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Everything posted by Parties
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While I'd echo the love for much of what's been posted, this is instinctively the match I thought of if someone's asking, "Show me what wrestling can be." There are lucha matches that perhaps better answer that question, but this is ten minutes long and requires no real knowledge of storyline or context. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gHtgUsXEm4
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the funny thing is that the weeks that I find myself thinking "this show is pretty decent" always end up having the worst ratings lol. There was a different recent RAW that was really fun on a night when HHH/Steph weren't there - I had to dig back through results to find it, but it was the May 4th show from Montreal that had Cena-Zayn I, lots of New Day stuff, Sheamus/Barrett tagging, Fandango appearance, good Rusev-Lana segment, etc. I even wrote here that night that I'll be curious to see the rating of an Authority-free show. It did the lowest non-holiday non-football viewership since 1997. This week's number was even worse. I've become a broken record on this topic, but: I do think it's a misnomer to say that these ratings plunges = fans wanting all Authority all the time. Casual viewers flipping channels want to see stars and exciting TV, and view the McMahons as familiar faces from "back when wrestling was good". They likewise aren't eager to watch three bland hours just to learn more about these young whippersnappers Rogan Reams and Brave Whitney.
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I only saw much of him in that late indie IWA-MS/XCW run with Todd Morton, Chris Michaels, Lawler, etc. I didn't like him as a WCW jobber, but it's true that his earlier Memphis and PR stuff is said to be very good. Incidentally, Todd Morton is another guy I would definitely have ahead of Strong, but it's easy to play the game of "Indie heel was underrated".
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Definitely doesn't place in a top 100 of all-time. He's having a tremendous run right now, but even just when compared to "guys who were previously just OK but then suddenly had tremendous late career runs where they suddenly were among the best American workers of the moment", I'd still have him behind Mark Henry, Christian, DDP, Jamie Noble, Bull Pain. Plus overseas guys like Kanemoto, Tamon Honda, and like 900 luchadors.
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Not sure I'd call them Top 25 all-time, but I will add that I don't think longevity is as important for tag teams as it is for singles. (And honestly I don't value it much for singles either.) Too many of the best tag matches happened with either short-lived teams, or teams that never really had runs at the top of their division, let alone their company or era. There are exceptions (teams like the Funks, Road Warriors, Villanos, and Sheepherders all improve their standing by being great for long stretches), but tag wrestling is kind of a flukey thing in terms of who gets paired up and for long. Most of the long-term legendary teams that stayed together for nearly their whole careers are too old to have much footage anyway.
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Just as an aside: I had to actually type out the word "Slammiversary" to realize what a ridiculous and terrible name that is for a show. Which is true every wrestling show ever, but wow. Picture yourself saying the word "Slammiversary" to a friend in casual conversation. "I watched True Detective. Rachel McAdams comes off less crazy if you're blunted." "Not me, friend. I opted for TNA's Slammiversary." Watched Aries-Richards as I hadn't seen either guy work in years. Started off mediocre, but ended up with a really good finishing stretch. Aries is a competent heel, but heat is such a lost art in wrestling today that we give guys way too much credit for being competent heels. I did like his dazed moment of looking to tag his partner in a singles match. Richards looked way better than he has in the past, by virtue of slowing down, working a genuine control segment, selling like an actual babyface, and waiting until his big moves mattered. All new tricks for him: kudos. Both guys visibly called spots, but that's become such a common critique of everyone in the HD era that it's certainly not exclusive to them. Also felt like a match where the six-sided ring was an obstacle for the camera crew. Or maybe TNA's camera crew has just gotten really lousy? Bad finish, but again, it's a particular variety of bad finish that happens to be a constant in 2015 wrestling. The Dirty Heels t-shirt might be the most low-rent wrestling merch I've ever seen. If this was Aries' last TNA match, he gave them more than they deserve in a surprisingly good match. Still, he looked like a guy trying to get his signature moves in as quickly as possible before leaving this company on the last chopper out of Hanoi.
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Wait, for real? Is it gospel around here that they sucked for as a team for some reason? Or is just the name? I'm totally baffled, as it seems like two awesome dudes who destroyed other dudes. Even if not all of their matches were gems, they had tons of great stuff. I actually nominated them thinking they probably are a top 25 team, one I'd be way more likely to vote for than almost any American team of the 90s/2000s. I'm totally confused by a world in which Demolition are shoo-ins while these guys are laughed out of competition. Microscope here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31052-miracle-violence-connection/?hl=miracle
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The three-way dance main event for AAW's world title is worth watching. Josh Alexander botched a couple things, but they were minor mishaps and there were other things he did well. Nice performance from Kingston as the defending champ selling the hell out of an injury. But the story here might be Samoa Joe, who looked worlds better here than he did in his NXT match with Owens. Kind of a return to form from him. Interesting stuff, and the look and presentation of the company is all quite legit, even compared to ROH and Evolve.
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Dave has mentioned several times that when Triple H and Steph aren't on TV the ratings plummet. Over the past 2 years they have conditioned their audience that if those two aren't involved the show is not important so you can skip it. I mean their segments are pushed over Cena's. They are presented as the biggest stars in the company for sure. Wondering if Bonnie Hammer and USA don't have something to do with that. I didn't like it back in December when they came back so soon but the fact is they are going nowhere. Especially if they have big matches at mania next year I've read Meltzer report the same thing, which is what I was referring to in calling it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Hammer/USA wanting it that way isn't a bad theory, but that's oblivious corporate self-love at its worst, and a huge issue going forward. Sek’s NWO comparison is apt. The great test of HHH’s executive run at the top will not be whether he can do what Vince did. It’s already been done. His - and Stephanie’s - test will be whether they have the self-awareness to learn from history (Dusty, Nash, Hogan, Verne, Vince at his most indulgent) and concede that booking themselves ahead of their roster isn’t a security measure. It’s a death wish. And while the point about people putting their money elsewhere during December holidays is fair, I still think it's a rationalization of lousy booking. The idea that you simply can't put on a good show in between Survivor Series and Royal Rumble is such lazy, conditioned thinking. Yet you hear it from anonymous WWE writers and producers all the time: this idea that they tank half of their shows and aren't expected to come up with anything good, because Mania is the only show that matters. It's absurd. The roster they have is strong enough to fill out 3-4 distinct divisions (Heavyweight/IC/US/Tag), each of which should be able to headline a PPV on the strengths of new talent. If a team of 20 writers are only capable of producing about one and a half storylines per year - most of which suck - they should be fired. If Vince is stubbornly resistant, he should be Old Yellered. If these failures are apparent to viewers of the show, I can only imagine how frustrated the staff who are trying their best must be. Watch even a mediocre UFC show and you'll see a hundred easy ways in which WWE could improve. None of which are "Dana and Lorenzo cut 20 minute promos, then book Johny Hendricks to job in a handicap match against Matt Hughes and Frank Trigg." (Sorry if this is a derailing of weekly TV conversation. For the sake of topicality and sanity, I should probably just start a thread called "Elevated Blood Pressure from McMahon Family Incompetence" and keep such rants to that location. Or just make use of the "HHH is a Douche" thread.)
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Incredible how bad the Authority angle has gotten. Toxic stuff that’s killing the whole vibe of the show. Worse now that it was when they were sabotaging Bryan. Unfortunately, they should now re-do what they already did last year: book a Survivor Series 5-on-5 main event that disbands the Authority and ends the year on an uplifting babyface win. (I know you still have TLC in Dec, but that show is poorly mistimed every year, and needs to be rebranded into something that feels like a year-ender to build toward the Rumble. December doesn’t have to be Starrcade. Doesn’t need to be the biggest show of the year. But an arbitrary pile of shitty weapons matches that never get over is a bizarre use of that space on the calendar.) The setup last year to Ziggler being the surprise hero to pull it out was good, and would have worked if Steph and Hunter had gone away for even just three months until it was time to build the Sting match. At this point I don’t even get why they want to be on TV for anything besides the annual WM build, aside from this ridiculous self-fulfilling prophecy of “ratings go up when the only two recognizable people left from the casual fan Attitude Era are onscreen, therefore these two old buffoons should be booked as 10x bigger stars than anyone on the roster.” But imagine if Survivor Series ended with Ambrose finally pinning Rollins and getting his big anti-establishment win, while the world title becomes Lesnar-Reigns II at either SS or TLC.
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The context of the Combs thing was really clear from the story being told. She wasn’t saying, “These women should have bigger tits.” She was saying that she came into the business in a time and place in which her bookers expected women to have a certain bust, and was pleasantly surprised that things have changed. Combs wasn’t regressively arguing against the Crush Girls’ bodies. She was saying - from the perspective of someone who actually lived through and endured sexism - that she was impressed that wrestling had taken a cultural step forward. If you don’t find the story funny, fine. I don’t think it’s brilliant or hilarious, but to suggest that the story is sexist (or that Combs was saying something offensive because she’s old) is a misread of the situation. In fact, one could argue that misread itself is a bit ageist against her, in implying that she’s out of touch because she’s old, and equating her with the aforementioned “Off Their Rockers” Betty White-style caricature. But by the same token, I can understand that it comes from a place of good intentions, and the nature of hearing a story secondhand (or third or fourthhand). Re: the gender pay gap percentages that are often thrown around - it’s more complex than simply saying “70 percent”. Those figures have been discredited in different studies over the years (most would say it’s more like 85-90%, and that it’s entirely circumstantial to every unique person and job, depending on the context). Even in instances where you’re comparing a man and woman with the same role and qualifications (an imaginary hypothetical that is almost impossible to create in real life), you still have to account for childcare options, racism, systemic discrimination of inadequate family-leave policies, and women stereotypically serving as the caretakers in their home/family at large. It isn’t so much that women are being paid less to do the same work, as it is that prejudices keep them from ever having the opportunity to do what could be called “the same work.”
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Is TNA the worst wrestling promotion in history?
Parties replied to Loss's topic in Megathread archive
Meltzer's spoiler report of this most recent set of horrific tapings is pretty funny stuff, especially if you were a fan of his Nitro and Thunder recaps back in the day. I don't think it'll ruin the show for anyone to share this one gem: -
As bad as the last two months have been for deaths, I have to imagine it's been a particular heavy string for Cornette himself. Ron Wright, Tommy Rogers, Dusty, and Landell, all within eight weeks.
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Bullet Club-Kingdom was what the crowd was most excited about, even moreso than the main event. I don't watch a ton of New Japan, so I was really surprised by how over Styles and in particular the Bucks were. Huge reactions to their NWO/DX mimicry shtick. Match was a shameless spotfest with a lot of ridiculous excess. And yes, the Maria spot was totally unnecessary. None of it should have worked, and yet as a live over-the-top spectacle for a rabid crowd, it was incredibly entertaining. I've enjoyed Lethal's last few months, so I'm up for him as the top star going forward. That finisher's gotta go, but he worked hard and it did have the feel of a real coronation. The promo afterwards and tone of the match seemed like they're trying to make him into their Ric Flair of the moment - or at least their Shane Douglas - as old school athletic heel champion who can win both on his own or with his interference. He cut a very tweener promo that walked that line of praising Briscoe and the company, while declaring himself the best thing in it. Otherwise: * Show opened w/ an awesome hype video for Jay-Jay that I assume they played to start the PPV as well. * Mark's back was visibly red and bruised after that flat back bump to the floor. Without a doubt the craziest bump of the night, and it happened two mins into the show. * Loud "Blowjob Whitmer" chants during the Decade match. * Elgin is unbelievably bad, and I can't believe he bitched his way into the G1. For those people who think the way to get genuine heel heat from smarks is to wrestle badly and look repugnant, this guy is your poster child. * Moose's football entrance was phenomenal.
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Preshow: 4-way between Cheeseburger/Romantic Touch/Will Ferrara/Jay Diesel. "Bootista" chants for Diesel. Romantic Touch is entertaining, if a bit one note. Cheeseburger is the only one who knows how to sell. He won with with a bridging pin on Touch. Cheeseburger's strikes suck, but that's true of everyone in the match, and at least he's over with the crowd. After his win, a fan gave him a Quarter Pounder that he consumed to roaring cheers.
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Obligatory opening mat work feels a bit loose, but at least they were quick on their feet and went into more strike and suplex-based stuff quickly. Some nice kicks and fishhooking from O’Reilly. He also hits a really nice scoop suplex about halfway through this (Kushida’s brain buster on the apron is nice as well). There’s some spotty stuff: O’Reilly and Kushida taking turns doing Ambrose’s stupid fall through the ropes before lariating opponent is just wildly dumb. But thanks largely to a very good closing stretch kept largely on the mat, this is the coolest BOSJ final I can recall in some time. I agree that the crowd and announcers getting passionate helped this.
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Man, the complete non-existence of Sami Callahan for the last two years has been such a squandered opportunity. Even if they want him to be a jobber, he could be the best jobber they've ever had.
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NXT 6/17: Charlotte-Cassidy squash was OK. Not totally sold on Charlotte as a worker, but her shtick works well in a competitive squash context. She's got a moveset, she's got the athletics: would like to see her put in less smug clapping and more fiery hate, but she's learning and she's done well considering how little time she's actually been working, especially at this high a level, with that high a learning curve, under that pressure. Owens-Joe was... interesting? Not a great match, but it feels lame to fault them for having a merely good one. I had high expectations, but it's true that Joe hasn't been at peak Joeness for at least 7 years, and we shouldn't have expected a renaissance just because he escaped TNA. Agree that his strikes were lacking, given that he built his name on being able to nearly match Kobashi's power chop for chop. If anything it was kind of a sad match in that you can't help wonder what this opportunity could have been even 2-3 years ago. You could see especially in the brawling at the end that Joe looks road worn. At 36, he's younger than Cena, same age as Punk, and not far off from Chris Hero, or even Danielson and Cesaro. Yet he's far more haggard than all of them. Thought Owens sold well and worked hard – my only crit would be that I don't like him screaming full sentences of trash talk in the middle of a match. Just feels excessive, as if he's hitting pause to cut a promo. SD 6/18 : Paige-Bellas feud is horrible. Divas are a division of nothing but heels (Paige included), and lousy ones at that. Bo Dallas remains a great promo, but wow: they have no faith in him at all. They've killed Lana's heat. At this point they should just put her back with Rusev the moment he's healed up. Forget this happened, lay out Ziggler, move on. If they're gonna do this much RAW recapping on this show, they should do fewer matches and make them longer. Cesaro-Owens had solid moments, but it wasn't nearly as phenomenal as was suggested online. People were making it out to be some spectacular 20 minute war. It was a fairly conventional 7 minute TV match. But Cesaro adopting Bryan's tope into the boards is pretty crazy, and his feats of strength are always fun to watch. You can say that Sheamus isn't over, but he was really good in that main event tag. One of my 2 or 3 favorite in-ring guys they have right now, or at least in the mix with Reigns. Those should be awesome matches when they finally feud: looked great when paired together. Hopefully they hold it off, but would not surprise me to see them work each other on TV next week. My new strategy is to pretend that Kane doesn't exist. To that end: great handicap 2-on-1 showing from Sheamus, overcoming the odds! Horrible finish to the match, but a badass performance.
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Not someone I would put in a top 100, but he was awesome. I just watched some of his UWFi stuff for the first time (had no idea he worked there) and he's very good as a guy who can credibly work that style while also clearly serving as hotheaded enhancement talent, frantically slapping opponents in the head to convey that he's in over his head. While none of them could be called great singles, having good matches with Sano, Sakuraba, and Kitahara can only help his case. I love the FBI and wouldn't have had it any other way, but he feels like a guy whose career and legacy would have benefited a lot from getting hired by mid-90s WCW. Could have been a very apt opponent for Eddy/Benoit/Malenko/Saturn/Jericho. There are other times where he's presented as more of an equal in that run: beating Daijiro Matsui, even teaming with Takada. Billy Robinson trainee who was unbelievably fast on the mat and quick on his feet. Great jabs too. Really had the presence of an old-school boxer, such that it's all the more interesting than he was able to tweak what he was into a comedy persona.
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I’m going to tomorrow’s show. Predictions: Briscoe vs. Lethal [Title vs. Title]: I don’t get why they’re doing this match. If Briscoe wins, you’ve made your top heel look bad. Regardless of who wins, you’re losing your secondary champion until the point at which the winner drops one of the belts. It's not a unification, so I could it see it being a deal where Moose/Elgin/Strong soon beats whoever walks out of this World champ. Which further begs the question of why they’re doing it. For that reason I suspect they’ll do some weird finish. Maybe even a time limit draw. But just to pick someone, I’ll say that Lethal cheats to win both titles, but is beaten by Moose soon. The Addiction vs. reDRagon [Tag Titles]: I don’t like either team, but reDRagon’s the better option. No idea why the Addiction are even champs, and O’Reilly has a lot of momentum right now. Strong vs. Moose vs. Elgin [#1 Contender’s Match]: If Briscoe wins the main event, it’ll be one of the heels. But if I’m picking Lethal, I also have to pick Moose. He’s the best choice if you wanna strap a rocket to someone new. Strong is by far the best worker of the three right now. I fear they’re pick Elgin, but I loathe him so much that I refuse to even predict his win. Kingdom (Cole/Bennett/Taven) vs. Bullet Club (Styles/Young Bucks): Unless there’s some weird New Japan power play, I see no reason for the Kingdom to win. They’re IWGP champs, and a loss here is more interesting booking. Sydal/ACH vs. Page/Whitmer: I have lots of babyfaces winning on this show, and from TV booking it seems like they want to keep the Decade strong. Sydal/ACH are such a bland non-team that I don’t see why they should win. Dijak vs. Mark Briscoe: Don’t really care, but feels like they want to push Dijak and build further heat between Briscoes and House of Truth. Dalton vs. Silas: Probably the most intriguing match on this show, if not second to the main event. Castle is the kind of gimmick where they seem to think they can beat him all the time, and Silas is coming off a TV loss against Watanabe. But: maybe because it’s going to be a very smarky pro-Dalton NYC crowd, I think he pulls it off as Silas’ midcard woes continue. War Machine vs. C&C Wrestle Factory: I would hope that War Machine wins a monstrous four-minute squash. I think it’ll be competitive, but War Machine should be booked as 1987 Road Warriors right now.
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I think after this past Sunday, you could replace Orton, Lashley, or Big Show with Owens part deux. The 20 minute Cena-Cesaro singles from RAW (Feb 2014) could be on a top 10 as well. Cena-Punk (2/25/13, Winner Gets Mania Title Shot Against The Rock) from RAW could be there too.
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Heart says Hash, head says Misawa. And really I've got a lot of heart for Misawa too. Of the four King's Road pillars (or five including Akiyama), Misawa's work holds up the best today. (I know that distinction often goes to Kawada, but I like Misawa a lot more than Kawada. Misawa didn't puss around in HUSTLE for years. But to be fair, Kawada has U-Style and clipped MUGA footage that shows he still knew how to be incredible to the bitter end.) If anything Misawa's currently underrated, as we take him for granted. Even in his unheralded matches, there is always something newly entertaining that I appreciate. And not in some dry, formulaic "Technical excellence, Joseph Campbell's power of myth at its finest" way. I mean in a visceral "He just kicked that guy straight in the teeth, and you could hear foot hit face" kind of way. Or in the case of latter Misawa: "That selling looks really good because this guy no longer has orbital bones." That said, I need to go back and watch more Hashimoto. There's a lot of 90s New Japan greatness that I've missed just because it's less heralded than AJ of same era.
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What we don't acknowledge in these types of debates is that context matters in the moment. That move was better because it was Cena doing it. It wouldn't be as effective if some indie scrub hit it in a meaningless match. It was horrible when Petey Williams did his variation of it, because in the context of all the other horrible stuff that Petey Williams did, it was preposterous. Cena is a phenomenal worker. Which means that when he tries something new, in a wildly surprising context, we're more apt to give him the benefit of the doubt. That's not hypocrisy. That's acknowledging the amazing thirteen year career the guy's had, and enjoying the moment because of that context: on a WWE pseudo-PPV, in a highly anticipated match against a major league opponent with huge potential. Ric Flair bleeding buckets against Big Show in ECW was better than CZW Idiot X bleeding the same buckets. Vader powerbombing Foley on the floor is not the same thing as Nash lazily hitting his Jacknife. If I botch myself? Very well then, I botch myself. Legends get away with stuff that failures don't get away with. If you think that's unfair, welcome to Western Civilization.
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Since the formation of the Authority at Summerslam 2013, I can think of three babyface victories that mattered. Bryan winning the title at Mania (undone by mysterious crypto-injury #1), the Shield beating Evolution two straight in a feud that seemed to end largely because Batista left, and Bryan winning the IC title at Mania (undone by mysterious crypto-injury #2). You can maybe add Cena's US title win to that list too (but definitely not his 2014 World title win at MITB). Coming up on two years and counting of the Authority as top heels.
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Of all the things I don't like about the accelerated booking of 2015, the worst is that you see top babyfaces fail so much more often. For all of the positives of HHH running things, you also have to contend with his weird belief that any and all important matches should be won by heels.