proudly declaring himself a racist) can rationalize all that and tell himself that there's no hatred there, or that this can all be brushed under the rug as "the way I was raised", it tells you something about how depraved the racial climate is in American life. It's not just that we have grave problems: it's that so many people publicly distort and conceal the vile things that they sincerely believe, if only because they know they're supposed to. No one self-identifies as a villain. Most people know that racism is wrong, even if they can only recognize it as being branded "wrong" culturally. But when we deny our own culpability in such problems, or (as I hear so many people doing of late) deem "political correctness" the real obstacle, you get to where we're currently at. Consider how much of Trump's recent support is predicated on the idea that he's "unafraid to say what he really thinks", "doesn't apologize", and "fights back against political correctness". We're all smart enough to know what "political correctness" really means in that context. You end up with people who still firmly believe in such prejudices, while feeling as though they "aren't allowed" to express what they consider true. You also end up with a great Brian Cage gimmick. (Look Loss, I tied it into wrestling at the end!) Meltzer's response is that of many, many people, since time eternal: I can recognize that something is immoral until my friend does it, at which point I will justify the matter with lame pretext until kingdom come. I can only imagine the language workers used with him on those infamous calls where guys would call him drunk at 3AM to gossip and gripe about their co-workers.

All of which reinforces the idea that the Attitude Era guys are the real stars and that today's roster sucks/aren't stars/can't get over. The New Day are the hottest act in the company right now. The Dudleys, two forty-five year old guys doing the Budweiser "What's Up" frog gimmick in 2015, are seemingly being booked to walk in, immediately get the title shot, and beat the freshest act they've got. Why? Because "they'll still just end up dropping them back a month or two later". And what difference does it make when "The WWE has what, 6 viable teams right now?" Bubba Ray was good by low, low, low TNA standards. His main event run was massively overrated by message boarders desperate for a certain type of southern (by way of NYC) heel. And incidentally: I like the Dudleys. I liked them more seventeen years ago than I do now, but I can see them being a fun addition to the show. I'm even game for them feuding with the New Day. But if they beat New Day for the titles, it sends a really bad message to both the fans and the roster. Do you think 2000 All-Star Game leading scorer Allen Iverson could beat Russell Westbrook one-on-one tomorrow? Even if he could, is that what the NBA would want you to believe? Yet that's the message being delivered by WWE to the casual fan for the thousandth time: "It's not as good as it used to be."

Regardless of whether he's a face or heel, three things come to mind. Win matches. Raise hell. Let him cut better promos (i.e. stop giving him horrible scripts). Even two out of those three would get the job done. I get that it's a PG era and you can't go out there and be '99 Austin, but they need to give Reigns a killer instinct. He had it two years ago, he can have it again. Have him be the chaotic badass who defies the Authority. Or make him a genuine heel. The problem is not with Reigns or his talent. It's that they don't want anyone to get too over, especially at the expense of HHH/Steph/”the brand”. This idea that losing matches would make him “sympathetic” or get people to forget Bryan was laughable bullshit when it first came out, and all the moreso now. The idea proposed here of going on a yearlong losing streak is truly horrible. It's a fool's errand to book for smarks or try to guess what trolls will boo/cheer. Nor do you need to bother with all that if you're booking faces and heels in the most elementary ways. We've been over this before, but the issue is not that Reigns isn't over. It's that no one is over.

I am worried. I'm sitting in a bathrobe, stabbing out several half-smoked cigarettes at once. I've already called Big E and whispered "We're gonna get through this" like Pacino talking to his lover in Dog Day Afternoon. Why do you ask?

Worried that the Dudleys are getting a 2014 New Age Outlaws style title win soon.

Great thread that speaks to a lot of issues. It'll be cool to look back in five years to see how correct/wrong the predictions are. Part-time legends five years from now: Cena, of course. His movie career may take him off the main roster, but he’s such a company man that he’ll work as much as possible. Punk (currently 36) will be back within five years and treated like a bigger star than ever. HHH/Steph are here to stay and will be staples on television for not just the next five years, but long after. They won't stay as long as Vince did, but who knows what the state of the company/TV will be 5, 10, 20 years from now? In five years Brock will still be younger than guys like Jericho and Big Show are now. Brock could do 10 more years at this rate and retire as a bigger legend than Taker and the like. By 2020, Orton will be only 40. If he doesn't break down (a big if), Big Show will in five years still be younger than Kane and Taker are now. I’m always interested in comparing guys by their age, but someone like Kane or R-Truth is more likely to be there in five years than most of the NXT roster. It's more the genetic lottery of whose body holds up best. Flair’s last match was at 63 and he’ll probably have at least one more. HBK retired at 45, Foley at 48, Booker at 47, JBL at 42, Edge at 37. Late-40s seems to be the breaking point even for relatively healthy guys. Here’s the roster, from oldest to youngest: Sting (56), Undertaker (50), Kane (48), Goldust (46), Triple H (46), The Dudleys (44), Chris Jericho (44), Mark Henry (44), R-Truth (43), The Rock (43), Big Show (43), Christian (41), Brock Lesnar (38), John Cena (38), Sin Cara (38), Titus O’Neil (38), Sheamus (37), Tamina (37), Adam Rose (36), Curtis Axel (35), Darren Young (35), Dolph Ziggler (35), Konnor (35), Luke Harper (35), Randy Orton (35), Wade Barrett (35), Tyson Kidd (35), Rosa Mendes (35), Cesaro (34), Daniel Bryan (34), Fandango (34), Kofi Kingston (34), The Miz (34), Viktor (34), Torito (33), Erick Rowan (33), Fernando (33), Jack Swagger (33), Sandow (33), Ryback (33), Natalya (33), Diego (32), Heath Slater (32), Braun Stowman (31), Kevin Owens (31), The Bellas (31), Summer Rae (31), The Usos (30), Roman Reigns (30), Cody Rhodes (30), Zack Ryder (30), Eva Marie (30), Lana (30), Big E (29), Dean Ambrose (29), Hornswaggle (29), Neville (29), Rusev (29), Seth Rollins (29), Alicia Fox (29), Charlotte (29), Bray Wyatt (28), Kalisto (28), Xavier Woods (28), Becky Lynch (28), Cameron (27), Naomi (27), Emma (26), Bo Dallas (25), Paige (23), Sasha Banks (23). And NXT: Rhyno (39), Samoa Joe (36), Brian Kendrick (36), Alex Riley (34), Finn Balor (34), Hideo Itami (34), Tye Dillinger (34), Simon Gotch (32), Blue Pants (32), Sami Zayn (31), Sylvester Lefort (31), Baron Corbin (30), Chad Gable (29), Big Cass (29), Mojo Rawley (29), Enzo (28), Apollo Crews (28), Aiden English (27), Blake (27), Bull Dempsey (27), Solomon Crowe (27), Tyler Breeze (27), Carmella (27), Jason Jordan (26), Murphy (26), Bayley (26), Dana Brooke (26), Alexa Bliss (24). Of the guys currently over 40, only ones I’d expect to still be working in five years are HHH, maybe Rock, and maybe Jericho. All three in the “one match every 1-3 years” mode. Sting, Taker, Goldust, Kane, Dudleys, Henry, and Truth all retire by 2020. Sting has held up very well, but I would be surprised if he lasts longer than Mania 33 in 2017. For all the talk about how WWE isn’t pushing young talent, look who they are pushing. Reigns, Rollins, Rusev, Ambrose, Wyatt, Becky, Crews, Xavier, and Paige are among the youngest people in the company. They could all be there for 20 more years if they stay healthy. Sasha is literally the youngest worker they have right now, and people are calling her the 2015 MVP who stole the show on Summerslam weekend. It’s a little deceptive to say “The old guys are on top for too long” when the tide seems to be turning. Deceptively old workers: Sin Cara, Titus, Sheamus, Tamina, Adam Rose, Axel, Darren Young, the Ascension. I could see any/all of these guys being gone five years from now. Takeaway from this is that if you’re currently in NXT and you’re over 30 (as Sheamus, Axel, and the PTP were when made the main roster), you may have a shorter future than expected. In particular this applies to Balor, Joe, and KENTA. There’s a very limited window for them to be main eventers. In Balor’s case I think it happens within the next five years. Probably not for Joe or Itami. Zayn is right on the border, but I worry that with his injuries he'll be Danielson part deux and won’t make it to the level he could have achieved if healthier. Balor and Bryan are the same age, which tells you how quickly injuries can change a career, and how being "new" to the company is relative. Deceptively young workers: Sasha, Bo Dallas, Emma, Neville, Xavier Woods, Bray, Rollins, Ambrose, Cody Rhodes, Ryder, Big E, Owens. This strikes me as really good news and an important plus for the company. Many of the hottest acts in WWE are under 30. The caveat being that some of these guys already feel like they’ve been around forever already, but there's still plenty of time for even someone like Cody or Ryder to have a second life higher on the card. It's amazing to realize that Cody has been on the main roster since he was 22. You look at guys like Cody, Kofi, Bray, Dallas, or Rollins and realize that if everything stays as is with the status quo, they could easily have 25 year careers working for the same company the whole time. Undertaker's been there that long already. It seems unprecedented in wrestling. Even guys like Flair or Sting didn't nearly work that amount of time in one place. Or genuine competition comes along in five years and flips the script. Current NXT sensations will have brighter careers than a lot of the mid-30s midcarders currently struggling on the main roster. History books will deem those who came into WWE between 2006-2012 something of a lost generation. Compare the prospects of Sasha, Gable, Jordan, Bliss, Bayley, Enzo/Cass, Carmella, and Breeze (all 24-27) to the Colons, Sandow, Swagger, Ryback, Ziggler, Ascension, Barrett, Rosa, Rose, Tamina (all 33-37). When you look at the mid-30s group, they’re the people who came up 10 years ago at a time when WWE developmental was falling apart, and their careers clearly suffered for it. Guys like Barrett, Sheamus, Ziggler, and Danielson could have been major players as early as 2005, at a time when they could have been presented as equals to Cena and Orton in a "next generation." There are a lot of indie guys who we think of as having been around forever, but are in fact quite young. Jack Evans (33), Roderick Strong (32), Rocky Romero (32), TJ Perkins (30), the Briscoes (29 and 31), Elgin (28), Angelico (28), Rhett Titus (27), Ricochet (26). I could even see the Hardys and AJ Styles getting runs. Have to believe the Briscoes will get at least an NXT deal in the next 2-3 years (if they want it, which has always been the question). Biff Busick is 29, but rumored to be heading for NXT. Not sure how old Thatcher is, but they should sign him regardless. Galloway's only 29 if they want him again. Even Chris Masters is only 32. Pretty much all of the big stars in ROH/PWG/Evolve/TNA are young enough to be signed. The only ones who I'd say are too old would be Angle (46), Daniels (45), Abyss (41), Lashley (39), Ken Anderson (39), Storm (38), Roode (38), maybe Styles (38), Bobby Fish (38), Del Rio (38), Kaz (38), and Aries (37). John Morrison is 35 and I doubt they have any interest. A lot of those guys who seem off the table are where they are due to bad relations with WWE, having the taint of TNA, and being mediocre to begin with.

I love him, but as of now he feels more like a top 200 guy. Would want to see more of his Montreal, Georgia, Florida, and Mid-Atlantic runs to fairly judge. Meltzer always credits him as being one of the hottest heels of the 70s, drawing nuclear reactions for the gimmick and his great portrayal of it. The Bruno win is legendary, but I just don't know what his great matches are outside of the JCP tag stuff.

While he has zero business being nominated, I do feel like he's actually had a very good year in ring. The Rumble 3-way, his work with Orton and Cena, and I'm actually interested to see what he can do with Sting. Again, no one should vote for him. But I think he sometimes gets a bad rap on this board and elsewhere as being some easily flung ballerina, yet I find myself liking his performances more often than not. And while doing Phoenix Splashes aren't the best way to get booed, I do enjoy his rat-faced character. Whiny pretty boy heel still counts as a heel. Summerslam in particular was a ton of fun as a rudo in white.

In addition to the matches above, I'd add the readily available one against Lorenzo Parente from St. Louis in '62. The interview segment at the end is awesome too. O'Connor - particular in his younger days - seems like an older candidate who more modern-minded voters could get into. Lots of highspots in his finishes, and while he's still pretty mat-based, it's really fast paced stuff that looks as tenacious as the powerbomb-on-the-apron junk of today. If you look like you might actually win a match with your headlock or a headscissors, you're doing it right.

Really liked him as the Pure champion, and he was actually pretty adept at working face/heel turns. Last match of his that I saw live was Nigel vs. KENTA in March '09, which may be the most tedious main event I've ever attended. It left an impression - likely unfair - in my head that once put in the company's ace role he became too injury-laden to work at the level that he once had, and that when putting a match together he was using long rest holds at the wrong times. But he'd suffered such a bad arm injury the night before that he really shouldn't have even been out there. Not a top 100 guy for me - don't like the character or matches enough - but he had great stuff with Danielson, Joe, Hero, Morishima.

Would have Cena, Sasha, Cesaro, Reigns, Lesnar, Rollins, Sheamus, Rusev, Harper, and maybe even Big E, Bayley and Wyatt ahead of him right now. The idea that Owens isn't even one of the ten best workers in the company right now sounds insane, but (I think?) I stand by it. I also think he's a joke in an All Time 100, but to each their own. In general I'm finding a lot of the "currently working/in their prime" candidates to be really surprising if not outright baffling. It may be unfair to present-day workers, but I just find it difficult to judge them in context. And I do have a pretty strong bias against the general state of wrestling today compared to what it was at every other time in history. Almost everyone working today is a victim of current affairs. If someone like Sheamus worked in JCP in the mid-80s, he'd stand such a better chance of making my list. Only guys still working on a regular basis who make my list are Liger, Akiyama, Cena, and all the lucha maestro types (Casas, Panther, Mysterio, Liger, Black Terry, Virus, Solar, etc.) And just to give Steen his due: he's a good talker who generally speaking seems to understand heat, which makes him an exception in today's scene. Saw him have two good matches in two days last week. Did not enjoy him in ROH at all. Haven't seen enough PWG to comment on him there, but what I've seen was better. Top 100 of 2015? Yes, but he isn't even at the top of that list, let alone all of wrestling history.

There are about four hundred guys from the 2000s alone who I vote for before Nakajima. A complete snooze in NOAH. It's not worth going match-for-match to break down why he sucked (though I sure did so over the years on DVDVR's Purotopia circa 2006-2011), but he feels like a fabrication that people bought into due to his age making him seem a prodigy, and the Sasaki-Hokuto adoption protege story getting play. In comparison to his peers: roughly as good as Go Shiozaki, another guy who has no business in a top 100. Worse than KENTA. About the same as Ippei Ota. Taiji Ishimori became a much better worker than him once he went roided heel. Worse than rookie year Atsushi Aoki. A lot worse than Makoto Hashi and SUWA. Not as entertaining as Milano Collection AT or rookie year Genba Hirayanagi. Better than Marufuji, but so's everyone.

Came in here to discuss something totally different: Emma winning the 4-way. From where I was sitting you couldn't tell that it was a botch, and in fact looked like smart booking. Charlotte and Lynch don't need the win as they won't be there, and Brooke doesn't yet seem at that level. Even if it was an accident, I would definitely go with Emma as Bayley's first challenger. She's pretty much the fallen hero version of Bayley: a wacky childlike savant-turned-smug, shoplifting runaway.

Just to speak for Summerslam: that crowd sure didn't suck when New Day were out there. Or Cena and Rollins. Or Brock and Taker. They cheered what they'd been made to care about on what was always presented as a two-match show. The women's match seemed like the low point in crowd interest, esp. given that it was long and not that good. That certainly hurt Owens-Cesaro. But you could easily argue that people were burnt out after Cena-Rollins, and that they tuned out during the women for that reason. The flaw to me wasn't match order: it's that you can't do a ten match, four hour show in which eight out of the ten matches have no build, no storyline, and no ramifications going forward.

David Von Erich vs. Mark Lewin (1979) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iLvPhLzfU8 Good four minute brawl largely based on punching each other in the face. I was always led to believe Lewin wasn't a good worker, but that might have just been that he had a formula and/or short brawls. But both of these guys looked pretty violent, and this is the sort of thing that I'd pay to see brought back for a longer go-around the following week.

Have not seen the match in question, or any other AWA match where it looked like a riot was eminent. Look: they drew great houses. That's not low-rent. I'm talking about stuff like having terrible announcers, production that feels way behind that of WWF/NWA/Japan of the time, and the palest roster in history, often filled out by a mix of lumbering oafs and solid workers who I find lacking in charisma. Even Watts and Memphis on limited budgets produced more interesting TV. Most of what I have seen is from ESPN, and that Showboat stuff often felt really tacky. But I'm also someone who would rather be shot out of a cannon than enter the average casino, so your mileage may vary.

Last great Kobashi match is what, Ogawa in '03 or Akiyama in '04, depending on how you felt about the latter's barrage of headdrops? Or '05 tag with Akiyama/Tenryu with Go?

I think he was only on for the one about Patriotism, but my memory was that he told super long, boring stories that went nowhere and made some awful non-jokes. I'm sure other people would look at it and see nothing wrong with it, but he came off as a dude you desperately wouldn't want to get stuck talking to at a party. Even at his career peaks I found him void of charisma, with the exception of a few of the most off the wall sympathizer promos. I was looking at this thread last night and realized that I definitely have a stigma against AWA guys who aren't Bockwinkel. It always felt like a dull, low-rent promotion that made great workers less interesting. I love something like the Bockwinkel-Hennig broadway or Hennig-Hansen, but almost everything I've seen (including the top matches on the DVDVR set) feel like they would have been worlds better anywhere else.

The tweets from Alex Greenfield and others re: the crowd chants has a bunch of people saying that Vince/Dunn are intentionally botching this women's push so that it'll go away. While it sure looks that way, as it's all been atrocious thus far - it does bring to mind examples like Lita, Trish, early Mickie, etc. Not that they were always portrayed as feminist icons or great role models, but they got real pushes and one had the sense that they were liked by the company and viewed as talents/semi-stars. Did they get better treatment because it was thought they were hotter and more about sex appeal? I could definitely see Vince turning 70 today, realizing the grapefruits have shrunk to Grape Nuts, and deciding that Nikki's the only one of these broads that he'd still push Linda down a flight of stairs to be with.

I could not remember even one of Cena's four tag title wins. Not the match, not the partner, not the opponent, not even the general time period. And I was watching the shows weekly during all of them.

The reaction in the building to the end of the show wasn’t even one of booing or vitriol. You didn’t even hear much discussion of it as people left. Everyone just kind of waited awhile to see if anything else would happen. Then, when nothing did, the crowd filed out quietly. Lots of tired kids and parents after a four hour (or 3.5ish) show. Brock looks huge in person. The general mass and wing span on the dude feels more akin to a bear than a human. Also worth noting that this is the second time in a month where Taker has desperately tried to overpower Lesnar by cheapshotting him in the balls. Ric Flair circa 2000 would have considered those to be one toke over the line. Match was entertaining until the lame finish, but at no point was it as over in the building as Rollins was. People loved him, hated Cena, and were elated to see someone defeat Big Match John. Almost surprised that people are talking more about Brock/Taker here than about what seemed like an enormous reaction to Rollins. Stewart living out some Andy Kaufman fantasy will be interesting. Needless to say, the ticket to NXT was a fraction of the price and vastly more entertaining. Vote with your wallet, kids. Ten biggest reactions of the weekend: Bayley’s title win Rollins’ title win Sasha’s Escalade Cena’s entrance, albeit a maelstrom of boos Enzo and Cass’ entrance kicking off Takeover New Day’s title win New Day’s rap Taker’s entrance Brock’s entrance The announcement and arrival of Blue Pants

All you have to do is Bolieve. Like it or not, Owens gets a much bigger reaction than Cesaro. Felt like they were really trying to showcase them as the 2015 "Helmsley Classic" final. Crowd was fatigued after three plus hours, but Owens needed a win and the match was solid. Almost would have preferred a less decisive finish as neither guy should lose right now. Interesting how little talking there's been on this show. Practically ten straight matches, for better or worse.

Crowd looooooved Rollins. I'm not listening to the announcers, but from the audience response you would think he was the second coming of Savage or Steamboat. Really odd face-heel dynamic, but up until the Stewart interference the match was a ton of fun. I don't get the booking, but the action stole the show. "Thank you Stewart" chants from the fans during the interlude post-match.

Why wasn't this for the tag titles? Best match of the night, but wow, this got little reaction live. Smart work from the heels: in particular loved Harper stepping on his opponent whenever he needed to walk over to Bray. Almost thought Dean or Roman was turning just from their weird mugging facial reactions toward the end of the match. Crowd has not cared about anything but New Day yet, and pales in comparison to the Takeover audience this far. To be fair: this show hasn't given them much to work with, and they came unglued for Cena.