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Some guy just uploaded a few episodes of TV from Arena Coliseo Guadalajara in 1992. One of the matches uploaded was a Dandy vs Bestia Salvaje mano a mano that is listed at 4.5 stars on thecubsfan's site (from Lucha Libre Weekly?), a listing that has always jumped out at me. It's not a 4.5 star match, but I'd never have guessed that was something that would see the light of day. I've seen only one other guy who had '90s Guadalajara TV and that was just a few episodes from 1997.

Have you ever wished for an alternate universe in which Vince McMahon decides that this Triple H shit just doesn't cut it and turns instead to Fuerza Guerrera to carry the federation into the new millennium as his top heel? Okay, maybe not, that's pretty specific, but this was like Fuerza auditioning for a WWF spot with the crowd brawling, interference, low blows, ref shenanigans, use of props, blood...it was even a onefall match, none of that outdated NWA crap. Segura nullified Fuerza's early beatdown pretty quickly, and soon Fuerza had to yank his mask down just to keep it over his face while reeling around the ring. He was in serious trouble early. His forehead was bleeding and he was taking some big shots, and when he was able to regain some semblance of control over things Segura started claiming he was fouled. The old trick! Fuerza hadn't even done anything, but the crowd was calling for the DQ just because of who he was. Even Segura's second got into the act with a cheapshot. You know that Fuerza's going to put up a fight when it comes to his mask, though. He and his second tried this complex interference spot that bamboozled the ref but didn't fool Segura. Maybe he missed the spot, but regardless it added to the idea that this wasn't Fuerza's night and instead he had to break the scorpion on his own. As the match went on you got to see just what it took to win the mask of Fuerza Guerrera. He started breaking up pinfalls with low blows (hey, if Segura's going to accuse him anyway, he might as well give him the real thing). He busted Segura open and worked him over on the outside just like Segura had done to him. He crushed Segura with a massive senton off the top. Okay, no, he actually missed when he tried that. Even so, the whole thing seemed to wear on Segura, who faded a bit down the stretch. Fuerza stumbling over to the ropes after big moves was almost certainly intentional, but some of Segura's sloppiness might have been legitimate slipups. Either way it was clear that his hot run from the first five minutes was long in the past. The finish could have been more dramatic, but I liked Fuerza holding down Segura by his hair during the winning threecount. Hey Mike, at least that's not a problem you'll have in your next match. I liked how this went from Fuerza having everything working against him early on to willing his way back into the match. It gave the appearance of a guy who really should have lost but simply refused to give up his mask like that, and ended up surviving thanks to his experience, resourcefulness, and grittiness. This was the assend of a relevos suicidas that didn't make the Youtube video, but just from what's there this is my favorite thing I've seen from 1999 Mexico.

Satomura vs Ray (or Lee Ray) was a strong match. The holds and counters they did at the start were really good. The commentators way oversold it, and the wrestlers sort of just stopped and jumped into the next part of the match, but I like seeing a 2018 match with smooth, skillful technical wrestling that could have taken place in 1991. Anyway, this reminded me a bit of the Taue vs Kobashi match I watched for this, in that it was a good, exciting fight that I'd have liked more if the final stretch hadn't been all about two moves. Finisher vs finisher is just a pat, uncreative way to wrestle, IMO. The first ten or so minutes were more interesting to me. The crowd was into the Death Valley bomb vs Gori bomb, but they were also receptive to the stuff from before the wrestlers whittled down what they were doing. Another thing that struck me was how this felt like something that could have been wrestled between WWE men. I don't watch enough modern stuff to have an opinion on the homogenization of wrestling but this would be a point in favor of that. That's not good or bad, just an observation. I was amused by the ring announcer doubling as a ringside photographer.

Ha, that review actually made me think more highly of Volador, just because I remember thinking when he slipped that a real rudo would have played it for laughs. But if he wasn't a rudo then there was no reason for him to do that.

Volador vs Mascara Dorada was a onenote match and a firm reminder of why I don't try to keep up with modern CMLL. It was like the third fall of a regular match, but instead of a climax it was the entire match and stretched out to fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes of two counts, that's too much for me. Volador spent most of the match grinning like a dumbass. Hey, I like guys with charisma but the guy was wrestling fifty-fifty, not working MD over. Either he's an idiot or he's trying too hard, because nothing about the match made that make sense. Mascara Dorada's daredevil charisma appealed to me more. The spots were genuinely good and hit well, even if there wasn't much to the match other than the spots, but it was noticeable how they tried to start with a simple headlock into run the ropes spot and couldn't execute that properly. The crowd and the commentators were into it, so the stuff I'm focusing on says more about me than it does about the match. I'm sure that other than that toprope spot when Volador slipped and he had to climb back up to try it again (instead of improvising), everything about this match went exactly as the wrestlers would have liked. Fuck knows I'm not the intended audience for it.

For Grimmas, Lola Gonzalez vs Pantera Sureña, December 9 1988 (part two)

I'll take the week off, so instead of me being a middleman the two people I was trading with can just trade with each other.

Was Lethal doing an impression of somebody for his match with Carlitos? He came down to the ring looking like every guy from the early to mid 2000s who tried to be charismatic. Carlitos was just a guy who had a picture of himself on his pants. Those Flair chop spots in the corner looked awful, with Lethal simply moving over so that Carlitos could start hitting him. Then they did that neverending suplex reversal spot and I was like, "oh, they're going for comedy, I shouldn't be so hard on them," but everything after that just felt like a generic indy match. I liked that clothesline Carlitos did where he landed on the apron, and the ref rolling over to emphasize the closeness of a two count was neat. Lethal bumped well for that crossbody. Headcheese can have the same match I gave him a month ago.

I want to play. Austin taught them that they need to have a heel making the matches and acting as the top face's enemy, even for guys it doesn't fit (Rock, Cena). Hogan taught them that being the good guy means whatever you do is by definition right and fair. Fifteen years later he taught them that fans want to see the stars of the past treated like they're just as good as if not better than the stars of today. Mysterio taught them that you gotta have a Mexican around, all times.

EDIT: No, I think I'll choose something different for Tim Evans. How about Panterita del Ring vs Megatron, 1990s? If that's too long or the video quality is too bad for you, then you can go with Negro Casas/Cien Caras/Arandu vs Panterita del Ring/Black Magic/Centurion Negro (also 1990s).

Colon vs Ayala was one hell of a war. I liked Colon's splitlegged selling of punches but what really surprised me was how well Ayala sold. Writhing in pain in a figure four and tumbling to the floor in exhaustion aren't really what I expect from a big muscleman. The figure four section in general was really smart. I had no idea how Ayala would get out, especially with the commentary team talking about how Colon didn't have to break, and then they made it a fall, with the ref not starting his count until Colon let go of the hold. Colon came up with a cool escape too. The last few minutes were a bit repetitive, with Ayala punching over and over, but I guess that was sort of the point. Colon had nothing to fight back with at that stage, so the beating could theoretically have gone on until he was injured permanently. My biggest complaint was that the brass knuckles spot would have worked better in a match in which disqualification was an option, but no big deal. Badass match.

I've been trying to watch these a couple times before commenting on them, but I'm so far behind that I'm just gonna share my initial thoughts on Taue vs Kobashi. It was more complex than Hansen vs Williams, which was basically just a back and forth part, a Hansen sells while Williams beats him up part and a finishing run. Here Kobashi was making a spirited comeback at like four minutes into a twenty one minute video (although apparently that would make it the thirteen minute mark of the match, because of the clipping). I'd read about how Kobashi was a ham and he really was making some exaggerated faces, but you can't deny that the crowd was behind him. There weren't a whole lot of neat ideas here, in the sense that they didn't try anything creative physically. In spite of that, I was liking this the most of the three matches I've seen for this so far, just because I thought they were working a better match. The homestretch felt like a finisher heavy WWE match. Chokeslam, kickout, chokeslam countered, chokeslam countered into a move that gets countered into a chokeslam, kickout... it was too repetitive and convenient. I say that but I was still interested in seeing if Taue was going to blow a match that he really should have won, just from how dominant he was throughout, so even though stylistically I didn't like that part it managed to keep my attention. For Boss Rock: Ciclon Ramirez vs Javier Cruz, June 10 1994 (Youku was giving me issues when I tried to watch it there, so I ripped it and put it on Youtube)

For Headcheese, El Brazo/Brazo de Oro/Brazo de Plata vs Anibal/Ringo Mendoza/La Fiera, February 1 1991

Two big lugs seeing who can hit each other the hardest is a long way off from my aesthetic preferences for wrestling, so I can't say I went in expecting to enjoy Williams vs Hansen. Now I imagine the average human being would say that two big lugs seeing who can hit each other the hardest is an exact description of professional wrestling, and I don't really have any counter to that, but whatever. The first six minutes or so of them just slugging it out bored the hell out of me the first time I watched this. I was looking for some kind of story to follow and instead it was just a slow back and forth brawl. Watching it again I liked it more as I sort of got a feel for how each guy was waiting for the other to finally crack, but it still went on awhile and didn't have anything that stood out other than Williams putting Hansen in a wristlock and headbutting him. When Hansen started to sell this got really good. Williams' specific attacks didn't even matter that much, Hansen just bled, fell over, struggled to get up, did whatever it took. I liked when he flopped over the railing and the fans looked at him like beachgoers gawking at some creature that washed ashore. He kept fighting back like he had in the first part, but now Williams was responding immediately and refusing to let him get back in the match. Got right in Hansen's face and taunted him too. The final third was fine. I'd have liked the finish more had Hansen not done that exact counter a couple of minutes earlier. Good match that overcame the doubts I had going in.

Yamazaki/Kazama vs Kansai/Saito had a bunch of neat technical ideas that grabbed me more than anything else in the match. Yamazaki at one point couldn't get her opponent up for a double underhook suplex, so instead she dropped down and turned it into a hold I'd never seen before. Saito got out of a toehold by going for an enzuigiri from her back. Kazama avoided being placed on the top rope by kicking off into a headlock takeover. The plot of the match didn't really have a hook for me. The longhaired team seemed to have better teamwork, and when they won with a doubleteam I was proud of myself for seeing that, but I have no idea if that's actually what they were going for. They dominated most of what was shown and there wasn't a whole lot to worry about from their point of view. Maybe that was in the part that got clipped. So there was some quality wrestling here but it didn't feel like something that strove to be looked back on by the end of the year, let alone almost thirty years later. For NintendoLogic: Hijo del Santo/La Parka/Octagon vs Santo Negro/Psicosis/Eddy Guerrero, February 19 1995

Edger, I don't have a lot in my arsenal to recommend other than stuff from Mexico, so the least I can do is keep it short (my number one choice was a 41:07 Youtube video because I remember you posting something about the CMLL Welter title, but I don't want to do that to someone on my first time doing this). Americo Rocca vs Kid Guzman, April 27 1999

Oooh, I suppose I should list that stuff for me... I'll watch whatever, no limits or preferences, but all I have to work with is basic internet sites. No subscriptions or anything.

I'll play.

How else would you describe large swaths of the Konnan HOF bio?

Some missing ones: Satanico/Pirata Morgan/MS-1 vs Pierroth Jr./Jaque Mate/Masakre **** (CMLL February 21 1992) El Dandy vs Negro Casas **** (CMLL July 3 1992) Emilio Charles Jr./Negro Casas/Bestia Salvaje vs Atlantis/Lizmark/Ultimo Dragon **** (CMLL July 31 1992) Negro Casas vs Ultimo Dragon **** (CMLL August 28 1992) Negro Casas vs Ultimo Dragon **** (CMLL March 26 1993) Atlantis/Dandy/Chris Jericho vs Mano Negra/Javier Cruz/Norman Smiley **** (CMLL July 9 1993) Negro Casas vs La Fiera ****1/4 (CMLL October 1 1993) Blue Panther vs El Mariachi ****1/2 (AAA October 30 1994) Konnan/Louie Spicolli vs Eddy Guerrero/Art Barr ****1/2 (AAA November 1 1994) Felino vs Pantera **** (CMLL December 27 1994) These are all from the Observer although I don't know if they're all Meltzer's ratings (you can tell from his writeup of the Casas vs Fiera match that he didn't actually see it for instance). There might be others missing, I mostly just went looking to confirm ratings for matches I was pretty sure got four stars.

I never got what the Goldberg vs Jericho feud was supposed to do for Goldberg. If Jericho can't beat Malenko, Rey, or Juvi then no one's going to be wondering if he'll be the one to give Goldberg a loss.

Assuming these questions were being asked in earnest... Some holds being more punishing than others is not something unique to this style. Hulk Hogan's legdrop is the most obvious American example of this. In this match, the only immediate submission comes from the nudo lagunero, which was known as Blue Panther's favorite finishing hold (not sure if Warrior was acknowledged as Panther's relative at this point). Not surprising that it would be more effective than an STF or figure four. Even then, sometimes a hold is cinched in perfectly and sometimes it is not. Sometimes a wrestler would rather give up quickly in the first or second fall. I cannot read Dandy's mind from twenty plus years ago, but the headlocks in the second fall felt like something that Jim Ross would have described as a veteran trying to control the pace of the match. He was down a fall, he had been outwrestled both on the ground and off the ropes in the first fall, and he needed to dictate the pace. That was precisely how that fall ended up playing out, with everything flowing from the headlock, even if I thought it could have gone on longer and Dandy could have scored a more decisive pinfall. Did Dandy attack Warrior's arm? I remember him using the DDT and kicking Warrior hard in the back before using the figure four, but it has been a while since I watched this. The figure four was treated as a big part of the match. Warrior emerged from it fine, but Dandy had injured his own leg while applying it and keeping it on as the ref tried to break it, and the rest of the match had the intrigue of whether Dandy's leg would give out on him, especially after the moonsault from Warrior. This was a title change that was supposed to put Warrior over big, which is why I'm guessing they went for a finish in which he outwrestled Dandy rather than an opportunistic one in which he attacked an injured body part. I can see where the Flair vs Steamboat comparisons would come from (headlocks, pinfall attempts after chops), but qualitywise I think this is more like Dandy's match with Javier Llanes than Dandy vs Angel Azteca or Dandy vs Negro Casas, which are the ones that usually get put on the Flair vs Steamboat level.

Holy shit, no, that's an awesome upload.

A lot of this I don't think is right. First of all, I don't really get how ranking wrestlers is like ranking dishes just by looking at each dish. Wrestling is supposed to be consumed just by looking at it. Fans aren't supposed to have a deeper experience than that. I don't see how that ties into the food analogy. When you see some article like "We tried every major fast food burger--see which one ranks best!" it never goes into detail beyond what's on the burger, how it's presented, what it tastes like. There's no behind the scenes, here's how it's made information, just the things any consumer can sense when they buy it. I joined this site during the big ranking project, and even though I didn't vote and barely made any comments I knew that there were plenty of people talking about how they weren't going on conventionally great matches and taking risks on guys who didn't have much on tape. Arn Anderson made the top twenty, didn't he? We don't have as much information as those who actually participate in the matches, that's true, but it's not like the exercise was an attempt to determine who had objectively contributed the most to quality professional wrestling in its history. If the project had been more like that and required participants to cite arguments with opinions of other wrestlers, it would have gotten a hell of a lot less participation. Probably less interest in the results too. Even then, why should I care about Chris Jericho's opinion of Ric Flair when he's never stepped in the ring with Mick McManus? No one was claiming to know more than those people. They were making the best list they could, and most people wouldn't have done so if theirs would have been the only list and their biases wouldn't have had any other ballots to balance them out. I think anyone could tell it was halfway between "greatest wrestler ever" and "wrestler I most enjoy watching" and that the end result would always skew towards certain styles. That can be frustrating, but judging one style as subjectively less enjoyable than another isn't a whole lot different from judging one wrestler's bumping style as subjectively less enjoyable than another's.

Is there a message board on the entire internet in which the word "comeuppance" is used more than it is here?