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Not something that's going to drastically alter his candidacy, but I always found it interesting that Charles' entire filmed career came after his thirtieth birthday. That's not the case anymore. A couple of months ago DJ Spectro put up a match with twenty-eight year old babyface Charles getting ready for a hair vs hair match against the future Jaque Mate. It's possible with the kind of people who come here that everyone's seen it already but just in case you haven't, here is (AFAIK) the earliest Emilio Charles match on video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t2v27sWLQM (He also has a video with Amenaza Elegante, which is pre-Octagon Octagon.)

My favorite Casas opponent is Dandy. ATG feud in 1992, and the 1996 reignition was good too. For Santo it's Espanto Jr. although I do think Casas did a better job of making it personal than Espanto did.

I always thought that my first post on the board was a defense of Atlantis in this thread, but I guess not. Maybe I dreamed the whole thing up. On one hand I'm more sympathetic to criticism of him now than I was five years ago. He's not the type to elevate a lesser worker (Atlantis vs Black Warrior comes to mind), and he doesn't often have the look of a truly masterful and natural performer, not in the way that someone like Negro Casas leaps off the screen. But when viewed within the context of his whole career, the breadth of his accomplishments swallows stuff like that right up. You could place his first great match in 1984 and his latest at some point in the last decade. There are wrestlers who ranked in the top fifty whose careers began and ended during that span. He has enough great matches and enough big matches to his name that it's hard to imagine he was just a passenger that whole time. Actually that 1984 match with Satanico is the only time I thought he legitimately needed to be carried. It's a bit like how you'll sometimes see Youtube comments saying Atlantis was protected and "inflado," which is essentially them saying that his stature is the result of his push. He has the masks of Villano III, Ultimo Guerrero, Mano Negra, Kung Fu, Sombra and Talisman. When a wrestler reaches living legend status, how they got there hardly matters. He finished #74 last time, with a high vote of #6. At that time he had main evented back to back anniversary shows with well received matches, so he was on people's minds at the time and might not do as well this time. On the other hand he was in between Chris Jericho and Hulk Hogan, so he could easily do better this time around too. #6 feels a little high to me (that high on the list, the fact that he wasn't really a fantastic actor or natural seller does matter), but he has the matches to rank there. Some Atlantis performances to watch: Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Ringo Mendoza vs Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala and Verdugo (flyer Atlantis) Atlantis, Rayo Jr. and Vampiro vs Ulises, Emilio Charles and Satanico (brawling Atlantis) Atlantis vs Dr. Wagner Jr. (Atlantis in a one on one brawl) Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Blue Demon Jr. vs Dandy, Texano and Super Muñeco (technical Atlantis) Atlantis vs Emilio Charles Jr. (title match Atlantis) Atlantis, Dandy and Ultimo Dragon vs Satanico, MS-1 and Pirata Morgan (Atlantis in a supporting role) Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Astro de Oro vs Espectro de Ultratumba, Espectro Jr. and Gran Markus Jr. (just a match I really like) Ranking the A luchadores:

I dunno, I feel like he's way behind Fuerza Guerrera, and that's just comparing him within his own subset of workers who are known for their insincere offers of handshakes.

Arkangel, Skandalo, Nitro and Loco Max vs Virus, Euforia, Raziel and Cancerbero, January 31 2012 Rudos vs rudos cibernetico between the Rebeldes Tuareg and the Cancerberos. Arkangel's technical side is interesting to try to pin down. He was always at least competent technically, but for a while he never seemed all that creative or enthusiastic when it came to holds and counters. At some point he started to wrestle more like a maestro, which you can see in his first exchange here. He eliminated Cancerbero with a complex hold and then got taken out by Virus with the same schoolboy counter that he used in the match with Gallo. Was that an Arkangel creation or a Virus spot that Arkangel later appropriated for himself? Probably unfair but it seems more like a Virus idea. I thought Arkangel actually outworked Virus, though. Fine cibernetico, but none of the matchups were breathtaking and the build to the Virus vs Loco Max final wasn't especially dramatic. Arkangel, Sangre Azteca and Violencia vs Ricky Marvin, Volador Jr. and Misterioso II, April 30 2004 The athleticism was off the page here in comparison to the last match. It was clear even in the holds, where they didn't put as much thought in but were darting in and out, whereas in the cibernetico they just sort of shuffled from position to position. The rudos didn't look like badasses and instead tried to match the tecnicos big move for big move, but the crowd was still hot when the tecnicos made their comeback. I've always liked Violencia. In my mind's eye he's a stocky Psicosis ripoff but here he was doing a Wolverine gimmick that seemed lost on the announcers. He got hit with a dive by Arkangel at the end, the first one I've seen him do since I last bitched about it. Arkangel worked well but didn't stick out from his teammates. Finishing up... I tend to categorize rudos as Type A, B or C. A's are natural leaders like Casas, Pierroth, Satanico. B's can lead or follow and it's equally natural either way (Fuerza, Charles, Pirata). C's are most natural as the second or third man on their team. A's aren't necessarily the best (actually most of my favorites are B's), but C's are generally more passive personalities, so if they want to stand out as greats then it has to be done with truly exceptional pure skill. Arkangel is a firm C, and although he was usually at least decent and stayed good for a long time, he was more of a good guy to have in a match than someone who could craft something special. There just weren't those touches of brilliance or intensity or drama that the great ones bring to their matches. In a way he never totally shook the trappings of an Arena Coliseo undercard rudo. He knew what to do to keep the match moving in the direction that it needed to go, but you could say that about countless workers, many of whom had much more notable talents. His most similar nominee is probably Hombre Bala. I give Arkangel the edge on technical ability and longevity. Hombre Bala had more personality and better top matches. I wouldn't scoff at someone who ranked Arkangel but I would wonder why they didn't at least nominate Hijo del Gladiador or someone like that. Obviously this wasn't the most inclusive look at a career of over thirty years, but I didn't have a lot of recommendations pointing me to his best stuff.

Arkangel, Loco Max and Skandalo vs Fuego, Pegasso and Rey Cometa, February 26 2010 Arkangel's team here was part of a faction called Rebeldes Tuareg or Guerreros Tuareg. It's not unusual for the first fall of a match to be as long as the other two combined, but they didn't do a good job of it. All three pairs got to exchange holds, and then they jumped right into a long finishing sequence. This didn't leave enough time for anything to build over the final two falls. If the holds had been good or the acrobatics exciting I maybe would have overlooked that, but the tecnicos moved slowly and there was a lot of sloppiness in general. Rey Cometa vs Arkangel in the first fall was particularly weak. Arkangel, Nitro and Hooligan vs Guerrero Maya, Angel de Oro and Angel de Plata, April 26 2010 I've never seen an Arena Puebla match in my life, I don't think. Despite two different teammates for Arkangel this was another Rebeldes Tuareg match. Everything was smoother and faster in this one, and the rudos did a good job controlling things in the second and then getting clowned in the third fall. In between low blow highspots they had some nasty looking double and triple teams. Arkangel did a good job getting the other tecnicos out of the ring so that the Rebeldes could isolate one, and he looked a little crisper than his teammates, but I didn't feel like he was driving the match or a standout on his team. The finishes all came a little fast, but that's not so bad when the match is going well.

Arkangel, Gran Markus Jr. and Astro Rey Jr. vs Pantera, Brazo de Oro and El Brazo, January 9 1996 This didn't do anything to set up Arkangel vs Pantera until the third fall, and when they finally faced each other Arkangel was way too close catching a springboard moonsault and basically spiked Pantera's head into the mat. Not much happening in the rest of the match. The sad part is that Arkangel looked fired up for this one, but I'm learning that late '90s Arkangel wasn't really capable of elevating a match on his own. Arkangel, Rencor Latino and Zumbido vs Tigre Blanco, Ringo Mendoza and Pantera, January 18 2000 Another title match buildup, this time featuring Arkangel vs Tigre Blanco. The clipping made it impossible to get a sense for how their program began, but in between the highspots you could tell that Arkangel had improved as a rudo in the four years since his feud with Pantera. Collapsing in fear when Tigre Blanco entered the ring or staggering around off his punches, stuff like that just wasn't part of Arkangel's game earlier. They didn't need two toprope frankensteiner spots, but at least the one with Arkangel and Tigre Blanco didn't take forever to set up. Arkangel and Skandalo vs Stuka Jr. and Fuego, October 9 2011 The Arena Coliseo parejas titles, eh? This went really long and never had the steady stream of smooth exchanges that I want from a team championship match. Arkangel applied some maestro style holds in the first fall but Fuego didn't have an answer for them, which made it look like Arkangel was just putting on a show rather than wrestling in a competitive match. I didn't get into it until the third fall, when they worked dramatic spots and had Fuego overcome a one on two disadvantage. They could have gotten more out of that. Instead Fuego quickly evened things up, and then Arkangel dominated him before losing on a rollup counter. The crowd was into it, so the match length and the comeback and the big spots all worked to make it feel like an epic victory to the fans, which is a lot more crucial than what I thought of it ten years later.

Arkangel, La Morgue and Guerrero del Futuro vs Super Astro, Mascara Magica and Tormenta Star, October 24 1998 This was from Masakre's brief run as a promoter. The show was called Guerra de Naciones and the concept was Mexican teams fighting foreign teams, but this match between Mexican squads was announced as a special demonstration of the national style of wrestling. This kind of standard six man match is Arkangel in his element, in my opinion. He can show off his technical side, his brawling side and his comical side, and it doesn't require a big dramatic performance from him. His technical matchup with Mascara Magica in the first fall was excellent, and then when the tide had turned he was throwing good looking punches and wicked headbutts. He also hurled Mascara over the guardrail in a nasty bump. The tecnico comeback could have gone on longer, but this wasn't a heated match and they won anyway, so good showing overall. I can't believe that Mascara Magica's push sputtered out around this time. He looked like Atlantis in this match, but either he wasn't over or the CMLL was just more interested in other guys. Arkangel, Felino and Guerrero de la Muerte vs Mr. Niebla, Super Astro and Solar, November 26 1996 Why does Arkangel have better chemistry trading holds with Mascara Magica than he does with Solar? Guerrero de la Muerte was on one of those post-unmasking kicks that sometimes happen, when a guy loses his mask and suddenly seems energized. He stomped Niebla into the Arena Coliseo floor, and Niebla fought back with a fire that I don't really associate with him. Arkangel gave another solid performance but to me Felino and Super Astro overshadowed him in the same kind of role. Astro started the tecnico return by fighting out of the corner with a boxing combo, and later he found a way to make his dancing fit into a brawl like this. Then he threw a drink onto Felino, who just stood there seething. It was a lot better than the over the top acting that I expected from him. Had the ending been better this might have been a contender for the 1996 CMLL top ten. Arkangel, Mocho Cota and Karloff Lagarde Jr. vs Pantera, Super Astro and Antifaz, January 16 1996 The appeal of a title match is to watch two of the sport's best technical wrestlers put their skill on display, or to see a blood feud get settled with a championship on the line. This buildup to a Pantera vs Arkangel match promised neither of those things. Arkangel's beatdown of Pantera went by rote, and Pantera didn't seem to have any interest in returning fire. He did catch Arkangel with a beautiful armdrag, but this was a match that required more than just a good job as a base from Arkangel. He also did that thing where he wins the match with a move that he used earlier. Even Super Astro didn't add much, although he did some more boxing, which left Cota stumbling around like a drunk, to paraphrase Andres Maroñas.

Really? See, that actually makes me respect Virus more, that he would go out and look like the most talented wrestler in the world and then try to undo all that. That's something out of the Fuerza playbook, maybe even beyond something Fuerza would do. Arkangel and Kenjiro vs Stream Killer and Harry la Marioneta, December 12 2009 I've watched Arkangel against Virus and I've watched him against Solar, but how would he fare wrestling Stream Killer on a tiny show in Guanajuato? Alas, it was not to be, for this Arkangel was just a local worker with the same name and Stream Killer was actually called Extreme Killer. I wanted to see Stream Killer in action. Arkangel, Thriller and Ice Killer vs Brazo de Plata, Mike Segura and Pantera I, March 1 2013 Much has been written about the storied career of Brazo de Plata, but no one has ever gone into depth about his heated feud with Ice Killer. You might think that it began when Porky wiped his crotch with his jacket and then threw it into Ice's face, but the way they'd already been talking to each other, I think it had to have started before that, with something much deeper, much more personal. There was a lot going on here. Fart noises, valets' butts getting slapped, small children getting slapped, Pantera I wrestling shortly after Luchawiki had changed his status from "died in 1988" to "alive." Arkangel didn't stand a chance. Mike Segura was dressed like a random crowd member. He actually tried to work wrestling spots in this match, and his reward was getting beaten up by Ice Killer's five year old son in the second fall. ***1/4. Arkangel, Skandalo and Sangre Azteca vs Gallo, Super Halcon Jr. and Triton, May 25 2014 This was part of the leadup to the Arkangel vs Gallo match and a chance for me to see what Arkangel was like as head rudo rather than henchman. The match wasn't bad, but Triton and Sangre Azteca smoked the Arkangel-Gallo wrestling in the first fall, and they never really got much heat on Arkangel. The announcers called it youth vs experience, but they wrestled like equals. Then when the rudos took over, the exchanges were like what you'd get when the tecnicos were in control. No doubleteams, no beatdowns, just one on one matchups of throwing the guy into the ropes and hitting a move. They did use a lot of low blows, but they were designed to be impressive spots somehow. Is this what wrestling became? Not Arkangel's fault if that's the case but this was a missed chance for him to show me something, which maybe ties back to Rah's point a few posts back. It's interesting that this site used to have debates about whether wrestling was getting better because of the improved athleticism. The spots here were more athletically demanding, but the workers moved more slowly than they did in the '90s, on their feet and on the mat.

Arkangel/Nitro/Mogur vs Virus/Texano Jr./Leono, February 24 2006 This was part of a Mogur vs Leono feud so Arkangel was in henchman mode. If you've never seen Leono wrestle, just imagine Evan Karagias doing a sitout hiptoss. Arkangel worked holds with Virus and it wasn't anything special. Their second matchup didn't go any better, and really Nitro did the more exciting stuff with the little maestro. Once Mogur took over Arkangel's performace picked up. He blasted both tecnicos off the apron, signalling a change in tone and keeping them out of the ring so Mogur could get his shots in uninterrupted. Unfortunately Mogur wasn't any more charismatic than in his prime, and Arkangel seemed more vicious when he would occasionally swoop in on Leono. Of course he did a dive at the end. His dives aren't even that great, but he always gets to do them. The finish was Tigre Hispano conveniently missing a foul by his son in law and counting the three. The sound was off, but I think between falls Dos Caras Jr. gave the don't try this at home speech. Because I really need to be told not to emulate Alberto del Rio. Arkangel/Rey Bucanero/Halcon Negro vs Mascara Magica/Olimpico/Tony Rivera, September 26 1997 More henchman stuff from Arkangel, this time for Olimpico vs Halcon Negro. That feud didn't get blown off until a year later, so I guess they were trying to recreate the Felino vs Ciclon Ramirez strategy for a mask match between midcard wrestlers. There were some interesting things here, but Halcon didn't really beat Olimpico up as much as he just unloaded a bunch of big moves on him. A top rope hiptoss doesn't have me hoping to see Olimpico get his revenge. Arkangel press slammed Mascara into the apron a few times but didn't stand out much. Arkangel/Panico/Guerrero de la Muerte vs Aguila Solitaria/Bronce/Filoso, August 13 1993 Panico on TV in 1993! Obviously I had to see this. His gimmick at this time was that he was the modern phantom of the opera, and as such he came out to the overture in the mask and the cape. He was very good here. His technical stuff against Bronce was nice, but what stood out was that he was more violent and more of a prick than Mogur or Halcon Negro had been in their feature matches, even though Panico wasn't feuding with any of these guys. Arkangel wrestled more passively than he would just a few years later, coming in to pick his spots while his journeyman partners led the match. He made sure to get his dive in, though, you can be sure of that. He also did that kneedrop spot that I thought was so clever when he did it in a match twenty four years after this. Filoso was Nitro from that 2006 match, and he's still active on the CMLL roster today. You can never tell who will make it. I liked this, but I liked it in a 1993 undercard Arena Coliseo match kind of way. If you're not a fan of the era and the promotion you'd probably find it boring.

Okay, that's hilarious. Poor Arkangel. Even if I end up rating him at about the same level you do, I'll probably end up with a more favorable opinion of him just because I don't have any expectations for him, high or low. Talented worker who doesn't always run with the ball would still be a net positive for me rather than a disappointment.

Arkangel, Scorpio Jr. and Mogur vs Super Astro, Mascara Magica and Olimpico, October 4 1996 This was just something interesting that caught my eye rather than something I watched for Arkangel, but I came out of it more impressed by him than in any other match so far. Everyone worked hard and they put together an excellent little pure six man. Mascara Magica's 1996 bears a lot of similarities to Angel Azteca's 1990, with him coming into his own as a worker as he received a big push, and his exchanges with Arkangel were some of his most brilliant all year. Then Arkangel worked Olimpico, another worker on the rise, and it was the same thing. Both guys looked like future stars. Arkangel doing powerbombs and superplexes as just standard rudo offense rather than as highspots was weird, but maybe it was his way of getting noticed. Super Astro was a pro. By this point he was more veteran than star, and he had no problems keeping up with the younger guys or jobbing clean to another wrestler CMLL was high on, Scorpio Jr. You wouldn't think (or I wouldn't, anyway) that Mogur would be in one of the best CMLL matches of 1996, but there it is. Arkangel, Fuerza Guerrera and Black Panther vs Fiera, Mascara Magica and Solar, March 26 1996 The same kind of six man as the one with Mogur, just not as good. For the early part of the match with technical work and the tecnicos in control, they were trying hard but nothing was clicking. They fought through it and eventually had a fairly good match with Fiera vs Fuerza as the focus. Arkangel comes off as a mechanic rather than a brawler, so when the technical stuff falls flat he doesn't end up looking as good, but he had his moments. I liked when he slipped on the ropes while celebrating. He got back on and didn't even sell it, which made it look even more real. Maybe it was, I don't know.

Arkangel vs Solar, October 17 2000 The first fall was either extremely brief or extremely clipped. Second fall started off slow and I was thinking this was a waste of a Solar title match, but they got me back into it by genuinely working holds during a part of the match where the wrestlers have usually moved past that. Solar's stuff I thought looked really crisp here, maybe thanks to Arkangel? The third fall felt dramatic despite some clipping, although the finish was weird, with Arkangel getting the win with a move that Solar had kicked out of earlier. Was it Arkangel importing some Japanese psychology? I don't know but it felt a little flat. Arkangel vs Angel Azteca, December 5 2003 Three fall match crammed into a twelve minute Youtube video. They showed replays between falls and everything. Kind of a pitiful fall for the mask of Angel Azteca. He looked good here though. Arkangel, Nitro and Dr. X vs Tigre Blanco, Virus and Safari, March 21 2003 This was a good match. It wasn't spectacular enough or possessed enough of a singular focus to rise to greatness, but it was good all the way through. I assume this is something that everyone else already knew but WOW was Virus a great tecnico. When he faced Arkangel in the first fall it reminded me of Dandy vs Casas a little bit. It was funny when Arkangel shushed the crowd as he was in the process of fouling Safari. He looked good in these three matches but doesn't jump off the screen as an athlete or a performer. Comparatively, Virus I couldn't help but look for throughout the match.

Arkangel never stood out from the glut of talented athletic rudos to me. I do remember liking the Felino/Arkangel/Halcon Negro vs Rebeldes de Jalisco rudo vs rudo matches, but all I've seen is from the '90s. I don't know what the pimped Arkangel matches are so this will just be grabbing at random stuff. Arkangel vs Gallo, January 28 2014 Decent wrestling and they did a good job of making the last few minutes exciting. It felt like the typical one fall CMLL match where they jump straight from the early portion of the match to the final third. Maybe it was more like a WWE TV match, and Arkangel's holds in the middle of the match were sort of like the holds that the face elbows out of in WWE and not real submission attempts. I didn't like how he kept dropping them to go to a different hold, and there wasn't much separating the tecnico from the rudo here, but it was fine. Arkangel vs Gallo, June 24 2014 One of the matches used to nominate Arkangel. The first fall wasn't that great, with Arkangel wrestling like a tecnico and doing an unnecessary dive instead of building to the finish from the holds, but the rest of the match could have fit right in with '90s CMLL. Arkangel hit a great kneedrop that got some heat, and then a second missed and put Gallo in control. That was smart and simple. His counter to the schoolboy was cool too. All match the announcers referred to him as "el Maestro Arkangel" as if it were his name, and he started to look like a maestro with some of the moves he pulled out in the third fall. On the other hand his chops looked weak, and what kind of maestro needs interference and a ref distraction to win? Weird that they put the fifty year old man over a rising star, maybe that's just modern CMLL. Good match, but it never felt like it was the two best technicians alive nor for the most important belt in the world. Arkangel vs Tigre Blanco, January 25 2000 I realize that it's hard to fit a three fall title match into fifteen minutes, but this was nothing. It was interesting to see Arkangel do the same kneedrop spot here that he did fourteen years later. I'd thought that was an on the spot moment. Tigre Blanco was in an awesome short match with Americo Rocca just the year before, so I was hoping for something good here.

I bet if you made a Youtube playlist of Angel Azteca matches, something like half of it would be from the first six months of 1990. For him to rate as a truly great wrestler he'd have to have been operating on a level that few others have reached. His match with Dandy is still my pick for the best match I've ever seen, but even with that he's still just a borderline top five guy for 1990 CMLL. I don't even know if he stands out among similar briefly pushed tecnicos. Ciclon Ramirez had about the same quality of performances but with much lesser workers. He was probably better than Mogur. Him vs Mascara Magica is a tossup, and who ever talks about Mascara Magica? The AAA run is the best bet for finding stuff that could sneak him into a top 100 list. That Blue Panther match no one talks about, a title match with the Destructores... By the time of his second CMLL return in 1998 he was having trouble keeping up physically. A very gifted technical wrestler who loved showing that side of his game in his prime, but not a maestro type with his holds and didn't try to become one even after he lost his mask. Good Angel Azteca to watch: AA vs Emilio Charles: maybe the best missile dropkick ever AA, Dandy and Jalisco vs Bestia Salvaje, Espectro Jr. and Espectro de Ultratumba: Angel Azteca's brawling and technical work on display against Espectro Jr. AA, Winners and Misterioso vs Katana, Volador and Solar: long Angel Azteca vs Solar duel to start AA and Winners vs Tony Arce and Rocco Valente: title match from AAA with Angel Azteca looking excellent against Arce AA, Super Elektra and Vaquero Romo vs Panterita del Ring, Shu el Guerrero, and Black Dragon: typical Promo Azteca mishmash but Angel Azteca on fire in the first fall

Since you're approaching its air date, you might enjoy this. Not something that moves his standing one way or the other in the annals of great workers, but a nice look at how the company presented Fuerza at that time.

It's a two way street though. One of the ugly moves in that match was Dragon's handspring tope, a move that connected perfectly in his Japan matches with Fiera and Bestia Salvaje. Was he more reckless against Satanico? Possible, but look at how Bestia flies into position to take that move. Could you even imagine Satanico doing that? He wasn't as good a base as those guys were. Really the biggest problem with that match was that it was mostly a showcase for Satanico's 1980s offense, which wasn't going to pop a crowd in 1992 Japan. He also couldn't bump like Dragon's other touring opponents, his biggest being getting chucked off the second rope. Anyway, I don't know why I let Satanico praise get me so wound up. I was needlessly snide about it earlier, sorry.

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Dandy vs Dragon is from Dandy's March 1992 tour of SWS and has been on Youtube for like five years.

I would never have thought about it that way, but you're right. Talisman is maskless, so it can't be before September 1984. (The Fantasticos are all masked, so it can't be from after February 1986.)

This is a very close one. Instinctively I figured that it had to be Fuerza, but when I give it some thought, Pirata is probably the better brawler, even if Fuerza holds his own there. Pirata is probably better working with a team, both as a leader (Bucaneros) and as a follower, although again this is something Fuerza does well too. Fuerza stayed better for longer, I think, but Pirata probably has the stronger taped output from the '80s. They're about equal in great matches, maybe edge to Pirata. So that's almost everything, and it looks like if anything Pirata's out in front. The gamebreaker for me is that I think Fuerza was a couple of levels above Pirata as a technical wrestler. Pirata could hold his own there, but it wasn't that far above the way someone like Perro Aguayo could hold his own there, scraping by to justify holding a belt. Fuerza vs Pantera is a performance that was beyond Pirata, IMO. He has some good title matches (in 1991 he worked a very good thirty minute match with Mascara Sagrada of all people) but I can't imagine being excited for the actual technical work, and that's probably my favorite thing in wrestling. Win to Fuerza, but it's closer than I thought going in.

My vote goes to Kung Fu.

Last time's #29 vs the reigning champ. Two men often maligned as formula workers. Both of them were productive for a long time. Both of them traveled all over, and made even their smalltown stops count. Both of them have great matches captured with handhelds. Is Santo one of the wrestlers who could potentially knock off the man? Santo thread Flair thread

Not to get too dark, but I can't recall any Bret Hart matches that resulted in someone dying. The arguments for Rey's case always seem quantity based. It's great that he's the best WWE TV match worker of all time, but is that such a great thing to be? When I see someone called the best squash match worker of all time or whatever it always sounds like a backhanded compliment. Best WWE TV match worker is a step up from that, but if they were capable of dropping classics then you'd be talking about the classics. Halloween Havoc, classic. After that...maybe I need to rewatch the Psicosis match from AAA? There just aren't that many Rey matches that have entered into legend. The one that often gets cited as Rey's best TV match is the one with Eddy from 2005. I don't know if that's a level above Bret vs Savage, Bret vs 123 Kid, or Bret vs washed up nobody can get anything out of him anymore Bobby Backlund. If you're making a list of TV matches, Rey's list is going to run away with it, but Bret's could hang in there for a little bit, when it's best vs best.

Never thought of Dragon as a sloppy worker myself. But if you're going to knock Orton for being second best in most of his greatest matches then you have to do the same for Dragon, right? What even is his best performance, the 1996 PPV against Mysterio? I think if I saw that a wrestler I really liked was matched up with Dragon, I'd be excited to watch it. If I saw a wrestler I liked matched up with Orton, I'd be curious but I wouldn't necessarily expect something good.