Laz

Let's add new titles when hype over the product is at its lowest. Hurray!

I miss Nidia. Her and Noble were great together.

When the shit did Bray get the white boy dreads?

Yes. A talent that has earned the top spot of every other promotion he's worked for getting that opportunity to do it in the biggest company of his chosen field is the shits.

Do you think he's as famous as Molly Ringwald was in the 80s?Please note the part of my initial post that I left there. That is the best analogy for Taker's fame I can think of. Even if you're not into the F13 movies or horror at all, you still know what the hockey mask means, just as non-wrestling fans still at least know what a Tombstone is.

Which makes sense given the crowd shift (pro wrestling has become an accepted part of nerd culture, notorious for over analyzation and general snark). It's pretty hard to blame Meltzer for that when half the media surrounding [insert superhero movie here] is a tongue-in-cheek analysis of it. If you really want to pinpoint when the overall tone of fandom changed, there's probably going to be something meaty with the James Rolfe/Doug Walker growth in popularity. However, as has been said, good booking/writing can overcome a jaded and cynical audience.

To me, his legacy and relevance can be summed up in one question: Would a random person on the street know who the Undertaker is? The answer is going to be "yes" more than it will be "no." Part of this is the WWE Machine being as fantastic at branding/marketing as it is, true, but that same machine failed to make the Berzerker, Mantaur, and other equally silly gimmicks into household names. With that said, what separated him from all the others? His pitch perfect portrayal and overpowering presence. I feel Parv is selling him short. With Taker, it was less about match quality and memorable angles or rivalries and more about the aura in the moment. Even on the match quality front, if you step outside the PWO bubble you're going to find more people who feel he's had plenty of all-time classics, with expert witnesses like Mick Foley, Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, and more to praise his ability and his work ethic. The Undertaker is pro wrestling's Jason Voorhees. He's conceptually silly, never executed with perfection, and always a bit hokey, but you're not watching him to see an Oscar-worthy story unfold anyway. You're watching him to see a 6'10" zombie march out with spooky music to chokeslam and Tombstone some poor SOB.

Let's pretend that Parv is right and that the Dallas Takeover crowd had never seen anything Nakamura had done before that night. Nobody used YouTube, nobody even knew Japan had wrestling, and they didn't watch any of the hype videos on NXT leading to his debut. They heard his music, saw his entrance, and then watched the match with Zayn for however long before the "fight forever" chant started. What's more likely in this scenario: that a talented and extremely charismatic wrestler engaged in a very good match with a beloved hero got over by being talented and extremely charismatic, leading to an entire arena cheering for him in addition to their beloved hero, or a couple thousand assholes said to themselves, all at once, "let's show how meta we are" before they shouted their approval? Your argument, Parv, is flawed, as it ignores the trend of meta-based entertainment in pop culture at large. Please do quote more literature in defense of your personal disgust with the way current fans interact with their preferred entertainers in 2016.

Yes. Submissions and pin falls don't ever happen.

ROH 2005-2008 This was everything I wanted in a pro wrestling product. Even the smaller, poorly lit arenas due to it being an indy aided in the feeling that this was important to pro wrestling as a whole. There was talent of all styles, solid storylines and outright rivalries, and it was presented as sport first and entertainment later. It was a lot like... ECW 1998-1999 I'm only picking these years because I was late to the party, and I can absolutely agree that 1995-1997 was its creative peak, but the entire product still felt so different than the WWF or WCW and it coincided with my growing love for metal. It felt natural to me, and I can go back and watch those two years and take in some fine nostalgia.

I don't get it, either. Young rookie was beaten by a veteran and former World champion who's twice his size. Ospreay isn't hurt because if you're a fan of his you don't care, a veteran gets a decent payday, and it's likely been a work from very early on (meaning the build). I wouldn't mind seeing the match, either, because I want to see how Ospreay bumped for him. If he did even half as well as I think he should've (having seen him play the pinball for bigger guys before) then it's another feather in his cap for versatility.

He was great because he was awful by traditional standards, if that makes sense.

My enjoyment of Shinsuke Nakamura relies heavily on his opponent. I typically lose interest between when he gets to the ring and the finishing stretch.

Leg Lariat: like a lariat (clothesline with forward momentum), but with the leg. Calf Kick: like a running dropkick, but the calf is meant to connect with the face. Ryder's finish is a Leg Lariat. Zayn uses a Calf Kick. A Leg Lariat is meant to stun and transition quickly into a pin, a Calf Kick is meant for a quick stun to buy time.

Current favorite wrestler to watch: Shingo Takagi. I can recognize his flaws, but his strengths (intensity in move execution, charisma, overall feel) don't let me criticize too hard. Last fun match you saw: Strong Style Squad vs. Crusade For Change (Beyond's Americanrana 2016). Just a wild brawl that was paced perfectly and never dull. Wrestler you want to see more of: Matt Tremont Last live show attended (if applicable/different from last time you answered): Beyond Wrestling's Americanrana 2016 Match you're most looking forward to watching: Pretty much anything from BOLA Last fun interview/promo you saw: Joey Ryan's been killing it lately Last interesting thing you read about wrestling: The "Against the Grain" thread Last worthwhile podcast you listened to: VIP Lounge with Taz as a guest Most fun you've had watching wrestling lately: Americanrana 2016 Favorite recent post on this board: Parv showing is what "against the grain" opinions look like Favorite thing about the wrestling landscape in the past three months (if you live in the past, then go with your past three months of time-traveling): Raw being somewhat watchable again

Dory actually speaks Japanese well enough.

They're a bunch of grown adults who, overall, act like annoying children when paying fans criticize a part of the product they've spent their money on. "Insecure" feels like an understatement.

I just looked up a "top 10 moves of" video and saw it. Wow, that's awful.

...this is against the grain? Maybe I'm blinded by nostalgia, but Raven from 1996-1999 and his brief resurgence in 2002-2004 was absolutely great. Seconding the love for Disco Inferno and the calls of overrated for Misawa. Disco knew his role as a comedic dipshit midcarder and reveled in it, Misawa's all offense and is terrible (IMO) at selling. Masato Tanaka has been the most consistently good Japanese talent for nearly 20 years. I haven't seen every single match he's ever worked, but I also haven't ever seen a bad match with him in it.

The Corre. Take three of the original Nexus members that showed some real potential, add Ezekiel Jackson, and lose every single big match because heel groups without a McMahon can't get a push, and voila.

Road Dogg/K-Krush were a tag team just before they were both let go in 2000/2001. The team started when Roadie was hosting at WWF New York and Krush bested him in a freestyle, IIRC. Good times.

Doing End/ZSJ as a first round match is a little puzzling, but either the expected result (ZSJ win) gives us a great potential second round match or going against expectations (End winning) will add a good bit of suspense to the following nights. Great roster. I am sorely disappointed in myself for falling off the PWG wagon during their "rebuilding" stages in 2013/2014.

Then I retract my defense.

It just seems like a witch hunt to me. Here's a guy who's been called a freak of nature due to his strength and training regimen, one test out of eight is flagged (which he's provided a B-sample for), and the majority jump on to talk about it as if it were already proven fact. Am I saying he's 100% clean? No. Am I saying we shouldn't rush to conclusions when the evidence is actually in his favor? Yes. Get that "eye test" crap out of here. Some people on the gas don't look like it and vice versa.

Multiple passed tests. He was tested 8 times in the month up to the fight and only one popped a flag. I can't find the average number of tests each fighter undergoes, but 8/month means two tests a week. What substance would he have taken on the banned list that could disappear in 2-3 days? I'm not saying it's beyond the realm of possibility, but it doesn't seem as concrete as the comments in this thread would imply.